Salvation

[Odell]

If you have any desire to worship Mary, then you have no reason to think that you are saved.

Are you serious

Not that I desire too but you really make this debating with you way to easy

Check out what you said before

What do sinners want? They want to sin."

Do I need to say sanything else

But wait I need to make this a question or else you just skip right over it.

um how come you can desire to sin and be saved but I can not?

And the rich man desired to break the first commandment so he was not saved according to your rationality.

but then you say things like

“Your no better than him or how can we think we are any better than him”

Well are you saved or not Nick?

You keep digging your self deeper and deeper

The same thing He meant by this:

“With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

Question do you REALLY REALLY REALLY believe this?

Lets see the rich man could have avoided breaking the first commandment if he knew it was possible by God but Catholics or anyone for that matter cant keep 10 by the Grace of God.

That why yo dont REALLY believe ALL things are possible with God.

 

[JustaServant]

Anti-Catholics say Catholics are trying to ‘work their way into Heaven’, and then in practically the same breath say we ‘have no fruits (or works)’ to prove our salvation.
So, which is it? You can’t have it both ways.

 

[Odell]

By the grace of God, we are credited as perfectly obedient and righteous through our God-given faith in Jesus. I don’t think that this (the gospel message) is in any way contradicted by the teaching of Jesus in Mark 10.

Nick your not answering the question posted

Lets try again

I agree about physical death, but the text clearly shows that this was not what happened. Why, in Deut. Do we see God placing a choice before the people, and asking them to choose life, if this is not possible?".

at first you said It is not possible in response to guanophore

Originally Posted by Nick Jones
As I’ve already pointed out, it is not unusual for God to admonish or even command of us something that is impossible for mankind to do. See **Mark 10:21 **“Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Ok you used this to wiggle out of answering guanophore

But then you say

Originally Posted by Nick Jones
**It might be possible **for some people at certain times to be willing to sell all of their possessions and give their money to the poor.

So now you really have no answer to guanophore who possed you the question of why would God ask of us to choose life if it is impossible?

 

[guanophore]

Here is the impossible command God has given to all mankind:

Obey God; keep His commands. Are we told to keep some of them or all of them? We must keep ALL of them. Do we keep all of them? No. Is fallen mankind able to keep all of them? No. We are fallen. Fallen sinners sin because they are sinners. ONLY GOD IS GOOD.

I agree with you. However, it is possible to keep the commandments by walking in faith (not by flesh). If this were not so, how do you explain the existence of righteous people?

Luke 1:5-6
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

Heb 10:38
…my righteous one shall live by faith"

Jesus affirms the existence of righteous people (those who live by faith):

Matt 10:41
“…he who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.”

In Jesus’ teaching, righteousness is not just imputed, it is infused. He desires to create in us a clean heart.

Ezek 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.

He causes us to walk according to the commandments by creating a new heart in us, that desires to obey, and is not enslaved to sin.

I don’t see any inconsistency in saying that those who are spiritually dead will not (and therefore cannot) view themselves as utterly sinful and lost, and in desperate need of the Savior. If I’m wrong about any of this, please show me where I’ve gotten it wrong.

**

I don’t know that I would argue that. Without God’s grace, one cannot see. I think where we differ is that the Apostolic teaching is that this grace is made available to all (drawing grace), but that not all accept it (become regenerated by it), because it is not met with faith in the hearers.

Are you saying that Adam and Eve didn’t become evil by their falling away from God?

Yes, I am saying that. They fell into evil, and were stained and wounded by evil. However,

29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." Rom 11:29

The fall did not “undo” the fact that God made man in His own image and likeness. The image became distorted, but God is able to restore this to His intention by grace, through faith.

If man is evil, then he is not capable of choosing the good, so God giving mankind a commandment to “choose life” makes no sense, would you not agree?

Then why are some people going to hell?

Because the grace poured out by God that calls all men to salvation:

Acts 17:30
30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he **commands all men everywhere **to repent…’

is not met with faith in all men. Faith is a quality of the person. It must be mixed with God’s grace in order for the grace to be able to effect the desired result:

“For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers.” Heb 4:2

God desires that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, but some resist the HS, and therefore, the grace that is drawing them falls on rocky ground.

51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:51

This resistance is based in hubris and results in the hearers rejecting God’s prevenient grace.

“…the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves…” Luke 7:30

Yes. All of us have our own idols that we worship. Not one of us worships God alone. All of us break this one:

Please explain, in the light of this, how there are so many people in the OT who demonstrate otherwise? Please start with Luke 1:5-6.

By the grace of God, we are credited as perfectly obedient and righteous

through our God-given faith in Jesus.

Yes, this is the Apostolic Teaching of what happens in baptism. In fact, the church has always taught that, if a person dies immediately after baptism, they will go straight to heaven. However, most people live afterwards, and fall from that state of grace through disobedience.**

 

[guanophore]

Well, it seems to me

Had you considered that the teaching of Jesus is not based upon how things “seem” to you? I can understand how it might seem this way to you, but the facts indicate otherwise. This sense of salvation is derived from a black and white type of thinking that emerged from the Reformation, and is not consistent with what was passed on to us by the Apostles.

that wanting what is GOOD would most likely be the “fruit” of a good person, and wanting what is BAD would most likely be the “fruit” of a bad person. Are you more GOOD than those who say, “Hmmm, nope, don’t think I want it”? I’m just trying to determine the source of your GOODNESS, or HOW you are capable of using your free will better than those who don’t want the free ticket to heaven.

All goodness is from God. All are created in the image and likeness of God. God has fashioned each of us with a desire to be fulfilled in Himself. It has nothing to do with man’s goodness. It is how God created us.

Acts 17:23-30
24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27** that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28 for
‘In him we live and move and have our being’;
as even some of your poets have said,
‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ **29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent…"

“With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

I agree, but there is a strange dichotomy in your posts. You seem to affirm the above passage, yet you say it is not possible to keep the commandments.

 

[bookgirl32]

Well, it seems to me that wanting what is GOOD would most likely be the “fruit” of a good person, and wanting what is BAD would most likely be the “fruit” of a bad person. Are you more GOOD than those who say, “Hmmm, nope, don’t think I want it”? I’m just trying to determine the source of your GOODNESS, or HOW you are capable of using your free will better than those who don’t want the free ticket to heaven.

But you keep saying that God makes you want what is good? So which is it? God makes you want what is good, and therefore you do EVERYTHING good? Or you’re a sinner, and therefore can do NOTHING good? You’ve said both.

 

[Nick_Jones]

But you keep saying that God makes you want what is good? So which is it? God makes you want what is good, and therefore you do EVERYTHING good? Or you’re a sinner, and therefore can do NOTHING good? You’ve said both.

As the apostle Paul points out:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

 

[Joshua2006]

well, since I was informed that I hadn’t posted in a while, I figured I should get busy! This is my fourth post today.

While I am still studying, and may be getting this wrong, salvation in the RCA church seems so much more sure than in the RC church. I realize that RC’s say we can’t “work our way” to salvation, and yet on the other hand, I hear that it is possible to lost your salvation if you turn from God, and that OSAS is evil.

I’m currently reading a John Salza book, and he even says that good works don’t just flow from a Christian to prove that they are living a Christian life, but good works have salvific importance. Even though these are works done in and b/c of the grace of God, they are still works.

One post I read said something to the effect of “I hope I get to heaven” and that made me sad. Doesnt’ John 5:13 say that he taught what he taught to let us know what we need to be saved? Should there be such a question, or a disconnect between us here on earth and the Lord?

oneseeker

There’s a trick to it.
Don’t tell anyone, it’s a secret.

Believe God, not man.
Pretty simple really.

Roman 10:1-13
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

** 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. **

 

[Nick_Jones]

That why yo dont REALLY believe ALL things are possible with God.

Hi Odell,

I DO believe that all things are possible with God. That is why I’m trusting in His goodness for my salvation and not in my own so-called goodness.

But check out this thread. Notice that the entire emphasis of those who disagree with me is on their own GOODNESS. It is as though they view God as passive in salvation. God just sits up there hoping that everyone makes GOOD use of their free will. God can’t intervene in anyone’s hearts and minds to change what we want, since that would “violate” our free will. So the only people that receive salvation are the GOOD ones, who make GOOD use of their free will. God simply cannot save us without our goodwill cooperation!

 

[Nick_Jones]

Nick your not answering the question posted

Lets try again

I agree about physical death, but the text clearly shows that this was not what happened. Why, in Deut. Do we see God placing a choice before the people, and asking them to choose life, if this is not possible?".

at first you said It is not possible in response to guanophore

I never said we can’t make choices. But I have said that no one wants what is truly good without the grace of regeneration. And since our choices reflect our will (what we want) no unregenerate person would choose life, if choosing life requires repentance–a changed mind. Only a repentant (born again) person will choose life.

 

[Nick_Jones]

So now you really have no answer to guanophore who possed you the question of why would God ask of us to choose life if it is impossible?

What is the alternative? Should God have said, “choose death”?

 

[guanophore]

As the apostle Paul points out:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

I am glad that we can be in agreement that fallen man is able to desire what is good. Now, I think you may have stopped reading too soon!

Rom 8:1-5
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

Those who are in Christ are no longer enslaved to the sinful flesh, and the HS of God is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. As we set our minds on things of the Spirit, the just requirement of the laws are fulfilled in us (we are able to keep the commandments).

But check out this thread. Notice that the entire emphasis of those who disagree with me is on their own GOODNESS. It is as though they view God as passive in salvation.

I thought perhaps that you were reading and understanding, but clearly,you are unable to let go of your anti-Catholic prejudice. Salvation is a cooperative venture in which neither God, or the person, is “passive”. In fact, Christ requires that we work:

John 6:28
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”

Human beings must apply their faith and their will, in order to enter the fullness of grace. It is you who are trying to put “entire emphasis” on God, and make man passive.

I God just sits up there hoping that everyone makes GOOD use of their free will.

Well, of course He is! He desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. God is Love, and Love “hopes all things”. God created us to have fellowship with Him, why would He want anything less? Do you think He hopes all will be damned, or that He rejoices in the death of sinners?

God can’t intervene in anyone’s hearts and minds to change what we want, since that would “violate” our free will.

God is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure. But, you are right, He made us with free will, and He allows us the freedom to exercise it. Those that choose to walk away are permitted to do so.

"After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. " John 6:66

So the only people that receive salvation are the GOOD ones, who make GOOD use of their free will. God simply cannot save us without our goodwill cooperation!

This is where your prejudice is getting you lost. Choosing the good springs from grace, and not from innate goodness. No one is good except God, and no one can come to the Son unless the father draw him. Those that choose to throw themselves at the feet of Jesus are not any more morally fit than those who reject Him, they just accept that they need a savior. Even fallen men, as you pointed out, are able to desire what is good, but they cannot do it without grace.

“I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life…” Deut 30:19

You still have not explained this passage, Nick. Is there not really a choice? And if not, is God trying to trick the Israelites by offering something that does not exist?

Or, if there really is a choice, can you make a case that those who choose life are “trusting in their own goodness” instead of God’s goodness?

You have also not responded to this:

“…the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves…” Luke 7:30

If God destined them for perdition, then how is not following Him rejecting His purpose? If He desires them to be saved, then how can they withstand HIs will?

 

[Nick_Jones]

I agree with you. However, it is possible to keep the commandments by walking in faith (not by flesh). If this were not so, how do you explain the existence of righteous people?

In Jesus’ teaching, righteousness is not just imputed, it is infused. He desires to create in us a clean heart.

When does righteousness get infused into a person?

 

[guanophore]

I never said we can’t make choices. But I have said that no one wants what is truly good without the grace of regeneration.

So, you think the passage in Rom. 7 is only about regenerated people?

And since our choices reflect our will (what we want) no unregenerate person would choose life, if choosing life requires repentance–a changed mind. Only a repentant (born again) person will choose life.

How did the Israelites get “regenterated”? And if they were not, then why does it appear that God gives them a choice to choose life?

I agree, choosing life requires repentance, but we don’t associate repentance with being born again. There are some that repent, then return to their former way of life, and do not persist in grace to become born again.

What is the alternative? Should God have said, “choose death”?

Well, how about not offering a choice when one does not really exist?

If a person is not able to choose life over death, then why pretend it is possible? What kind of trick is God trying to play here?

 

[guanophore]

When does righteousness get infused into a person?

At the same time one is declared righteous, at baptism.

Gal 3:26-27
“For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Baptism is the “washing of regeneration”.

Titus 3:4-8
5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life."

 

[Nick_Jones]

You have also not responded to this:

“…the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves…” Luke 7:30

If God destined them for perdition, then how is not following Him rejecting His purpose? If He desires them to be saved, then how can they withstand HIs will?

We all get to make our own choices in life. I don’t read into this verse anything that refutes God’s sovereignty over all things.

(Holman Christian Standard Bible)

But since the Pharisees and experts in the law had not been baptized by him, they rejected the plan of God for themselves.

(Darby Translation)

but the Pharisees and the lawyers rendered null as to themselves the counsel of God, not having been baptised by him.

(King James Version)

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

 

[Nick_Jones]

At the same time one is declared righteous, at baptism.

Was the apostle Paul not yet baptized when he wrote the letter to the Romans?

 

[Nick_Jones]

So, you think the passage in Rom. 7 is only about regenerated people?

Paul is describing himself in the present tense here:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Well, how about not offering a choice when one does not really exist?

The choice does indeed exist, but evil unregenerate minds will not want to choose life, nor are they willing to view themselves as dead in sin. The spiritually dead are only willing to view themselves as basically good. Why would people who are confident in their own goodness seek after the Savior when they do not believe that they are lost?

If a person is not able to choose life over death, then why pretend it is possible? What kind of trick is God trying to play here?

It isn’t a trick. God really doesn’t have to save anyone. It would not be a trick or an injustice for God to send all of us sinners to hell for eternity.

 

[guanophore]

We all get to make our own choices in life. I don’t read into this verse anything that refutes God’s sovereignty over all things.

(Holman Christian Standard Bible)

But since the Pharisees and experts in the law had not been baptized by him, they rejected the plan of God for themselves.

(Darby Translation)

but the Pharisees and the lawyers rendered null as to themselves the counsel of God, not having been baptised by him.

(King James Version)

But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Ok, so are we in agreement that God desires all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth?

Are we in agreement that people can choose to reject this purpose of God for themselves?

Was the apostle Paul not yet baptized when he wrote the letter to the Romans?

Baptized, but how do you know whether he is speaking of his pre-Christ struggle, or not?

Paul is describing himself in the present tense here:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

I agree. So, now the dilemma is, how is it that a person can both will what is right, yet have “another law at work” that wills sin, unless one is still made in the image of God, and yet has a fallen nature? Both things are true at the same time!

The choice does indeed exist, but evil unregenerate minds will not want to choose life, nor are they willing to view themselves as dead in sin.

Please explain how the population to which this choice was given became “regenerated”. Also, please explain how, if none of them are “regenerated” how a choice exists, since you have said that the unregenerate mind cannot choose the good.

The spiritually dead are only willing to view themselves as basically good.  Why would people who are confident in their own goodness seek after the Savior when they do not believe that they are lost?

I don’t agree with this foundational assertion, and I don’t think it is possible for you to show that, either. There are many spiritually dead people who do not see themselves as good. In fact, I would say that every person that the Father draws to Christ and respond, moving from death into life, see themselves as needing salvation. Earlier I posted a quote from John 6, about disciples that no longer followed Him. How did they get to be disciples? They obviously saw that they needed what He was teaching! However, He came to a teaching that was “too hard to accept”, so they left. If they were unregenerate, how did they get to be disciples? If they were regenerated, why did they not persist in faith?

It isn’t a trick. God really doesn’t have to save anyone. It would not be a trick or an injustice for God to send all of us sinners to hell for eternity.

then why offer a choice, if it does not exist? I agree, God does not have to save anyone, and we are all deserving of hell. So what is the point of putting a choice before the people that does not really exist? If He already knows who He is going to save, and who is going to be damned, why the pretense?

 

[Odell]

Hi Odell,

I DO believe that all things are possible with God. That is why I’m trusting in His goodness for my salvation and not in my own so-called goodness.
!

NICK you skipped over my whole post lets try this again

how come you can desire to sin and be saved but I can no desire to sin or break the first commandment and be saved?

and again not that I do desire but you specifically said

What do sinners want? They want to sin."

The rich man wanted to keep his money he wanted to sin he wanted to break the first commandment.

Do you think you are any better than the rich man or do you think Im any less than the rich man if I desired to worship Mary (hypothetically) and break the first commanment as he did?