Salvation requires belief in Mary's Perpetual VIRGINITY?

[blossom02]

^ As a NON-christian I dont think the perpetual virginity is realistic, unless Joseph was gay. If you are a catholic, please answer the question. Thanks.

As a man do you think it would be possible to live your life in a home with your mother, sister, cousin, sister-in-law or daughter without having sex with one or all of them.

I think if you can visulize not having sex with them you can understand joseph and his great respect for Mary.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Actually they did - remember all 120 present with Mary and the Apostles were called Jesus’ ‘brothers’. If they all were His brothers then of necessity the writer of Acts is calling Mary their mother.

Acts 1:13-14
*When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew , James the son of Alphaeus , and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. *
No, the apostles were not called ‘brothers’. The Apostles prayed ALONG with the women and Jesus’ brothers. the ‘brothers’ could either refer to biological siblings or cousins.

 

[AgnosTheist]

I don’t belive the angel would have taken Joseph for a fool. If he had only said “Take the child” Mary would have come along anyway. However the angel tells Joseph to take BOTH of them. Case and point when God spoke to Abraham he told him to go forth to the land he will reveal unto him. God makes no mection Sarai, Lot, Tereh, etc, however they all went with Abraham.

The baby needed his mum. So both must go.

 

[AgnosTheist]

As a man do you think it would be possible to live your life in a home with your mother, sister, cousin, sister-in-law or daughter without having sex with one or all of them.

psychologically, a totally unrelated boy & girl who grows up together in a home would not be attracted to each other. now put two attracted strangers (or people who grew apart) in the same bed, its gonna be hot! oooh lala!

 

[LilyM]

Acts 1:13-14
When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew , James the son of Alphaeus , and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
No, the apostles were not called ‘brothers’. The Apostles prayed ALONG with the women and Jesus’ brothers. the ‘brothers’ could either refer to biological siblings or cousins.

You stopped a bit early :nope:

Acts 1:15-16 : 'In those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number was about a hundred and twenty) and said ‘Brethren …’

All brothers of Jesus, all brothers of Peter, and all (spiritually) sons of Mary!!!

 

[LilyM]

psychologically, a totally unrelated boy & girl who grows up together in a home would not be attracted to each other. now put two attracted strangers (or people who grew apart) in the same bed, its gonna be hot! oooh lala!

Attracted strangers? Who and what says they were attracted? This ain’t a romance novel nor a chick-flick movie, you know. This is Jewish marriage 1 AD-style. Probably an arranged marriage. Physical attraction had nothing to do with it. Less than nothing. For all we know Joseph was ninety!

And you are seriously oversexed if you think it’s impossible for a man and woman to share a bed without having sex. Ask any married couple. For that matter prove that they shared a bed, it’s not a given that they did.

 

[AgnosTheist]

You stopped a bit early :nope:

Acts 1:15-16 : 'In those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number was about a hundred and twenty) and said 'Brethren …’

All brothers of Jesus, all brothers of Peter, and all (spiritually) sons of Mary!!!

‘Brethren’ is a bit different from ‘Brothers’. If it was the same then the author would have said ‘brethren’ in verse 14, instead of ‘brothers’.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Attracted strangers? Who and what says they were attracted? This ain’t a romance novel nor a chick-flick movie, you know. This is Jewish marriage 1 AD-style. Probably an arranged marriage. Physical attraction had nothing to do with it. Less than nothing. For all we know Joseph was ninety!

read:
While it is well known that traditional Judaism believes in the arranged marriage that is arranged by the parents, often with the aid of an intermediary matchmaker, the question must be asked:
Does Judaism believe in the love-match? In the traditional sources, both models exist
jafi.org.il/education/lifecycle/jewishlc/04-6.html

well its both an arranged marriage and a love-match.

And you are seriously oversexed if you think it’s impossible for a man and woman to share a bed without having sex.

its impossible for an attracted married couple not to have sex.

Ask any married couple. For that matter prove that they shared a bed, it’s not a given that they did.

ask any married couple if they had sex at least once.

 

[MHalsey]

read:
While it is well known that traditional Judaism believes in the arranged marriage that is arranged by the parents, often with the aid of an intermediary matchmaker, the question must be asked:
Does Judaism believe in the love-match? In the traditional sources, both models exist
jafi.org.il/education/lifecycle/jewishlc/04-6.html

well its both an arranged marriage and a love-match.

its impossible for an attracted married couple not to have sex.

ask any married couple if they had sex at least once.

This doesn’t prove your point. even if “love matches” were known to exist, there is no evidence that Mary and Joseph had one.

I think you need to stop projecting today’s sexualized values onto the relationship of Mary and Joseph. There is no proof in the Bible of anything you are asserting, and you base your whole argument on pure speculation.

 

[wanner47]

read:
its impossible for an attracted married couple not to have sex.

Really? It’s impossible? Men and women who are married and attracted to one another have *no control whatsoever *over their sexual urges?

And your proof of this is…?

 

[AgnosTheist]

This doesn’t prove your point. even if “love matches” were known to exist, there is no evidence that Mary and Joseph had one.

well its highly unlikely that neither felt an attraction when they got engaged.

I think you need to stop projecting today’s sexualized values onto the relationship of Mary and Joseph. There is no proof in the Bible of anything you are asserting, and you base your whole argument on pure speculation.

yikes, sexual attraction has been with us like forever. yo, FYI even in the bible there is an entire book dedicated to sexualism. look it up. my point have nothing to do with today.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Really? It’s impossible? Men and women who are married and attracted to one another have *no control whatsoever *over their sexual urges?

my point is, for attracted married couple its impossible not to have sex AT LEAST ONCE in their married lifetime. for that, there is no control. at least once.

 

[MHalsey]

well its highly unlikely that neither felt an attraction when they got engaged.

Again, you’re speculating.

yikes, sexual attraction has been with us like forever. yo, FYI even in the bible there is an entire book dedicated to sexualism. look it up. my point have nothing to do with today.

No kidding. But today’s society tends to over value the importance of sex in a relationship. You keep saying it’s impossible to not have sex if there is sexual attraction. Because of the influence of our oversexed society, you cannot accept that two people can remain chaste in a married relationship.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Again, you’re speculating.

everything about mary & joseph is speculation. but between your speculation & mine, mine is much more realistic.

You keep saying it’s impossible to not have sex if there is sexual attraction. Because of the influence of our oversexed society, you cannot accept that two people can remain chaste in a married relationship.

If you want ‘oversexed’, look no further than your bible. David, Jesus’ holy great grand daddy, peeped a beautiful bathing woman and called her over for some fun. His son solomon, another saintly figure, had hundreds of wives & equally numerous concubines. David’s son & daughter had incess. looks like oversexism runs in the family.

There is just no good reason why Joseph & Mary should not consumate their marriage.

 

[pa226p]

Look, I personally, after haven read articles on the apologetics web site believe Mary was a virgin after the birth of Christ. I hold Mary up as the Mother of Christ and know she was blessed by God.

I have a hard time with my fellow Catholics who seem too talk more about Mary and how they feel about Mary then they do the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Remember, it was “take up your cross and follow me,” not follow Mary…. To say we know every detail from the time of Christ is impossible… and to say if you do not agree one-hundred percent of everything the Church says you’re not truly a Christian is ridicules. Of course you must believe in the basic beliefs the Church concerning baptism and so-on….

I will not argue with the Church, if the Church says that believing in the ever virgin Mary is part of faith, then so bee it, I believe it anyway. I love defending the faith, not because I want to be the correct one in a discussion, it is because I do not want someone to be for ever separated from God for all of eternity.

This gift of ever lasting life is great! I personally want to see everyone go to heaven and I hate the way most of the blogs read… they seem to be more argumentative then helpful…. I personally fear the Lord because I am a sinner and I know I do not deserve his forgiveness.

The only thing I strive for is too truly understand what the Church is instructing. The Church is our guide to life given to us by Christ. I would never be a teacher because it was not a gift given to me by God, he instead led me too something else which was in his plan. I guess I replied to this thread to drive home the fact our main focus is on Christ and once we realize this, everything else falls into place.

 

[paarsurrey]

If you dont believe in the perpetual virginity, your faith in Jesus and your good works are for nothing? If you dont believe in the perpetual virginity, you cannot be saved?

Hi

I as an Ahmadi Muslim believe that Jesus was born without Mary having been touched by a man. Salvation of man however does not depend on virignity of Mary, both have no corelationing. Salvation as I understand depends on leaving the sinful life and total submission to the will of GodAllahYHWH.

Thanks

 

[MHalsey]

everything about mary & joseph is speculation. but between your speculation & mine, mine is much more realistic.

Only in your own mind.

If you want ‘oversexed’, look no further than your bible. David, Jesus’ holy great grand daddy, peeped a beautiful bathing woman and called her over for some fun. His son solomon, another saintly figure, had hundreds of wives & equally numerous concubines. David’s son & daughter had incess. looks like oversexism runs in the family.

Let’s look at your examples,

David and Bathsheba - David is warned by the Prophet Nathan that death has entered his house and his son will die. This son was the one Bathsheba was pregnant with, which caused David to have his friend Uriah killed.

David’s children - Amnon was egged on by his friend, and with his help set a trap for Tamar. He was wrong though in thinking Tamar would give in, so he raped her. This is not sex or even incest. This also brought about the rebellion of Absalom after he avenged the attack on his sister.

Solomon’s own troubles with many wives took a turn that the entire nation felt. Considering one of his wives got him to stop worshiping God and to worship false idols. God’s punishment for this was the division of Israel. If he had stuck with one wife, maybe the nation of Israel grows stronger.

There is just no good reason why Joseph & Mary should not consumate their marriage.

Except that, Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. Joseph knows this. Now would you yourself be able to even consider sleeping with the spouse of the Holy Spirit?? Our God, as he has said himself, is a jealous God. Jealous in all things that belong to him. I’d be willing to bet that includes Mary.

Joseph’s only reason for taking Mary into his home was to protect her, not so he could have sex with her.

 

[AgnosTheist]

total submission to the will of GodAllahYHWH.

according to half of the catholics here, it is the will of Allah that people must believe that Mary never had sex.

 

[paarsurrey]

it is the will of Allah that people must believe that Mary never had sex.

Hi

I think it is only a misconception of the half Catholics as stated by you and it is no essential requirement of the faith.

Thanks

 

[bankerdavid]

Thanks Genesis.

Anyone else? Right now catholics are 50/50 on the issue.

What **Catholics think **is not at issue. What the Church teaches is. If you are a true Catholic, you believe it. You may question how it can be so, but you must believe it. If you know that the Church teachings come directly from God, you must believe it, or you are not in communion with the church. So, as disappointing as it is to see more than half of the Catholics answering not believing a teaching of the Church, it doesn’t mean that the Church’s teaching may not be followed. The same results would come if you questioned the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. You also have the same situation regarding abortion. That does not make the Church wrong, because God can never be wrong.