Salvation through christ church affiliation

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JSmitty2005:
What gives you the impression that this authority was given to anyone other than the Apostles?
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no human can forgive anything. only God can do that
 
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NotWorthy:
And the choir sings, “Amen”!!

I don’t recall Christ saying the Pope would be holy. Didn’t He say to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan”? Didn’t He predict that there would be sinful leaders in the Church, “The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed… and birds would come roost in their branches”? Didn’t He pick Judas for an Apostle, knowing what would come of it?

Our Pope is not Holy because he is Pope. Our Pope is Holy only if he is Holy. Infallibility only prevent him from teaching faith and morals that are not in accordance with Christ’s Will.

Notworthy
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how could a man of god ever let another man kiss his ring and adorn himself will expensive jewels?
 
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JSmitty2005:
You didn’t answer my question. What is the Church to you? How do you define it?
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The church is those who believe, truly believe in christs teachings and put their souls in his hands. There are some in the Catholic church and there are some in other churches.
 
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santaro75:
no human can forgive anything. only God can do that
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Except for that pesky fact that Jesus gave this authority to the apostles. Not only can they forgive sins, they can retain them.

Time to set aside the Protestant script and actually pay attention to that Bible…
 
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NotWorthy:
And the choir sings, “Amen”!!

I don’t recall Christ saying the Pope would be holy. Didn’t He say to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan”? Didn’t He predict that there would be sinful leaders in the Church, “The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed… and birds would come roost in their branches”? Didn’t He pick Judas for an Apostle, knowing what would come of it?

Our Pope is not Holy because he is Pope. Our Pope is Holy only if he is Holy. Infallibility only prevent him from teaching faith and morals that are not in accordance with Christ’s Will.

Notworthy
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is not one of his official titles “his holiness” or “holy father”
those titles come with the office, not the person.

As far as i am concerned, the pope is my brother. Albeit much better educated and committed to christs work, But nonetheless in the kingdom of heaven, he is my brother.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
I would certainly agree. But I would add that God may have done so for the comfort and feeling of catharsis and closure that may come with confession to an actual person (in addition to the Grace), but perhaps he also has an “open door” policy for those who feel they can share directly with Him and have the same experience. I’m just guessing at this point.
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I would have to disagree. Taking Scripture into consideration, we read the following in 1 John 5:16-17:

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

This seems to imply that prayer will be ineffective when one commits a “deadly” sin. Knowing that God would never “leave us hanging,” He must have provided a way to have our “deadly” sins forgiven. Catholics and Orthodox (and some Lutherans and Anglicans) believe that this is through the sacrament of Confession. Scriptural support for such a belief can be found here:

(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained. (John 20:20-23)

There are two things to note here. First, we must recognize the phrase “as the Father has sent me, so I send you.” So we must ask ourselves, “How did the Father send Jesus?” The answer can be found in Matthew 28:19: “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” It’s a pretty outrageous thing for men to have the God-given authority to forgive sin, but that appears to be what Our Lord, Jesus Christ indended, so I’ll trust Him. The second thing to note is that “he breathed on them.” Do you know where else God breathed on man? There’s only one other place. It happens when God breathes life into Adam and Eve. Considering that, this is obvsiously a big deal and not something that we should take lightly!
 
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santaro75:
The church is those who believe, truly believe in christs teachings and put their souls in his hands. There are some in the Catholic church and there are some in other churches.
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That “pillar and foundation of the truth” is pretty useless when it can teach contradiction. Some Protestant churches say Baptism is just an unnecessary symbol. Some say it’s critical and really effects a change. That’s one of those “foundational issues” that there’s no room for error on.

So, it’s more than just the body of believers. Yes, it is that, but it’s clearly more or else St. Paul was speaking gibberish when he called it “the pillar and foundation of the truth.”
 
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ReformedCatholic:
What does it mean by “retain?” Why would anyone “retain” someone’s sin? The whole NT is about forgiving. I don’t understand that.
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If someone is not truly sorry for their sins and does not intend to amend their ways and repent, then they would not deserve forgiveness.
 
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santaro75:
no human can forgive anything. only God can do that
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But didn’t you just say that “another Christian brother” could forgive or retain sins? Refer to post #170 above this for the Catholic position.
 
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santaro75:
The church is those who believe, truly believe in christs teachings and put their souls in his hands. There are some in the Catholic church and there are some in other churches.
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So can I know for sure whether or not any certain individual is a member of the Church or is the Church an invisible body of “true believers” and only known to God?
 
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montanaman:
That “pillar and foundation of the truth” is pretty useless when it can teach contradiction. Some Protestant churches say Baptism is just an unnecessary symbol. Some say it’s critical and really effects a change. That’s one of those “foundational issues” that there’s no room for error on.

So, it’s more than just the body of believers. Yes, it is that, but it’s clearly more or else St. Paul was speaking gibberish when he called it “the pillar and foundation of the truth.”
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yup they are trying to have authority that only belongs to God. Jesus said be baptized so we must do it. Is it a symbol, is it not a symbol? He was so over our heads with most of the stuff he talked about so you just take a leap of faith and do it.

Churches need to be careful and when claiming any godly authority, because your faults will come out and God will humble you. Just look at the state of the RCC right now.

When you ask the average person they will not say it is a beacon of light and truth.

St francis had the right attitude when he said something like “who am i but your worthless servant?”
 
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santaro75:
yup they are trying to have authority that only belongs to God. Jesus said be baptized so we must do it. Is it a symbol, is it not a symbol? He was so over our heads with most of the stuff he talked about so you just take a leap of faith and do it.

Churches need to be careful and when claiming any godly authority, because your faults will come out and God will humble you. Just look at the state of the RCC right now.

**When you ask the average person they will not say it is a beacon of light and truth./**QUOTE]

That’s the understatement of the century, unfortunately…
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santaro75:
When you ask the average person they will not say it is a beacon of light and truth.
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Refer to post #135 to see the worth of the average person’s opinion.
 
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santaro75:
As far as i am concerned, the pope is my brother. Albeit much better educated and committed to christs work, But nonetheless in the kingdom of heaven, he is my brother.
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I think that the pope would agree. 🙂
 
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JSmitty2005:
So can I know for sure whether or not any certain individual is a member of the Church or is the Church an invisible body of “true believers” and only known to God?
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of course you will konw them by their fruits.
 
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santaro75:
of course you will konw them by their fruits.
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But what if I’m the new guy in town and I don’t know anyone. Can I really find the Church or is it invisible?
 
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santaro75:
of course you will konw them by their fruits.
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quoting myself…how funny. I did go to a baptist service once and the preacher was talking about how many are calling the present age the “post christian” age.

He also said that if we christians focused soley on loving eachother and helping our brothers and sisters, and forgiving relentlessly there probably wouldn’t be an empty pew on sunday.

unfortunately for many, being a true christian is more about doctrine than the things jesus asked us to do repeatedly.
 
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JSmitty2005:
If someone is not truly sorry for their sins and does not intend to amend their ways and repent, then they would not deserve forgiveness.
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I would agree, but wouldn’t it be God making the determination rather than the priest/apostle?
 
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