Yes, Adam and Eve truly had free will before they fell into sin, and they were created good–they had no evil nature before they ate the fruit…yet they sinned and lost their freedom. If Adam and Eve, who were created good, were not able to use their freedom wisely, how can you or I do better than them with a sinful will that is hostile toward God?
At what point did the heroin addict or the heavy smoker no longer have free will to stop using the stuff?
Does anybody else see this contradiction?
YOU want to sin?
WE all know where scripture says this will get you. and you might need the shades
Does this make us our own saviors? Well… think about this: Jesus said, “I am the vine, you are the branches.” “Without Me, you can do nothing.” Of course with Jesus, we can do much.
It might be possible for some people to be willing to? Or it is possible that they do it? Please understand here that I’m not talking about whether or not they should, or if God is requiring it, etc. You said that it was not possible, so now you’re saying it is?
My question is this: If Adam and Eve, who had no evil nature as you claim etc., could lose their salvation by an act of their free will, then why can’t we?
At what point did the HAVE TO START?
Yes, we are rescued from the ditch, but that doesn’t mean we won’t go and get hit by a truck while crossing the street.
We have come to terms, but it is on the basis of what the Apostles taught, rather than what Calvin taught.
The problem is that our nature is fallen, but not destroyed. The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, therefore, when He created man in His image, and called him “good”, this capacity for goodness is not “taken back” by God. In fact, Jesus points out that, in spite of the fact that they are fallen men, they can still want good gifts for their children.
Ahh, but being a “prisoner” by defintition means that someone is held against their will. That in us that longs for God does not stop longing just because we are fallen.
Indeed! except that I will also add that some sinners want salvation.
We can clearly see in the case of Cornelius that persons can engage in actions that are pleasing to God before they are born again. This is grace. The scripture says “your alms have gone up to heaven”. Jesus is talking to the spiritually dead when He tells them that they want to feed their children well. This proves that even fallen men are capable of doing something besides transgression an sin.
Hence, their need for a saviour.
Thats what Christ came for my friend. He wants us to change our hearts. He wants us to Love as he. And he came to show us how to truly be MAN. Because Jesus was fully MAN indeed.
I’ve never said that he had to start.
What God requires of ALL of us (to inherit eternal life) is perfect righteousness. Jesus told the rich man, “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
If you are able to keep ALL of the commands, then you have nothing to worry about…which ones can you keep?
It is for God alone to judge whether or not a fallen and sinful nature is “destroyed.” Since God is HOLY and He cannot even look upon sin, you might want to ask yourself this question:
It wasn’t God who made them evil, it was their own fault. If Adam and Eve didn’t become evil, then why were Adam and Eve banned from the garden after they fell?
Because Catholicism is not humanism. We also, (those of us trained in the field of addictions) know that herion and nicotine change the brain chemistry, thwarting the ability to choose. Sin does not take away our ability to choose. Our fallen state causes us to tend toward making choices that go against God’s plan for our lives.
I agree about physical death, but the text clearly shows that this was not what happened. Why, in Deut. Do we see God placing a choice before the people, and asking them to choose life, if this is not possible?
I agree entirely. And the rich man chose not to accept the grace Jesus was offering.
I agree. It is only by cooperating with God, whose grace is at work within us to will and to do his good pleasure, can we be confromed to the image and likeness of God. What you describe as the tendency to follow worldly things Catholics call “concupiscence”, which is the result of the fall. It does not mean we can’t choose, it just means that our choices tend to be “hostile to God”.
I don’t think I’m any better than the rich man. YOU said that it is impossible for man to do this. I said it was not impossible. I did not say I would, or would be able to find the strength to. And I don’t think Jesus is using His commands as examples of what “some” people are not capable of doing in order to show them that it is impossible for them to please God in any way. I think He very clearly states that you must be born again (in WATER) and I think that He, then, commands what we must cooperate with in His grace that He freely gave us when we were born again.
This is a misunderstanding about the nature of man. If man was not capable if evil in the first place, he could not make an evil choice!
This is kinda off topic, but I think you are trying to liken sin to addiction. Once the chemistry of the brain is sufficiently altered, the person becomes physically dependent. This is called “loss of control” and is what medically defines addiction.
True, but you seem to leave grace out of the story. If either the rich man or the addict are obedient to God’s command, he will pour His grace into their lives and make it possible for them to accomplish what He has commanded.
No, you claimed that once he was fully addicted, he lost his free will. Even if that is true, my point is that the original decision, that got him into addiction, was an act of his free will. So it’s not a loss, really, but a willful relinquishing of his will!