Salvation

[Nick_Jones]

I suppose Jesus would say something along the lines of “you can do all things in me”

Philippians 4:13
“I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.”

Jesus says if you break the least of my commandments you will not have life

lets see Jesus or Nick Jones:shrug:

Jesus would not command us to do something that we could not do. a commandment is a commandment there is not geting around it

I disagree. All of us have desires of various kinds that are “of the flesh” and therefore, not compatible with living “by the Spirit.”

Mark 10:17-27
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. **“No one is good—except God alone. **19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

20"Teacher," he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

---

We must… by faith in the goodness and mercy of God, place our full confidence–our faith, in Christ alone. To place confidence in your own flesh is to trust in something other than Jesus:

Philippians 3:2-9
2Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

 

[Lampo]

I disagree. All of us have desires of various kinds that are “of the flesh” and therefore, not compatible with living “by the Spirit.”

Mark 10:17-27
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

20"Teacher," he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

---

We must… by faith in the goodness and mercy of God, place our full confidence–our faith, in Christ alone. To place confidence in your own flesh is to trust in something other than Jesus:

Philippians 3:2-9
2Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

This is *very *Catholic.

 

[Nick_Jones]

No, God makes us good. What makes you think He wouldn’t make it possible for us to be perfect? If we’re being adopted as his true children, what makes you think He wouldn’t make it possible, and in fact help us along the way if we wanted and cooperated?

The whole purpose for the creation of the universe (and mankind) is for God’s glory, not our glory. Salvation is, IMHO, the very highest expression of God’s glory, since none of us has done, will do, or could ever do, ANYTHING to save ourselves from our own sin. Does the bible say that we are saved by our goodness or by the goodness and mercy of God? Why do you think that your own goodness (your perfect and excellent cooperation) has something to do with saving you? Are you a sinner, or are you someone who cooperates with God?

 

[Nick_Jones]

Good quesiton

he happens to be avoiding it as well

If you have been reading my responses, you will notice that I’ve answered your question. If my answer was not clear enough, then just tell me exactly what needs to be clarified. I will do my best to clarify!

 

[bookgirl32]

Why do you think that your own goodness (your perfect and excellent cooperation) has something to do with saving you?

Why do you think that I think this?

 

[bookgirl32]

If you have been reading my responses, you will notice that I’ve answered your question. If my answer was not clear enough, then just tell me exactly what needs to be clarified. I will do my best to clarify!

I think you actually believe a lot closer to what we do, you just don’t want to admit it.

 

[bookgirl32]

If you have been reading my responses, you will notice that I’ve answered your question. If my answer was not clear enough, then just tell me exactly what needs to be clarified. I will do my best to clarify!

AND – you didn’t really tell me why you think God wouldn’t want to make me, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, able to be perfect through Him (after salavation)? You answered that you don’t think He does, but you didn’t tell me why you thought that.

 

[Odell]

I disagree. All of us have desires of various kinds that are “of the flesh” and therefore, not compatible with living “by the Spirit.”

So YOU cant live by the Spirit?

I mean you really cant say no because the bible says you can
im really confused

Mark 10:17-27
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. **“No one is good—except God alone. **19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

So Jesus was saying here HE is not good, is this how you interprit this verse?

20"Teacher," he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"

27Jesus looked at them and said, “With man ****this is impossible, but not with God; **all **things are possible with God.”

Are you so blind to see the very verse you quoted says ALL things are possible with God

Especially after saying that we need keep the commandments to enter life

---

We must… by faith in the goodness and mercy of God, place our full confidence–our faith, in Christ alone. To place confidence in your own flesh is to trust in something other than Jesus:

I put trust in Jesus alone and I have confidence in Christ who works threw me.

If this is Satan working threw me then I need to know. But the last time I checked Satan doesent dish out grace so we can keep the commandments

, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

So your aluding to when I keep Gods commandments Im doing it on my own and not from faith?

 

[guanophore]

I have never said that perfection is not demanded for salvation, in fact I’m the one that is trying to remind you (RC’s) that God’s standard for goodness is absolute perfection in every detail.

Are you doing this because you think that Catholics believe their innate goodness will get them to heaven?

The bible tells us that on the cross Jesus bore the sins of many. If Jesus has paid the full price for my sins, then the wrath of God has already been appeased by the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God, who has taken all of my sins away. By God’s grace, my sins don’t need to be “changed” for they have been taken away from me and placed on Jesus, who died for my sins.

But not all will be saved. Those who do not join in His sacrifice cannot obtain the grace.

How do you dispense with this passage?

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

It is written to believers, those who are in the Church.

The fact that I believe that Jesus has taken away all of my sins is the very reason why I love Him. But for those who view God as a task-master who demands some unknowable demarcation of deeds done in love for others… for salvation to be possible, there is no love possible for that kind of god. Who would you be more likely to love, the person who keeps reminding you how much you owe him, or the one who tells you that your entire debt has been paid…and you owe nothing at all?

This is a very toxic view of God. God’s commandments are not burdensome. His demands are not unknowable.

I’m not twisting any words. I’m saying that in the same way that only those who are sick need a physican, it is only because humanity has fallen into sin that Jesus has come to the earth to give His life for His sheep so that they will be saved. If I can heal myself then I don’t need a doctor. If I am capable of being perfectly righteous then I don’t need the Savior of mankind. But since I’m sinful and unrighteous I am in desperate need of my Savior, who loves me in spite of my sin, and who has given His own life so that I can live, to be with Him forever.

So, which is it? Are you sinful and unrighteous, or are you without sin? Or are you both at the same time?

I’m saying these things because I’m convinced from God’s word that I have nothing good to offer to God. I’m so evil that I’d still be an antitheist (I called myself an atheist before my conversion) if not for the grace of God, which caused me, much to my surprise, to begin to see myself as I really am–a vile and wicked sinner who truly deserves to burn in hell forever. God’s grace comes to His sheep in a variety of ways–some more dramatic than others, but I never ever expected to suddenly find myself convinced of my own sinfulness and desperately in need of God’s mercy!

I think you say this because you have fallen into the error of total depravity.

Rom 12:1-2
12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Those who are in Christ do have something of value to offer God, themselves. We are to prove the will of God in every aspect of our lives. This is a spiritual worship. Our sins are not just “covered”, but we are transformed from sinners to saints.

No. I believe that God not only saved me because He is good, but I also notice that the apostle Paul, and saved people in general, have a certain zeal for Jesus that manifests itself as a continual eagerness to share their faith with those who don’t know Jesus. There are so many religious people in world…and so few who know Jesus. Lots of people have a zeal for their religion. The faith that saves souls is a faith that is zealous for Jesus. Religion can’t save anyone. Only Jesus can do that!

Did God change His mind about looking upon His creation and calling it 'good". Humans are made in the image and likeness of God. It is our purpose to reflect His likeness in the most perfect way possible.

I disagree. All of us have desires of various kinds that are “of the flesh” and therefore, not compatible with living “by the Spirit.”

I agree, but it is our duty to enter into battle and bring our members into subjection to His will. This is something that we must do. That is why there are so many imperitives in scripture. We cannot succeed in doing it without the grace of God, but it is incumbent upon us to work out our salvation in our flesh.

27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

---

We must… by faith in the goodness and mercy of God, place our full confidence–our faith, in Christ alone. To place confidence in your own flesh is to trust in something other than Jesus:

Doing battle with the flesh to bring it into subjection to God is not "putting confidence in the flesh’. It is our duty to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice to God. This is not something God does without our cooperation.

 

[guanophore]

This is *very *Catholic.

I should hope so, it is taken from a Catholic book!

 

[guanophore]

The whole purpose for the creation of the universe (and mankind) is for God’s glory, not our glory. Salvation is, IMHO, the very highest expression of God’s glory, since none of us has done, will do, or could ever do, ANYTHING to save ourselves from our own sin. Does the bible say that we are saved by our goodness or by the goodness and mercy of God? Why do you think that your own goodness (your perfect and excellent cooperation) has something to do with saving you? Are you a sinner, or are you someone who cooperates with God?

The two are not separate from each other. God intended, from the beginning, that mankind should be the crown of His creation. God saves us from our sins so that we can become, in actuality,the good that He created us to be. You are mistaken if you think that our cooperation with God’s grace has something to do with “goodness”. On the contrary:

Luke 17:10
0 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’"

It is our duty, and our proper worship. Once we receive God’s grace, it is our obligation to stop being a sinner, and start being one who cooperates with His grace.

So your aluding to when I keep Gods commandments Im doing it on my own and not from faith?

I think this is exactly what he is saying. He seems to believe that it is not possible to keep the commandments, or that we believe we keep them somehow by our confidence in our own flesh, instead of by the grace of God.

 

[Nick_Jones]

AND – you didn’t really tell me why you think God wouldn’t want to make me, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, able to be perfect through Him (after salavation)? You answered that you don’t think He does, but you didn’t tell me why you thought that.

I DO think that God will make all of His adopted sons and daughters perfectly righteous after salvation. I just disagree with you on the way it happens. I believe that during this life, none of us mere humans attain perfect righteousness within ourselves (infused righteousness), but instead, saved people are credited with the perfect righteousness of Christ because of their God-given faith in the completed (saving) work of Jesus.

 

[Nick_Jones]

I think you actually believe a lot closer to what we do, you just don’t want to admit it.

What the RCC teaches is not close to what the bible teaches, so there is no possibility that I believe anything CLOSE to what you believe. In the work of salvation, I give God ALL of the credit at EVERY point. Even my will (desire) to accept the free grace that God gives has been drawn by His grace so that in spite of my evil and sinful nature, I want something that is good. The only possible explanation for HOW my prideful and sinful will could want something that is truly good (God’s loving grace) is the grace of God. It is God who causes the wicked to want to come to Jesus for mercy.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Why do you think that I think this?

If you are truly RC then it follows that you believe what Rome teaches, and Rome teaches that we are saved by our free will response to God’s offer of salvation. I disagree. Salvation is not based upon our goodness. It is all about God’s goodness.

 

[Lampo]

Rome teaches that we are saved by our free will response to God’s offer of salvation. I disagree. Salvation is not based upon our goodness. It is all about God’s goodness.

Please provide your source to your claim to what the Church teaches. Official Catholic documents only please. Thank you.

Salvation is based on our perseverance in faith, hope and love. We are saved by God’s grace alone.

Perhaps this will help.

 

[Odell]

If you are truly RC then it follows that you believe what Rome teaches, and Rome teaches that we are saved by our free will response to God’s offer of salvation. I disagree. Salvation is not based upon our goodness. It is all about God’s goodness.

Do you even read what we write or do just injoy writing the same old ?

Does God not do anything good in you? You believe it was Gods grace that brought you to Christ thats Good isnt it? How would you like it if I told you. You dont trust in Gods goodness because YOU responded to his Grace therefore YOU trust in YOUR goodness and not Gods

 

[jimmy]

Nick Jones:

The bible tells us that on the cross Jesus bore the sins of many. If Jesus has paid the full price for my sins, then the wrath of God has already been appeased by the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God, who has taken all of my sins away. By God’s grace, my sins don’t need to be “changed” for they have been taken away from me and placed on Jesus, who died for my sins.

You might as well say there is no such thing as sin anymore. That is basically the conclusion of what you have said. It doesn’t matter what sin you commit. Your sinful nature doesn’t need to be purified because Christ took the blaim for your sins.

The fact that I believe that Jesus has taken away all of my sins is the very reason why I love Him. But for those who view God as a task-master who demands some unknowable demarcation of deeds done in love for others… for salvation to be possible, there is no love possible for that kind of god. Who would you be more likely to love, the person who keeps reminding you how much you owe him, or the one who tells you that your entire debt has been paid…and you owe nothing at all?

I give up. You continually twist my words and those of scripture to fit your own agenda.

 

[bookgirl32]

Do you even read what we write or do just injoy writing the same old ?

Does God not do anything good in you? You believe it was Gods grace that brought you to Christ thats Good isnt it? How would you like it if I told you. You dont trust in Gods goodness because YOU responded to his Grace therefore YOU trust in YOUR goodness and not Gods

Well, he reads it, he just sees what he wants to see.

 

[bookgirl32]

You might as well say there is no such thing as sin anymore. That is basically the conclusion of what you have said. It doesn’t matter what sin you commit. Your sinful nature doesn’t need to be purified because Christ took the blaim for your sins.

I give up. You continually twist my words and those of scripture to fit your own agenda.

Me too. Thanks for some entertainment, anyway:shrug:

 

[Nick_Jones]

So YOU cant live by the Spirit?

If I live by the Spirit–and I do, it is because the Spirit lives in me by God’s grace. None of this happened because of anything good in me or because of any good things that I’ve done.

So Jesus was saying here HE is not good, is this how you interprit this verse?

Jesus wasn’t trying to say that He (Jesus) isn’t good, Jesus was making the contrast between God’s goodness and mankind’s wickedness. Not one of us is truly good, for all of us want what is worldly and no one seeks first the kingdom of God.

Are you so blind to see the very verse you quoted says ALL things are possible with God

No, I’m trying to get you to notice that none of us can keep ALL the commandments if keeping the commandments entails selling everything we own, giving to the poor, so that we can then begin following Jesus.

So your aluding to when I keep Gods commandments Im doing it on my own and not from faith?

No one keeps the commandments. All of us are lawbreakers.