Salvation

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Nick_Jones said:
As the apostle Paul points out:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
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Okay, that’s great, now try answering my question.
 
bookgirl32 said:
But you keep saying that God makes you want what is good? So which is it? God makes you want what is good, and therefore you do EVERYTHING good? Or you’re a sinner, and therefore can do NOTHING good? You’ve said both.
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There is often a big difference between what we want and what we DO. Ask a three hundred pound young lady if she wants to be fat. I’m betting that she doesn’t want to be fat, but she is, in some way, unable to DO what she must do to loose her weight. Her “spirit” might be very willing to do something about her problem but her flesh is weak.
 
Nick_Jones said:
There is often a big difference between what we want and what we DO. Ask a three hundred pound young lady if she wants to be fat. I’m betting that she doesn’t want to be fat, but she is, in some way, unable to DO what she must do to loose her weight. Her “spirit” might be very willing to do something about her problem but her flesh is weak.
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But Jesus was talking about actually doing, so what was he saying, “here’s an example of what you should do but can’t” or “here’s what you should do”? You’re NOT answering the question.
 
Nick_Jones said:
There is often a big difference between what we want and what we DO. Ask a three hundred pound young lady if she wants to be fat. I’m betting that she doesn’t want to be fat, but she is, in some way, unable to DO what she must do to loose her weight. Her “spirit” might be very willing to do something about her problem but her flesh is weak.
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If you prefer to think of it like this… Bad example but if it will help… here it goes…

Your saying that it’s not her fault that she is in the condiction that she is in, it’s her nature.

When in reality, she just doesn’t exercise her “free will” to lose weight. The attitude that “it’s not her fault”, is not helping her, it is enabling her. She is the problem not everything else she tries to blame it on, not society, not bad parenting, not God., her fault.
 
Sean_Boyle said:
If you prefer to think of it like this… Bad example but if it will help… here it goes…

Your saying that it’s not her fault that she is in the condiction that she is in, it’s her nature.

When in reality, she just doesn’t exercise her “free will” to lose weight. The attitude that “it’s not her fault”, is not helping her, it is enabling her. She is the problem not everything else she tries to blame it on, not society, not bad parenting, not God., her fault.
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Even if is not her “fault” she is still responsible for her condition. It is the same with anyone who has an addiction, diabetes, or any other serious chronic health condition. They may be influenced by genetics, environment, and bad health behaviors. Maybe they did not set out to have a problem but now that they have it, they are responsibile for addressing it. They need to take corrective action. An addict can choose not to put drugs in the body. A diabetic can manage their diet and take their insulin. A person with a heart disease can exercise and get their checkups.

To translate to the spiritual realm, a person may not be responsible for the mess they are in, but they can certainly take responsibility for getting out of it. A person who was brought up in a spiritually negative environment can become educated, and throw oneself on the mercy of God. One does not have to continue in sin.
 
Nick_Jones said:
Was the apostle Paul not yet baptized when he wrote the letter to the Romans?
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Paul was baptized long before writing Romans.

Specifically, three days after his conversation with Jesus on the Damascus road. (Acts 9:1-19)

Acts 9:9 notes that St. Paul was blind for three days.
In Acts 9:18, he was both healed & baptized.

Romans was written about 10-20 years later.

Chris
 
Sean_Boyle said:
If you prefer to think of it like this… Bad example but if it will help… here it goes…

Your saying that it’s not her fault that she is in the condiction that she is in, it’s her nature.

When in reality, she just doesn’t exercise her “free will” to lose weight. The attitude that “it’s not her fault”, is not helping her, it is enabling her. She is the problem not everything else she tries to blame it on, not society, not bad parenting, not God., her fault.
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True. It is her own fault that she is fat. But it is also her nature to be fat.
 
Nick_Jones said:
True. It is her own fault that she is fat. But it is also her nature to be fat.
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That’s the whole point, she has the choice to choose against her nature. We have the choice, and with God’s grace the ability, to choose against our nature.
 
bookgirl32 said:
But Jesus was talking about actually doing, so what was he saying, “here’s an example of what you should do but can’t” or “here’s what you should do”? You’re NOT answering the question.
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No, in the commandments God is telling us what we MUST ACTUALLY DO.
 
jimmy said:
The Catholic Church makes the point that you must have both faith and works to recieve salvation. The essence of this idea is not that you must do certain things to recieve salvation, but that you must have love. The only work which matters is love. Christ left us one commandment and that is to love as He has loved us. That love is the result of faith. The more your faith in Christ increases; the more your faith in the resurrection increases the more you will love. Perfect love is the result of a faith that Christ is merciful. Read John’s gospel and epistles and you will get a good grasp of the importance of love.

We believe you can lose your salvation because you always have the free will to reject Christ. We can hope in the mercy of God though because as the scriptures say, ‘His steadfast mercy endures forever.’
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When we say we hope to get to heaven is that since we are free to reject Christ, it is possible that at some time we will. Why we would is the question, but that is the nature of sin.
When it is said to us that “we know when we are saved,” the converse is we known when we are NOT saved.
 
Hello. Totally lost here. Is this conversation, argument about Predestination, once saved always saved, once condemned, always condemned? If one believes once saved, always saved, then does one believe one will get to heaven no matter what one does, good or bad? This belief is a complete mystery to me and my brain cannot comprehend it. I have a Baptist friend, who if I am not misquoting her, believes once saved, if you fall, all you have to say is “Sorry God”, pick yourself up and on you go, trying to do better from then on? If I do understand what you are saying, then you believe you need no intermediary, such as the Church, for you to get to Heaven? I really think the goal is the same for non-catholics and catholics. Just the approach is different. Why argue about Faith and try to prove each other wrong? It never works. “The only way to win, is not to play the game.” 🙂 😉 Peace.
 
elt1956 said:
Hello. Totally lost here. Is this conversation, argument about Predestination, once saved always saved, once condemned, always condemned? If one believes once saved, always saved, then does one believe one will get to heaven no matter what one does, good or bad? This belief is a complete mystery to me and my brain cannot comprehend it. I have a Baptist friend, who if I am not misquoting her, believes once saved, if you fall, all you have to say is “Sorry God”, pick yourself up and on you go, trying to do better from then on? If I do understand what you are saying, then you believe you need no intermediary, such as the Church, for you to get to Heaven? I really think the goal is the same for non-catholics and catholics. Just the approach is different. Why argue about Faith and try to prove each other wrong? It never works. “The only way to win, is not to play the game.” 🙂 😉 Peace.
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It started as a “faith alone” thread pertaining to salvation. One person posting here is a Calvanist, and the thread has since kind of morphed into what it originally was, PLUS Calvanism.
 
guanophore said:
Finally something we can agree upon!!
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Hi guanophore,

I have really enjoyed our discussions here at CAF. I have just received a message telling me that I’m banned from this forum.

May God bless you,

Nick Jones
 
ChrisWRIT said:
Paul was baptized long before writing Romans.

Specifically, three days after his conversation with Jesus on the Damascus road. (Acts 9:1-19)

Acts 9:9 notes that St. Paul was blind for three days.
In Acts 9:18, he was both healed & baptized.

Romans was written about 10-20 years later.

Chris
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Hi Chris,

It has been wonderful discussing these things with you. I have just received a message telling me that I’m being banned from this forum.

May God bless you,

Nick Jones
 
bookgirl32 said:
It started as a “faith alone” thread pertaining to salvation. One person posting here is a Calvanist, and the thread has since kind of morphed into what it originally was, PLUS Calvanism.
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Hi bookgirl,

It has been wonderful discussing these things with you. I have just received a message telling me that I’m being banned from this forum.

May God bless you,

Nick Jones
 
Shoot I was expecting Nick to answer my questions. But who was I kidding? 😃
 
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