Same sex marriage laws

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KarenNC said:
Then, if you truly believe that they are the same thing based on that criteria, you should be campaigning to remove any right that heterosexuals have to civil marriage on the same grounds.šŸ¤·
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Thatā€™s just absurd! You are the one who used that criteria.

That IS NOT my criteria.

That was just a shameful way to try and turn around my words!:mad:
 
Teen4Christ said:
Back on topicā€¦

SSM should be legal everywhere!
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Actually if you read the first post that is not the topic;)

as a side noteā€¦when the gates of hell prevail against the Church then SSM can be legal everywhere:D
 
iamrefreshed said:
Thatā€™s just absurd! You are the one who used that criteria.

That IS NOT my criteria.

That was just a shameful way to try and turn around my words!:mad:
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No, I have never said that I equated incestuous relationships and homosexual relationships. I raised the problem of whether there is actually free consent in an incestuous relationship of the sort you describe because of other interpersonal dynamics. It is similar to the question of whether there can be free consent for a sexual relationship between a teacher and a student, a doctor or therapist and a patient, etc. The parties involved are usually not in an equal position of power.

You said that you equate homosexual relationships between unrelated consenting adults with incestuous relationships because they were both between consenting adults. I believe the term was ā€œapples to applesā€. Heterosexual relationships between unrelated consenting adults are just as much between consenting adults as are homosexual ones between unrelated consenting adults.

If you claim that a=b and that b=c, then b=c as well. No need to turn them around.
 
Teen4Christ said:
Y tsktsk? heā€™s SOOOOOOOOOOO beautiful!!!
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Teen and wifeandmom, if you would both like to exit the middle school locker room and engage in an adult level of civil conversation, it would be greatly appreciated.
 
šŸ˜› O.K.
Teenā€¦FYI my TSK was for the comment about the gates of hell prevailing and you said hopefully soon:mad:
KarenNC said:
Teen and wifeandmom, if you would both like to exit the middle school locker room and engage in an adult level of civil conversation, it would be greatly appreciated.
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KarenNC said:
No, I have never said that I equated incestuous relationships and homosexual relationships. I raised the problem of whether there is actually free consent in an incestuous relationship of the sort you describe because of other interpersonal dynamics. It is similar to the question of whether there can be free consent for a sexual relationship between a teacher and a student, a doctor or therapist and a patient, etc. The parties involved are usually not in an equal position of power.

You said that you equate homosexual relationships between unrelated consenting adults with incestuous relationships because they were both between consenting adults. I believe the term was ā€œapples to applesā€. Heterosexual relationships between unrelated consenting adults are just as much between consenting adults as are homosexual ones between unrelated consenting adults.

If you claim that a=b and that b=c, then b=c as well. No need to turn them around.
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So now you are going to tell me what I think?:rolleyes:

You need to read all my posts. I said IF you use the criteria of consenting adults WHICH MOST supporters of SSM use. Get that? IF/WHICH MOST? Does not mean ME!

I donā€™t support SSM. YOU DO. WHY? Is it because it is two consenting adults engaging in a loving relationship?

Are you one of those people who is never wrong?
 
iamrefreshed said:
So now you are going to tell me what I think?:rolleyes:

You need to read all my posts. I said IF you use the criteria of consenting adults WHICH MOST supporters of SSM use. Get that? IF/WHICH MOST? Does not mean ME!

I donā€™t support SSM. YOU DO. WHY? Is it because it is two consenting adults engaging in a loving relationship?
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I can only respond to what you write. You have given no statement as to why you oppose same sex marriage other than you believe it is equivalent to incest.

ā€œI just donā€™t see why one can be allowed, SSM, and not the other, incest. In my head itā€™s apples to apples.ā€
ā€œThey are apples & apples if you use the criteria of two consenting adults engaging in a relationship.ā€
ā€œWhy should homosexuals be allowed to copulate and not family?ā€

My response:
ā€œThen, if you truly believe that they are the same thing based on that criteria, you should be campaigning to remove any right that heterosexuals have to civil marriage on the same grounds.ā€

It is a logical extension of the conditions that you chose to set in this discussion and criteria you chose to put forth.

If a=b and b=c, then a=c.

If this is not indicative of your true position, then I am afraid you have communicated that position poorly.

I do not believe that incest as you define it (between siblings or parent/child for instance, rather than between cousins, as some groups define it) is the same as a sexual relationship between consenting adults who are not from the same immediate family, regardless of whether that sexual relationship is heterosexual or homosexual. Because of the other dynamics that are occurring around incest, there is a huge question of whether the partners can both actually equally freely consent and is not usually initiated between adults.

faqs.org/health/topics/68/Incest.html
**While neither women who are raped nor incest victims willingly give consent,the childā€™s experience differs because of the adultā€™s authority and importance in his or her life. The perpetrator gains access to the child by betraying the childā€™s special trust and by exploiting the childā€™s powerlessness. Thus,incest can be viewed as a form of rape (sexual penetration through the use of force with lack of consent on the part of the victim) within the family, with the added potential for psychological damage to the victim due to the relationship between the child and the adultā€¦

Incest most commonly begins when a child is between the ages of eight and twelve. **

I support same sex civil marriage because I can see no reason to bar civil marriage for consenting adults who are homosexual for any reason other than those reasons that also bar civil marriage for consenting adults who are heterosexual.

As a brother and sister are not granted a civil marriage even though men and women can have a civil marriage, I see no reason to presume that a brother and brother or sister and sister would be given one.
Are you one of those people who is never wrong?
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No, are you?
 
KarenNC said:
I support same sex civil marriage because I can see no reason to bar civil marriage for consenting adults who are homosexual for any reason other than those reasons that also bar civil marriage for consenting adults who are heterosexual.

As a brother and sister are not granted a civil marriage even though men and women can have a civil marriage, I see no reason to presume that a brother and brother or sister and sister would be given one.

No, are you?
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Iā€™ve read enough of your posts here and elsewhere to know Iā€™ll never get a straight answer from you. You must be an attorney;)

Instead of a simple straight answer you give answers like that above. Instead of answering why you support SSM you answer with riddles about not barring.

BTW YOU used the words ā€˜consenting adultsā€™ again. Is that why you support SSM?

And you think I canā€™t convey my position well?:rolleyes:
 
iamrefreshed said:
Iā€™ve read enough of your posts here and elsewhere to know Iā€™ll never get a straight answer from you. You must be an attorney;)

Instead of a simple straight answer you give answers like that above. Instead of answering why you support SSM you answer with riddles about not barring.

BTW YOU used the words ā€˜consenting adultsā€™ again. Is that why you support SSM?
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ā€œBarā€ in this context means to prohibit, prevent or forbid something. Does that solve the ā€œriddleā€?

I have told you very clearly why I support same sex civil marriage. Itā€™s called equal treatment under the law. What is a ā€œriddleā€ in saying ā€œif it isnā€™t a reason heterosexual couples canā€™t have a civil marriage, I see no basis for saying itā€™s a reason homosexual couples canā€™t have a civil marriageā€? Or about my first post ā€œincestuous sexual relationships are illegal, same sex sexual relationships are notā€? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Heterosexual people cannot have an incestuous marriage. That is sufficient reason for me to expect that homosexual people would also not be able to enter into an incestuous marriage. Seems pretty clear.šŸ¤·

Yes, I used the phrase ā€œconsenting adultsā€ again. I am very likely to do so in the future. ā€œConsentingā€ is an important adjective in terms of sexual relationships and the cornerstone of the difference between the sorts of incestuous relationships you describe and same sex relationships. So is ā€œadultā€. Marriage laws are based on the presumption that both parties are legally able to make their own decisions (ie adults, unless their guardian signs for them) and that both parties enter into the contract of their own free will (consenting).

As you describe yourself as the spouse of someone who has suffered incestuous abuse, I am really at a loss to explain how you can fail to see the importance of both those words in terms of sexual relationships. I would certainly not describe most victims of incest as adults who freely consented to the incestuous relationship and entered into it willingly and eagerly, fully understanding what was going to happen. Go back and read the link that I provided on the consent issues related to incest if you are unclear on that point.

Hereā€™s another if you need further clarification
rainn.org/types-of-assault/sexual-assault/incest.html
 
KarenNC said:
ā€œBarā€ in this context means to prohibit, prevent or forbid something. Does that solve the ā€œriddleā€?

I have told you very clearly why I support same sex civil marriage. Itā€™s called equal treatment under the law. What is a ā€œriddleā€ in saying ā€œif it isnā€™t a reason heterosexual couples canā€™t have a civil marriage, I see no basis for saying itā€™s a reason homosexual couples canā€™t have a civil marriageā€? Or about my first post ā€œincestuous sexual relationships are illegal, same sex sexual relationships are notā€? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Heterosexual people cannot have an incestuous marriage. That is sufficient reason for me to expect that homosexual people would also not be able to enter into an incestuous marriage. Seems pretty clear.šŸ¤·

Yes, I used the phrase ā€œconsenting adultsā€ again. I am very likely to do so in the future. ā€œConsentingā€ is an important adjective in terms of sexual relationships and the cornerstone of the difference between the sorts of incestuous relationships you describe and same sex relationships. So is ā€œadultā€. Marriage laws are based on the presumption that both parties are legally able to make their own decisions (ie adults, unless their guardian signs for them) and that both parties enter into the contract of their own free will (consenting).

As you describe yourself as the spouse of someone who has suffered incestuous abuse, I am really at a loss to explain how you can fail to see the importance of both those words in terms of sexual relationships. I would certainly not describe most victims of incest as adults who freely consented to the incestuous relationship and entered into it willingly and eagerly, fully understanding what was going to happen. Go back and read the link that I provided on the consent issues related to incest if you are unclear on that point.

Hereā€™s another if you need further clarification
rainn.org/types-of-assault/sexual-assault/incest.html
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Thanks for the links. Unfortunately Iā€™m already well versed with them and the impact of incest on children. However, that is off topic. The question is about incestuous relationships between ā€˜consenting adultsā€™. You may question their consent but that is just opinion.

Hereā€™s a very simple question.

If a sane man and his sane sister wanted to wed do you think they should be allowed?
 
I donā€™t support civil unions for gays or gay marriages. Both are an abomination to the Lord.
 
KarenNC said:
I support same sex civil marriage because I can see no reason to bar civil marriage for consenting adults who are homosexual for any reason other than those reasons that also bar civil marriage for consenting adults who are heterosexual.

As a brother and sister are not granted a civil marriage even though men and women can have a civil marriage, I see no reason to presume that a brother and brother or sister and sister would be given one.
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In defending your opposition to incestuous marriage, you are appealing to the law. You canā€™t do this because the law is changeable.

In opposing SSM, we are appealing to a Higher Authority than the law, and His Law never changes.
 
Spirithound said:
In defending your opposition to incestuous marriage, you are appealing to the law. You canā€™t do this because the law is changeable.

In opposing SSM, we are appealing to a Higher Authority than the law, and His Law never changes.
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Why can I not appeal to the law because it changes? We all do so, all the time. Often (hopefully in most cases) it changes for the better.

Go back and reread my discussions about incest. They are not, as has been asserted, apples and apples any more than heterosexual marriage and heterosexual incest are.

As to opposition of SSM, I fully understand what you are doing and that would be all that needed to be said if the topic was sacramental marriage in the Roman Catholic Church. However, that is not the issue in discussing SSM. The issue is civil marriage according to US law. Two quite different things.
 
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