Salvation

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Is it really that hard to see that, what is possible for some people is impossible for others, and that Jesus, who knows you intimately, could be asking you (right now, if you can hear Him) to do what you find impossible to do? How are you any better off than the rich man?
What I may find impossible to do IS possible with God:thumbsup:
If you are able to keep ALL of the commands, then you have nothing to worry about…which ones can you keep?
In Christ I can do all things. And if I break one then I repent

But really your missing my point first you use this passage to support that Jesus would command something we cant do but then you say that it is possible to do.

If thats the case you cant use this passage to support God demanding something of us we can not do.

care to try again 😃
I agree about physical death, but the text clearly shows that this was not what happened. Why, in Deut. Do we see God placing a choice before the people, and asking them to choose life, if this is not possible?".
🤷

Could be that NIck is wrong? IDK just my guess
 
But really your missing my point first you use this passage to support that Jesus would command something we cant do but then you say that it is possible to do.
Really good point Odell!
 
Thats what Christ came for my friend. He wants us to change our hearts. He wants us to Love as he. And he came to show us how to truly be MAN. Because Jesus was fully MAN indeed.

Simple answer He gives us the Grace to do it
Does God give EVERYONE the grace to do it?
 
I agree entirely. And the rich man chose not to accept the grace Jesus was offering.
Where in this passage (Mark 10:17-27) does it suggest that Jesus was offering the rich man grace?
I agree. It is only by cooperating with God, whose grace is at work within us to will and to do his good pleasure, can we be confromed to the image and likeness of God. What you describe as the tendency to follow worldly things Catholics call “concupiscence”, which is the result of the fall. It does not mean we can’t choose, it just means that our choices tend to be “hostile to God”.
I have never denied that we all get to make choices in life. And if our will didn’t get turned away from God by the fall, why is it that "our choices tend to be “hostile to God”?
 
Where in this passage (Mark 10:17-27) does it suggest that Jesus was offering the rich man grace?

I have never denied that we all get to make choices in life. And if our will didn’t get turned away from God by the fall, why is it that "our choices tend to be “hostile to God”?
Why can’t you see that our will being turned away from God is not a complete and utter ignorance of God?
 
This is a misunderstanding about the nature of man. If man was not capable if evil in the first place, he could not make an evil choice!
I agree. If man was not capable of evil in the first place, he could not make an evil choice.
However, I agree with you that we cannot hope to do better with a mind hostile toward God. The will, in itself, however, is neither good or bad. It is the human faculty that enables us to make choices. What makes the outcome good or bad is the nature of what is chosen. As ST. Paul says, “I can will what is right to do, but I cannot do it.”
Are you saying that Paul’s will was neutral–neither good or bad? If so, what was it about Paul’s “neutral” will that made him say, “I can will what is right to do, but I cannot do it.”
This is kinda off topic, but I think you are trying to liken sin to addiction. Once the chemistry of the brain is sufficiently altered, the person becomes physically dependent. This is called “loss of control” and is what medically defines addiction.
It might not be very important to God whether the human addiction to sin–which begins with individuals making their own choices, is due to brain chemistry or something else. It is still enslavement either way.
True, but you seem to leave grace out of the story. If either the rich man or the addict are obedient to God’s command, he will pour His grace into their lives and make it possible for them to accomplish what He has commanded. 👍
Again, you are subjecting God’s will and power to the helpless and feeble will of the addict. Is grace meant for God’s glory or man’s? You also seem to be assuming that people who are completely enslaved to something worldly are able to be obedient to God’s command BEFORE God pours His grace into their lives! You are, it seems, extremely confident in human willpower. Is this view of fallen mankind what the bible teaches?
 
If Adam and Eve didn’t become evil, then why were Adam and Eve banned from the garden after they fell?
Why?

Gen. 3:22
“And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Does God give EVERYONE the grace to do it?
Yep.

2 Cor. 5:14-15
”For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.”
Where in this passage (Mark 10:17-27) does it suggest that Jesus was offering the rich man grace?
When he told the rich man all that there was left to do.

Mark 10:21
”Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Is grace meant for God’s glory or man’s?
Both.

Romans 8:17
“Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.”

Actually, the entire chapter shows that we are chosen to receive & share in God’s glory. Not that we get it instead of God. Not that we can claim credit for it, but that we will share in it.
You also seem to be assuming that people who are completely enslaved to something worldly are able to be obedient to God’s command BEFORE God pours His grace into their lives!
No. The Catholic Church teaches that the first thing we receive is God’s grace.

CCC 1989
The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matt. 3:2) Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. “Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.”
 
I didn’t understand the point.
You keep using the story of the rich man to show where Jesus commands us to do somthing “impossible” but then later state that it is possible for some and not for others. That is his point. I guess, coming from the Calvinist viewpoint that you do, you believe the Bible is only for some, then?
 
I didn’t understand the point.
Originally posted by NICK
I haven’t denied that fallen sinners still get to make choices in life. We all have the capacity to choose what we want and to reject what we don’t want. This is one of several admonitions from God to make the good and right choice. **As I’ve already pointed out, it is not unusual for God to admonish or even command of us something that is impossible for mankind to do. See Mark 10:21 **“Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
You said this in response to guanophore
Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days,
You was using Mk 10: 21 in response to guanophore saying it is not unusual for God to ask someone something that is impossible

But then you say
Originally Posted by Nick Jones
**It might be possible **for some people at certain times to be willing to sell all of their possessions and give their money to the poor.
What is it Nick? 🤷

If it is possible with the Grace of God you left that out of your little formula by the way, then you cant use Mk 10:21 in responce to guanophore passage of Deut 30:19-20

YOU still have a problem with this verse

And we would like you to answer gunaophore question?
 
**Originally Posted by Nick Jones **
As I’ve already pointed out, it is not unusual for God to admonish or even command of us something that is impossible for mankind to do. See Mark 10:21 “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Quote:
**Originally Posted by Nick Jones **
It might be possible for some people at certain times to be willing to sell all of their possessions and give their money to the poor.
This one.
 
Is there anyone who really, sincerely believes Calvin that thinks they are NOT one of the elect (elect as Calvin defined it, that is)?
 
Does God give EVERYONE the grace to do it?
God desires that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth. Those who are willing to accept that they need a saviour, and choose to receive the grace, get more grace.

2 Cor 3:18
18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

To those that have, more will be given.
Where in this passage (Mark 10:17-27) does it suggest that Jesus was offering the rich man grace?
Grace came in the form of instruction,and the Word of Knowlege. He asked for the instruction, which shows that he had already been drawn by grace. Yet, when Jesus showed him the path for his salvation, he turned it down. Do you imagine, if the man had sold all that he had, and come to follow Jesus, that Jesus would not have empowered him for the task?

What greater grace is offered than “come and follow Me”?
I have never denied that we all get to make choices in life. And if our will didn’t get turned away from God by the fall, why is it that "our choices tend to be “hostile to God”?
Our minds and hearts are darkened, because we have been wounded by the fall, and separated from the relationship in which He created us to be with Him.

The tendency to sin is not the same as slavery to sin. This slavery can be broken, and we can choose life. It cannot be done apart from God’s grace, but neither can we be saved by grace unless we choose to mix faith with that grace. The grace comes from God, the faith is ours to add. God created us with will, and the capacity for faith. We decide where we will place that faith. The rich man chose to place it in his wealth.
I agree. If man was not capable of evil in the first place, he could not make an evil choice.
I am glad we can agree about SOMETHING! 👍
Are you saying that Paul’s will was neutral–neither good or bad? If so, what was it about Paul’s “neutral” will that made him say, “I can will what is right to do, but I cannot do it.”
The ability to effect what the will desires does not necessarily equate to achieiving it. Mankind may yearn to be right with God, but he is not capable, of himself, to achieve this. This can only happen by the grace of God. So, if a man acknowledges his need for a saviour, and trusts God with his whole heart, mind, soul and strength, then one can have eternal life.
It is still enslavement either way.
Yes, and this enslavement is broken in baptism.
Again, you are subjecting God’s will and power to the helpless and feeble will of the addict. Is grace meant for God’s glory or man’s?
I don’t see how? God has decided that He will glorify Himself in the salvation of mankind. Why separate the two? God is best glorified in us when we are all that he created us to be.
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You also seem to be assuming that people who are completely enslaved to something worldly are able to be obedient to God's command BEFORE God pours His grace into their lives!  You are, it seems, extremely confident in human willpower.  Is this view of fallen mankind what the bible teaches?
No, I don’t think so. I just don’t think that God pours His grace into man without man’s consent. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him, so it is essential that our faith be mixed with His grace. That is how He designed the recipe of salvation to work. Faith is a human faculty, as is the will. When one comes to believe, then acts with the will, then God can pour more grace, and work within us the will and the ability to obey HIs commands.

Heb 4:2
2 For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers.
 
This one.
As I’ve already pointed out, it is not unusual for God to admonish or even command of us something that is impossible for mankind to do. See Mark 10:21 “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
It might be possible for some people at certain times to be willing to sell all of their possessions and give their money to the poor.
This instruction, “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me”, was given to one particular person, and not to mankind in general. The rich man went away sad because he had great wealth. He was not able to do what Jesus told him to do.

The whole point of the story is this:
  1. The question is asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” The rich man thought he could DO GOOD, and thereby inherit eternal life.
  2. The answer is, “Why do you call me good? No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.” Only God is good. Jesus makes the connection between goodness and keeping the commands.
  3. The rich man viewed himself as righteous in himself–a keeper of the commands, not a lawbreaker. “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
  4. By His instruction to sell his possessions and give to the poor, Jesus shows the rich man his error. He loved his money too much to part with it. He had broken the first commandment. The rich man was NOT the good man he had thought he was. Only God is good.
Here is the impossible command God has given to all mankind:

Obey God; keep His commands. Are we told to keep some of them or all of them? We must keep ALL of them. Do we keep all of them? No. Is fallen mankind able to keep all of them? No. We are fallen. Fallen sinners sin because they are sinners. ONLY GOD IS GOOD.
 
So tell me in the beginning of your post that Jesus was speaking to that man, and only to that man, and then proceed to tell me what Jesus was trying to tell all of us? You can’t have it both ways. You simply can’t bend the words to make them mean what you want them to. Yes Jesus was warning against the belief that we are good on our own, and I think everyone here agrees with that. He wasn’t, however, relieving creatures with God-given free will of all responsibility. He was informing us that THROUGH HIM we CAN do these things.
 
So tell me in the beginning of your post that Jesus was speaking to that man, and only to that man, and then proceed to tell me what Jesus was trying to tell all of us? You can’t have it both ways. You simply can’t bend the words to make them mean what you want them to. Yes Jesus was warning against the belief that we are good on our own, and I think everyone here agrees with that. He wasn’t, however, relieving creatures with God-given free will of all responsibility. He was informing us that THROUGH HIM we CAN do these things.
The teaching that only God is good and that all of us are lawbreakers who cannot keep the commands (“With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God”) is a teaching directed to all of God’s sheep. The instruction to the rich man (“Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”) was directed only to that one man.
 
Why can’t you see that our will being turned away from God is not a complete and utter ignorance of God?
I have never tried to suggest that our will being turned away from God IS a complete and utter ignorance of God. It isn’t so much a problem of ignorance as it is rebellion against God.
 
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