Salvation requires belief in Mary's Perpetual VIRGINITY?

[AgnosTheist]

Others, like myself, have to become believers (Like Thomas). Jesus did not love Thomas any less than the rest, but we are all called to believe the Truth.

HIGH FIVE MY FELLOW THOMASIAN TYPE!

 

[Mannyfit75]

really, whats so uncharitable about that? barren couples are not uncommon.

It’s uncharitable to suggest that Joseph was barren. He wasn’t barren. Some of our tradition in the East believed that Joseph had children prior to being married to Mary. You may not know it but suggesting anything of a sexual overtone on your side, doesn’t produce any fruit.

If you wish to know our Catholic faith, you ought to listen. This is the last warning before I put you in the ignore box.

only by allusion (or a wide stretching of interpretation). rather, even protestants agree with the catholic opinion that the woman is the church…

The woman is the Church but if you interpret the passage as individuals and person. You clear see the Red Dragon as the Devil, the Male-Child as Jesus, and the Woman as Mary. This is logical and make theological sense.

newadvent.org/bible/rev012.htm

you did not answer the question. are catholics required to believe in the rosary? ‘believe’, mon. not ‘pray’.

My answer:

NO! It is not required!

prayer TO the saints is not in the bible.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

thats not in the bible.

Second, I have had it with your stupid DOCTRINAL DANCE… the next uncharitable post you made, I will put you in my ignore box permanently.

I don’t go by the Bible Alone. You been here long enough to know that Catholics don’t go by the stupid erroneous fallacies doctrine of Bible Alone.

Peter had a sucessor. Linus is his successor followed by Ancletus, then Clement of Rome. You want to refute this read Esubius, the Christian historian.

 

[AgnosTheist]

NO! It is not required!

ouch my eyes.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Never in my either time I spend in here have I notice such ridicules questions in my entire life.

 

[Mannyfit75]

ouch my eyes.

Good I hope you go blind by your ignorance.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Good I hope you go blind by your ignorance.

charity! charity!

 

[ericss]

I think your quote got screwed up; it wasn’t me who said that!

Sorry! It was “Tantum ergo”. I think something got messed up when it asked me to re-log in.

Eric

 

[Mannyfit75]

charity! charity!

Frankly, Agnost Theist, I have had it with you. I tried to be patient with you but your questions are annoying and you don’t even try to understand the Catholic position. For once I am glad you are not a Catholic. Your lack of faith is proof of that. Like Darth Vader said, “I find your lack of faith disturbing.” If you are don’t at least try to under the Catholic Church position, or show any thing that is more honest. I’m putting you permanently on my ignore box. You are not worth my time.

I prefer to discuss Catholicism with those who open minds.

 

[newbetx]

yeah it was poorly worded as i did intend on implying ‘being informed’ by mentioning non-catholic christians.

and yeah what you said was basically what a number of catholics here said already.

so what do you think about all those non-catholic christians who have been informed? are they all rejecters of christ? how does that affect their afterlife? sure hell?

I am reminded of an event in my college years…

A Christian in the dorm was very tired of our antics. One day he held up the Bible and proclaimed “Your are now exposed to the Bible! You are now bound to live by it!”…

Well, for a bunch of pagans, that seemed absurd. We had a good laugh…

To understand the event today is quite different. I was no more or less bound to the the Truth after his declaration than I was before it.

We will believe what we want to believe. God alone will judge us. I don’t think the fact that one is not “there” yet guarantees anything one way or the other. Some here would will tell you there is a checklist. Some of us know we’ll just have to depend on His mercy.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Frankly, Agnost Theist, I have had it with you. I tried to be patient with you but your questions are annoying and you don’t even try to understand the Catholic position.

understanding is one thing, making sense of it is another. look at the polls, more than half of you folks dont agree with you.

believe me, i understand your position.

I’m putting you permanently on my ignore box. You are not worth my time.

god knows i’m at maximum honesty. but thats still not acceptable to you. so thats probably the best, just ignore me.

 

[Mannyfit75]

understanding is one thing, making sense of it is another. look at the polls, more than half of you folks dont agree with you.

believe me, i understand your position.

So the Catholics who deny revealed truths which the Catholic Church believed for over 2,000 yrs such as the perpetual virginity is not required for salvation? By this premise, the so called Catholics who voted no lied to themselves when they profess the Nicene Creed. “We Believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church…” Woah. So they have deceived themselves like those who believe Abortion is morally acceptible for cases of rape and incest?

I don’t know about you. But anything Catholic who denies all the teaching of the Catholic Church teaches especially the Perpetual Virginity either lacks proper Catechesis of the Faith or are just pure ignorant Catholics who don’t know any better.

My position is very clear. I believe in One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, whom Jesus Christ is the Head. I believe everything that the Holy Mother Church teaches especially she speaks on matters of Faith and Morals.

 

[jmcrae]

god knows i’m at maximum honesty. but thats still not acceptable to you. so thats probably the best, just ignore me.

Are you quite sure? “Honesty” does not equate to continual thrashing around in a state of on-going doubt.

Remember, St. Thomas only doubted once, before falling down on his knees and saying “My Lord and my God.”

 

[RebeccaJ]

understanding is one thing, making sense of it is another. look at the polls, more than half of you folks dont agree with you.

believe me, i understand your position.

god knows i’m at maximum honesty. but thats still not acceptable to you. so thats probably the best, just ignore me.

It is not the world that is absurd, nor human thought: the absurd arises when the human need to understand meets the unreasonableness of the world, when “my appetite for the absolute and for unity” meets “the impossibility of reducing this world to a rational and reasonable principle.”

Poor Sisyphus.

high five.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Are you quite sure? “Honesty” does not equate to continual thrashing around in a state of on-going doubt.

Remember, St. Thomas only doubted once, before falling down on his knees and saying “My Lord and my God.”

My period of doubt have long since passed. I am the Thomas that Jesus did not bother to visit. And so I have no more doubt that he’s really dead.

 

[Mannyfit75]

god knows i’m at maximum honesty. but thats still not acceptable to you. so thats probably the best, just ignore me.

The fact that you throw your doctrine dance questions by loading me this thread with questions on the rosary, papal infallibility, is an example of the lack of any attempt on your part to learn. To me you are what I called, “the troll.” There is a term here where users can spot one. They warn the poster, Psst, don’t feed the troll." That would be you because the marks of a the troll are posting doctrinal dance questions.

Doctrinal Dance is the term that is throwing multiple questions to Catholics. For example, why do you worship mary? As the Catholic tries to explain that, "why do you call priest fathers? etc… etc…

You are just a troll.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Good luck in your endeavors, Manny.

 

[jmcrae]

My period of doubt have long since passed. I am the Thomas that Jesus did not bother to visit. And so I have no more doubt that he’s really dead.

Did you ever actually ask Him to?

 

[newbetx]

Are you quite sure? “Honesty” does not equate to continual thrashing around in a state of on-going doubt.

Remember, St. Thomas only doubted once, before falling down on his knees and saying “My Lord and my God.”

I would say he doubted until…

but once he saw, he believed.

Not seeing… the blind… all metaphorical for those who, for whatever reason, either do not believe or do not (yet) want to. Some will go to their grave with that, others will “see”.

To me, believing needs to be more than just accepting. Knowing implies understanding. To KNOW Jesus is to know more than the fact that he lived and died for us. I now understand that I need to KNOW Mary.

I don’t think A.T. really came here to be convinced of anything. A mistake we sometimes make. I think he posted this to see what WE believed. And we’ve told him.

 

[Singinbeauty]

It’s uncharitable to suggest that Joseph was barren. He wasn’t barren. Some of our tradition in the East believed that Joseph had children prior to being married to Mary. You may not know it but suggesting anything of a sexual overtone on your side, doesn’t produce any fruit.

If you wish to know our Catholic faith, you ought to listen. This is the last warning before I put you in the ignore box.

Hey Manny… Breathe my man, breathe… I don’t think that Agnos was trying to be fasicious. The question was posed that if Mary and Joseph DID consumate the marriage then there would be children mentioned when they went to Jeruselum. I think he was just wanted to offer a suggestion as to why.

I am not sure what brought out such a harsh response to suggesting that Joseph may have been barren because it certainly is nothing to be ashamed of nor is it something that is insulting to say to someone. While it is an issue of a personal nature I don’t think he meant it in an insulting way. I certainly wasn’t offended by it and it didn’t even phase me until you blew up about it. I guess some people are a little more sensitive to this than I am… But I really don’t think he meant any harm by it.

The woman is the Church but if you interpret the passage as individuals and person. You clear see the Red Dragon as the Devil, the Male-Child as Jesus, and the Woman as Mary. This is logical and make theological sense.

newadvent.org/bible/rev012.htm

But see, it doesn’t make clear sense. Satan was never specifically after Mary. He was only after the Christ Child. Harrod sent his soldiers to kill the children, not the mothers. In Revelation the dragon went specifically after the woman. This makes more sense if you say that the woman in Revelation is the Jewish Nation. The crown of twelve stars represent the twelve tribes of Israel and it bore the Christ Child. Satan has been after the Jewish Nation since the beginning and still is after it today.

My answer:

NO! It is not required!

Again, BREATHE man… He was asking is it required to BELIEVE the rosary and what it’s metitation is on, not if it was required to pray it. I think he is just looking, honestly, for a distinction.

Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.

"Revelation 1:4:

4John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

Ummmmm, I don’t think this is the verse you were meaning to type.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

"Revelation 5:8:

8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

The bible indicates that followers of Christ ARE ALL saints. So these bowls would contain ALL prayers that we have all prayed.

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment

Revelation 6:9-11:

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

What does this have to do with praying to the saints in Heaven? Of course they want to be avenged. They want those who have wronged them to be judged and made to pay accordingly.

(see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13).

In those verses that you supplied it talks about someone talking personally DIRECTLY to God. No intercessor.

 

[Singinbeauty]

This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Not FOR those on earth. They want God to avenge their deaths on those who caused it. To avenge a death ON someone is to make them pay for doing the deed.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

We are all saints of God so all of our prayers are being lifted to God.

Second, I have had it with your stupid DOCTRINAL DANCE… the next uncharitable post you made, I will put you in my ignore box permanently.

I think breathing is also a good thing for you. The internet can be hard to tell what intentions may be when someone makes a comment.

I don’t go by the Bible Alone. You been here long enough to know that Catholics don’t go by the stupid erroneous fallacies doctrine of Bible Alone.

Calling ‘bible alone’ stupid erroneous fallacies is probably not the best and charitable way to persue an open minded conversation. Turn the other cheek my man.