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Nick_Jones
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Salvation is based on, and entirely due to, the goodness and mercy of the Savior, not because of anything good or worthy in those who receive God’s mercy and are thereby saved.
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Nick_Jones
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Yes, and I’ve never denied that God has indeed done something good in me. He SAVED me!
Titus 3:5
“he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit…”
It sure is!
I have NEVER tried to link my response (accepting Jesus) to the “goodness” of my “free” will. In fact, my will was, pre-regeneration, NOT free, but enslaved to sin.
I only began desiring what is truly good because of God’s supernatural work of regeneration in me…causing me to finally begin to see myself as I really am–a wicked and vile sinner who deserves to burn in hell for all eternity. When I knew (by grace) that I was lost and condemned because of my sinfulness, only then did I (by grace) seek mercy from Jesus. Not one detail of salvation leaves the saved sinner ANY cause for boasting.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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Nick_Jones
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Would you be willing to provide an example of me twisting your words or those of Scripture?
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bookgirl32
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What about providing your source to what the Church teaches, you kind of avoided that one.
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bookgirl32
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Oh, I don’t know, us contintually saying we DON’T believe in works of our own accord being GOOD ENOUGH for anything. And you continually saying that we do, and when we deny it AGAIN you saying that our Church does, so we must, and then when we ask you to please cite a source saying that the Church believes that you just repeat the same thing over and over and over. How’s that?
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bookgirl32
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According to YOU that’s not something He did in you, that’s something He did TO you.
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bookgirl32
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So you’re saying that God’s grace, without you even being saved yet, is sufficient to bring about an action in you? What an amazing concept!!
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bookgirl32
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Actually, all details leave the sinner very much cause for boasting, not for ourselves, but for God. So God brought about an action in you through His grace to 1:save you, and 2:show the world what He did and bring more people to Him. That’s a pretty amazing concept too. You just think that God’s grace is limited to the act of believing, and nothing else.
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bookgirl32
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You CAN’T give to the poor? You’re not capable of doing that? You may not want to, and God may not require it of you, but you can’t?
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bookgirl32
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CORRECTION: God may not require it of you for salvation.
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ChrisWRIT
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Whether you realize it or not, Nick, you really are very close to what the Catholic Church teaches.
The difference seems to be from the rejection of “infused righteousness” in favor of “imputed righteousness.”
This is perfectly understandable given the common Protestant view of salvation as an instant “one-time” event. If it were, then it certainly would follow that we must be instantly perfected as well, & since we don’t instantly become perfect when we are “saved”, then we must be simply credited as righteous right then, & finally be made righteous once we enter heaven.
That does make sense. However, according to both the Bible & the Catholic Church, salvation is really a process.
We are made perfect & righteous, but not instantly. Like salvation, it is a process which only begins when we receive God’s grace & start to turn to Him. It is not & cannot be completed until the final resurrection with Him in heaven.
That brings us to address our common view that we are saved by grace.
Exactly! That is just what both the Bible & the Catholic Church teach! We are saved by God’s grace alone!
You are absolutely correct in quoting Eph. 2:8-10 earlier! It only remains to simply back up a bit to include the entire passage for clarification & support for these statements, beginning at verse 1. Here it is:
“1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
The Catholic Church teaches exactly what this passage states, as is reinforced by the rest of scripture. Specifically, that we are saved by God’s grace alone (Eph. 2:5).
The Bible shows plainly, as the Catholic Church teaches, that both faith & works are required for our ultimate salvation, but neither is sufficient alone, nor do either originate with ourselves, but by God’s grace.
It is a simple, though sadly common, misconception that the Church teaches that either faith or works come from ourselves, when in reality, both the Bible & the Church teach that the required faith & works come as a result of God’s grace alone, not from ourselves.
Only by God’s grace is it even possible for us to have the required faith (Eph. 2:8), which is completed through our actions (James 2:20-24), which are the required good works that God made us to perform (Eph. 2:10).
God Bless,
Chris
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Odell
Guest
Would you kindly let us know what your definition is of living by the Spirit?
Jesus said what you did to the lest of my brethren you did to me. I dont know what your definition is of living by the Spirit but Catholics call this not living by the Spirit when you dont clothe the naked feed the hungry or give to the poor.
No where do the commandments entail selling everything we own. Some are called too, this man in this story was but he did not. Jesus said it would be hard for the rich to enter heaven because they tend to live of the flesh and not the Spirit.
Not all are called to sell everything they own
Im called to take care of my family and if I dont there is a price to pay.
1 Tim 5:8 “and whoever does not provide for his family had denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever”
I cant exactly sell my home that my family lives in. Im doing my best to live out what God has called me to be. God would not call me to sell everthing to follow him because it is not my calling.
However Jesus told this man and he left unhappy. Wonder where it got him?
Luke chapter 1 says that Elizabeth and Zechariah were righteous before God and walked blameless in the commandments.
Tell me did they do this on there own or by the Spirit?
Me too
AMEN
So you freely chose Christ because of his Grace. What about when you live by the Spirit?
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Odell
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bookgirl32
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Nick, I’m going to challenge you to believe us when we say that we DO NOT think that actions of our own accord can save us. That we believe that it is through grace of God ALONE that we are saved. Can you at least admit that when we say this, we really mean it?
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jimmy
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Exactly. Everytime we say something you twist it to fit into a legalistic framework. I am sure you(Nick Jones) are not doing it on purpose but you are still doing it.
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bookgirl32
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Maybe he’s doing it on purpose, but not malisciously (sp?). I just think he’s really really afraid he’s closer to what the Church teaches than he thinks. And we’ve at least been very convincing of that point. So he has to keep telling himself we believe what he’s been taught that we do.
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Cling2Cross
Guest
When most Protestants speak of salvation…they have a tendency to stress the beginning…when one is born again…when one is justified (yes - justification is an event and not a process). And - yes - it is a wonderful thing to be forgiven of the sin that was imputed to us and has now been forgiven…now replaced with the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. It happened to me when I believed…
Therefore, **having been justified **by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (Romans 5:1 NAS95)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24 KJV)
This is regeneration…a receiving of the Holy Spirit. Counted righteous on the merits of Christ. BUT…not only the legal but also the receiving of the Holy Spirit takes place and we are dead with Christ…and alive unto God through Jesus Christ - changed…
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV)
Now free from sin and servants of righteousness…
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. (Romans 6:22 KJV)
The transaction that takes place at the new birth is a miracle and life changing…we are counted righteous and the process of being made righteous (practically speaking) begins (sanctification). Ultimately, it ends in glorification…
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 KJV)
The problem with CC doctrine is that you say that justification is a process…for me it was an event and it was BY FAITH which was a gift to me at the time that I heard the gospel.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness (justification); and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10 KJV)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17 KJV)
C2C
Therefore, **having been justified **by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (Romans 5:1 NAS95)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24 KJV)
This is regeneration…a receiving of the Holy Spirit. Counted righteous on the merits of Christ. BUT…not only the legal but also the receiving of the Holy Spirit takes place and we are dead with Christ…and alive unto God through Jesus Christ - changed…
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV)
Now free from sin and servants of righteousness…
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. (Romans 6:22 KJV)
The transaction that takes place at the new birth is a miracle and life changing…we are counted righteous and the process of being made righteous (practically speaking) begins (sanctification). Ultimately, it ends in glorification…
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 KJV)
The problem with CC doctrine is that you say that justification is a process…for me it was an event and it was BY FAITH which was a gift to me at the time that I heard the gospel.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness (justification); and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10 KJV)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17 KJV)
C2C
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guanophore
Guest
The fact that we are imputed with righteousness is not contrary to becoming the righteousness of God in Christ. We cannot begin to be infused until we are imparted grace. However, once we have been declared righteous, it is then incumbent upon us to bear fruits that befit repentance, and to become that which we have been declared to be.
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guanophore
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The fact that we are imputed with righteousness is not contrary to becoming the righteousness of God in Christ. We cannot begin to be infused until we are imparted grace. However, once we have been declared righteous, it is then incumbent upon us to bear fruits that befit repentance, and to become that which we have been declared to be.
This is quite Catholic. There is nothing you say here that contradicts Catholic teaching. What may be missing from this formulation is that we are required to participate in this process. We are commanded to love God with our whole heart, mind, soul and strength, and to work hard on becoming perfected in faith. It is the God, at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure, but we are also to earnestly endeaver to lay hold of that which has laid hold of us.
Perhaps you have misunderstood what the Church teaches. Man cannot have any “free will” unless penetrated by the Grace of God. Yes, we can choose to respond to God’s offer, but it is His grace that allows that. Otherwise, we are dead in our sins.
Also, the free will of man is a faculty given to man by God. God has created us in His image and likeness (with free will). He allows us to choose to dwell in Him, or apart from Him. The capacity to choose is not based on “goodness” per se. That is like saying the ability to digest food is based on human goodness. It is just our natural condition.
The notion of total depravity is false. God made man, and declared His creation “good”. The fact that man has fallen does not remove the ‘good’ that God created, as the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
But, let us say, for the sake of discussion, that God is at work in you to will and to do His good pleasure. It is still incumbent upon you to work out your salvation. You must earnestly strive. God expects your human will to be in cooperation with His Divine will.
This statement also reflects a Calvanist error on the nature of man. God has fashioned us to seek and desire Him. This is part of our nature. We are not able to find or to cling to Him without His grace, but we are made for Him, deep down, we all know this. It is not true that no one seeks for the kingdom. Scripture is clear on this.
Mark 15:43
43 Joseph of Arimathe’a, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God,
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guanophore
Guest
You have misunderstood the commandments, then. Jesus does not command us to do things we cannot do. He gives us the power, by the indwelling HS, to keep the commandments.
This seems to reflect a self image problem. A person who says such a thing does not seem to understand that he has been transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.
1 John 2:2-6
3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
1 John 5:1-5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
It is true that salvation is due the goodness an mercy of God. But it is an error to think that God does not consider us worthy. He made us in His image and likeness, and created us before the foundation of the world, that we might walk uprightly before Him. For Himself, and the cleansing if this image of Himself, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. He accounted us worthy, therefore, we must so count ourselves so, and conduct ourselves accordingly. Otherwise, Christ sacrificed Himself for nothing!
This is Catholic. This is why we can’t understand every time you say that cooperating with God’s grace is somehow accounting ourselves morally superior to those that do not. It is God’s prevenient grace that draws us unto Himself, and it is by His grace that we are made into the image of Himself that He created us to be.
Right, so why do we see Paul boasting? It is because we are His workmanship, and He is glorfied in our works, when we walk according to His commandments. We do this by grace, through faith. Yet it requires our will, our action, our participation. Putting the members of our body into worship to Him.
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