San Diego bishop calls for a practical ‘apology’ to L.G.B.T. Catholics

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Counterpoint, the average marriage age has never been higher. People are not just jumping into marriage after a year. Using personal anecdotes, I was “dating” my wife for 7 years before we got engaged. My brother for a good 4 before he got engaged.

My parents in the previous generation, were together a mere 6 months before they got engaged by comparison.

I would like to note that between 1750 and 1849 in England, France and Germany the median age for women to get married was 25 years old, after that it proceeded to fall. In the US in 1890 the median age for men was 26.1 for males and 22.0 for females, after that for each census it declined until 1950 where it leveled out and started climbing again in 1970 where it has continued to do so each census. The US only had such low ages because land was so cheap that people could acquire their own home much earlier than on the continent.

My parents only met a few times before they were married, and there were many marriages in the Bible that were arranged marriages. Would you call these types of marriages loveless, or marriages built on infatuation? Then explain to me how those marriages lasted longer than the ones we see today. Love is something that takes a lifetime together to build and it takes a real commitment. They believed death was the only way to be separated and their children felt secure knowing this. These marriages were not perfect, but they loved each other till the end of their lives because they knew God would be waiting for them and reward them for their faith and their obedience to His laws. The relationship between and man and a woman was by God’s design. It is an intimate partnership of life and love established by the Creator and governed by his laws.

Conjugal fidelity

2364** The married couple forms "the intimate partnership of life and love established by the Creator and governed by his laws; it is rooted in the conjugal covenant, that is, in their irrevocable personal consent."146 Both give themselves definitively and totally to one another. They are no longer two; from now on they form one flesh.** the covenant they freely contracted imposes on the spouses the obligation to preserve it as unique and indissoluble.147 "What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."148

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P86.HTM

You completely misunderstood me, I was criticizing marriages of “passionate love” where people are “swept off their feet”, where people feel “lovesick”. Arranged marriages while often lacking in “passionate love” where people are “wooed” and “swept off their feet” are instead where relationship are built brick by brick and where people choose to love each other. Arranged marriages when arranged by parents tend to lack acrimony between in-laws and also weed out those characteristic that seems endearing while dating, but when living with them makes you want scream.

 

[philipl]

The pope’s call for Christians to offer an apology to gay and lesbian people was also carefully welcomed this week by Bishop Robert McElroy of San Diego. “I think it opens up a very helpful pathway to dialogue and hopefully healing,” he said. Pope Francis, Bishop McElroy said, brings to this dialogue with L.G.B.T. Catholics who feel marginalized by or alienated from the church a “renewed and deepened focus on the questions of accompaniment and the mercy of God for all of us.”

“We all walk together in a life of virtue and discipleship,” Bishop McElroy said, “and all of us fail at times.”

He adds: “We have to begin to incorporate that mercy into the depths of our hearts and souls in ways that are going to be uncomfortable for us…. We all need to be shown mercy; it is something that binds us together, not differentiates us.”

“What we need to project in the life of the church is ‘You are part of us and we are part of you.’ [L.G.B.T. Catholics] are part of our families.”

That is not going to be an easy process, he acknowledged. It is one that will require preparation and “a lot of discussion and accompaniment and reflection in the church.” Bishop McElroy emphasized that he does not mean that reflection and accompaniment should be limited to L.G.B.T. Catholics. He said all members of the Catholic community who will be struggling with the idea of apology and welcoming gay and lesbian Catholics will similarly require accompaniment and reflection.

americamagazine.org/content/dispatches/digging-deep-mercy-we-all-need

How do you apologize when you have done nothing wrong?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

How do you apologize when you have done nothing wrong?

Every man, woman and child who is baptised is able to implore forgiveness in this concern in the exact same manner that Pope Saint John Paul II directed all of us to do on the First Sunday of Lent during the Great Jubilee 2000:
*/…/
3. Before Christ who, out of love, took our guilt upon himself, we are all invited to make a profound examination of conscience. One of the characteristic elements of the Great Jubilee is what I described as the “purification of memory” (Bull Incarnationis mysterium, n. 11). As the Successor of Peter, I asked that "in this year of mercy the Church, strong in the holiness which she receives from her Lord, should kneel before God and implore forgiveness for the past and present sins of her sons and daughters" (ibid.). Today, the First Sunday of Lent, seemed to me the right occasion for the Church, gathered spiritually round the Successor of Peter, to implore divine forgiveness for the sins of all believers. Let us forgive and ask forgiveness!

This appeal has prompted a thorough and fruitful reflection, which led to the publication several days ago of a document of the International Theological Commission, entitled: “Memory and Reconciliation: The Church and the Faults of the Past”. I thank everyone who helped to prepare this text. It is very useful for correctly understanding and carrying out the authentic request for pardon, based on the objective responsibility which Christians share as members of the Mystical Body, and which spurs today’s faithful to recognize, along with their own sins, the sins of yesterday’s Christians, in the light of careful historical and theological discernment.

Indeed, “because of the bond which unites us to one another in the Mystical Body, all of us, though not personally responsible and without encroaching on the judgement of God who alone knows every heart, bear the burden of the errors and faults of those who have gone before us” (Incarnationis mysterium, n. 11).
/…/*
I am more intrigued by the closing statement of the Bishop.
He said all members of the Catholic community who will be struggling with the idea of apology and welcoming gay and lesbian Catholics will similarly require accompaniment and reflection.
As a priest, I am most interested to know his particular insights on how those with the *cura animarum *should seek to re-orient the thoughts of anyone who would hesitate to comply with what is being directed by the Successor of Peter and the Successors of the Apostles.

Unquestionably, since this originates with the Pope and with the Bishops of the Dioceses, such persons who would struggle to comply would indeed be in need of pastoral care and accompaniment themselves. How very well and thoughtfully said. It is certainly a phrasing I will adopt as part of my own response.

I don’t precisely understand though if the “reflection” he calls for
*1) Is it a pastoral action toward the person(s) who struggle to comply?

or

1. Is it reflection on the part of those with pastoral care (and those who are complying) who are reflecting about the harm that the persons who struggle to comply are doing by their not complying?

Hopefully he will share his thoughts on this entire matter more fully…and not only with his own presbyterate but with his brother bishops as well as priests throughout the world since he, with other bishops of the United States, are among the vanguard on this with Pope Francis and Cardinal Marx.

I am pleased to see the American bishops taking up this directive of the Pope and Cardinal Marx. Hopefully the College of Bishops as a whole will turn their intention to the implementation of all this to make the pastoral action more cohesive and effective…perhaps at the level of the national conferences of bishops

The people of San Diego are greatly blessed to have been given this bishop.

 

[JosieN]

Absolutely spot on. The Church abhors adultery and sodomy in the same way and the OneTrue Church will never endorse sin.
The issue is that this is the modern contemporary sole focus but it is in fact one of many disordered desires. The media have made this a “value” but that’s why the media despise the Church. The media’s constant drive to celebrate sin is part of their motivation to destroy the faith. They’ll never succeed.

 

[philipl]

Every man, woman and child who is baptised is able to implore forgiveness in this concern in the exact same manner that Pope Saint John Paul II directed all of us to do on the First Sunday of Lent during the Great Jubilee 2000:
/…/
3. Before Christ who, out of love, took our guilt upon himself, we are all invited to make a profound examination of conscience. One of the characteristic elements of the Great Jubilee is what I described as the “purification of memory” (Bull Incarnationis mysterium, n. 11). As the Successor of Peter, I asked that "in this year of mercy the Church, strong in the holiness which she receives from her Lord, should kneel before God and implore forgiveness for the past and present sins of her sons and daughters" (ibid.). Today, the First Sunday of Lent, seemed to me the right occasion for the Church, gathered spiritually round the Successor of Peter, to implore divine forgiveness for the sins of all believers. Let us forgive and ask forgiveness!

This appeal has prompted a thorough and fruitful reflection, which led to the publication several days ago of a document of the International Theological Commission, entitled: “Memory and Reconciliation: The Church and the Faults of the Past”. I thank everyone who helped to prepare this text. It is very useful for correctly understanding and carrying out the authentic request for pardon, based on the objective responsibility which Christians share as members of the Mystical Body, and which spurs today’s faithful to recognize, along with their own sins, the sins of yesterday’s Christians, in the light of careful historical and theological discernment.

Indeed, “because of the bond which unites us to one another in the Mystical Body, all of us, though not personally responsible and without encroaching on the judgement of God who alone knows every heart, bear the burden of the errors and faults of those who have gone before us” (Incarnationis mysterium, n. 11).
/…/
I am more intrigued by the closing statement of the Bishop.
He said all members of the Catholic community who will be struggling with the idea of apology and welcoming gay and lesbian Catholics will similarly require accompaniment and reflection.
As a priest, I am most interested to know his particular insights on how those with the *cura animarum *should seek to re-orient the thoughts of anyone who would hesitate to comply with what is being directed by the Successor of Peter and the Successors of the Apostles.

Unquestionably, since this originates with the Pope and with the Bishops of the Dioceses, such persons who would struggle to comply would indeed be in need of pastoral care and accompaniment themselves. How very well and thoughtfully said. It is certainly a phrasing I will adopt as part of my own response.

I don’t precisely understand though if the “reflection” he calls for
*1) Is it a pastoral action toward the person(s) who struggle to comply?

or

1. Is it reflection on the part of those with pastoral care (and those who are complying) who are reflecting about the harm that the persons who struggle to comply are doing by their not complying?

Hopefully he will share his thoughts on this entire matter more fully…and not only with his own presbyterate but with his brother bishops as well as priests throughout the world since he, with other bishops of the United States, are among the vanguard on this with Pope Francis and Cardinal Marx.

I am pleased to see the American bishops taking up this directive of the Pope and Cardinal Marx. Hopefully the College of Bishops as a whole will turn their intention to the implementation of all this to make the pastoral action more cohesive and effective…perhaps at the level of the national conferences of bishops

The people of San Diego are greatly blessed to have been given this bishop.

Lets boil this down. so any husband that believes he has never abused his wife need to think really hard and long until he realizes that he has in fact abused his wife.

 

[Padres1969]

Still have not seen anything with Bishop McElroy’s complete remarks from the Orlando memorial on July 9. However I have found a partial quote from His Excellency.

“This terrible time of sorrow calls us to see one another as God sees us. There are no children of a lesser god and there are no lesser children of the one God who is the father of us all,” said Bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Diego, while addressing the memorial attendees. “Our failure to recognize this simple reality is the greatest sorrow of all”.

laprensa-sandiego.org/stories/35913/

 

[JosieN]

Still have not seen anything with Bishop McElroy’s complete remarks from the Orlando memorial on July 9. However I have found a partial quote from His Excellency.

“This terrible time of sorrow calls us to see one another as God sees us. There are no children of a lesser god and there are no lesser children of the one God who is the father of us all,” said Bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Diego, while addressing the memorial attendees. “Our failure to recognize this simple reality is the greatest sorrow of all”.

Is there a Bible quote that supports his statement that “there are no lesser children of the one God who is father of us all.” ? It does not remind me of any that I am familiar with. Obviously I am not familiar with them all, I am most familiar with the quotes I like most. Here is one I am familiar with and like to read. I think it has an important message attached to it for us.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, and everyone who loves the father loves (also) the one begotten by him. **In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments. For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. **And his commandments are not burdensome, for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith. Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:1-5

 

[TMC]

Is there a Bible quote that supports his statement that “there are no lesser children of the one God who is father of us all.” ? It does not remind me of any that I am familiar with. Obviously I am not familiar with them all, I am most familiar with the quotes I like most. Here is one I am familiar with and like to read. I think it has an important message attached to it for us.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, and everyone who loves the father loves (also) the one begotten by him. **In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments. For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. **And his commandments are not burdensome, for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith. Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:1-5

Seriously? You need a citation to support the proposition that all of us are children of God?

 

[estesbob]

Seriously? You need a citation to support the proposition that all of us are children of God?

 

[JosieN]

Seriously? You need a citation to support the proposition that all of us are children of God?

I thought we become children of God after we are baptised. So I was surprised to see that we are all children of God because we are all not baptized. Then I thought maybe I missed a quote or a Church teaching that said something different. Here is what I have found. If you can find another source I would be happy to learn about it.

Children of God

The sacrament of Baptism not only gives us sanctifying grace: it also makes us adopted children of God and heirs of heaven.

We say “adopted” children because God the Father has only one begotten Son—Jesus Christ. He is God’s only Son through generation; the rest of us become God’s children by adoption.

As children of God, we receive our inheritance at the very moment of our adoption, at the very moment of Baptism. Our inheritance is eternal union with God, and we have that inheritance now, once we are baptized.

Nobody can take this inheritance away. Not even God, who has bound Himself by irrevocable promise never to take back what He has given. We ourselves can renounce our rights—as we will do if we commit mortal sin—but no one else can deprive us of our heritage.

beginningcatholic.com/baptism.html

I also thought you needed to believe in Jesus Christ.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- **John 1:12
**

 

[irenaeus1]

I thought we become children of God after we are baptised. So I was surprised to see that we are all children of God because we are all not baptized. Then I thought maybe I missed a quote or a Church teaching that said something different. Here is what I have found. If you can find another source I would be happy to learn about it.

Children of God

The sacrament of Baptism not only gives us sanctifying grace: it also makes us adopted children of God and heirs of heaven.

We say “adopted” children because God the Father has only one begotten Son—Jesus Christ. He is God’s only Son through generation; the rest of us become God’s children by adoption.

As children of God, we receive our inheritance at the very moment of our adoption, at the very moment of Baptism. Our inheritance is eternal union with God, and we have that inheritance now, once we are baptized.

Nobody can take this inheritance away. Not even God, who has bound Himself by irrevocable promise never to take back what He has given. We ourselves can renounce our rights—as we will do if we commit mortal sin—but no one else can deprive us of our heritage.

beginningcatholic.com/baptism.html

I also thought you needed to believe in Jesus Christ.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- **John 1:12
**

You are correct. Only those who are baptized have received the spirit of adoption, and are thus children of God. We are “all” (i.e., all people, baptized believers or not) children of God only in the sense that we are all His creation made in His image and likeness; we are His creatures, and so there is a sense in which it can be said that we are all children of God, but this can cause confusion. In the strict and proper sense, the children of God are only those who believe and are baptized.

 

[TMC]

I thought we become children of God after we are baptised. So I was surprised to see that we are all children of God because we are all not baptized. Then I thought maybe I missed a quote or a Church teaching that said something different. Here is what I have found. If you can find another source I would be happy to learn about it.

Children of God

The sacrament of Baptism not only gives us sanctifying grace: it also makes us adopted children of God and heirs of heaven.

We say “adopted” children because God the Father has only one begotten Son—Jesus Christ. He is God’s only Son through generation; the rest of us become God’s children by adoption.

As children of God, we receive our inheritance at the very moment of our adoption, at the very moment of Baptism. Our inheritance is eternal union with God, and we have that inheritance now, once we are baptized.

Nobody can take this inheritance away. Not even God, who has bound Himself by irrevocable promise never to take back what He has given. We ourselves can renounce our rights—as we will do if we commit mortal sin—but no one else can deprive us of our heritage.

beginningcatholic.com/baptism.html

I also thought you needed to believe in Jesus Christ.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- **John 1:12
**

I believe that there have been times that Catholics have said that one only becomes a child of God through baptism, but my understanding is that is not accurate. God is the Father to all, not only to Catholics or to Christians. If that is not what the Church teaches, I am open to hearing where and how that is wrong, but it is what I have been taught and what I understand. I know that the Pope has said that we are all children of God, and I trust he is not departing from the Faith in saying that. For myself, I certainly believe we are all God’s children.

 

[JosieN]

You are correct. Only those who are baptized have received the spirit of adoption, and are thus children of God. We are “all” (i.e., all people, baptized believers or not) children of God only in the sense that we are all His creation made in His image and likeness; we are His creatures, and so there is a sense in which it can be said that we are all children of God, but this can cause confusion. In the strict and proper sense, the children of God are only those who believe and are baptized.

I think you are right. We were all created by God and made in His image and likeness. When we are baptized we receive the spirit of adoption and become children of God.

1279 The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3O.HTM

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I thought we become children of God after we are baptised. So I was surprised to see that we are all children of God because we are all not baptized. Then I thought maybe I missed a quote or a Church teaching that said something different. Here is what I have found. If you can find another source I would be happy to learn about it.

We are all children of God. You my hear it from the very mouth of the Vicar of Christ himself:

thepopevideo.org/en/video/interreligious-dialogue.html

 

[JosieN]

We are all children of God. You my hear it from the very mouth of the Vicar of Christ himself:

thepopevideo.org/en/video/interreligious-dialogue.html

I have seen that video before and it confuses me. It was not what I was taught to believe, and that is why it confuses me. I do not remember Pope John Paul II or any other pope saying having confidence in Buddha or believing in love and Allah can make anyone a child of God. Do they get into heaven also? If so then why did Jesus the Son of God come into the world and die on a cross for our sins? Sin is not even mentioned. If everyone’s faith is different, what we believe are sins will be different. Are they free to live a sinful life and still be children of God as long as they believe in love? Everyone I know believes in love, even atheists, so I suppose they get to be children of God and enter heaven without ever having said a prayer or going to church or being baptized? What is the purpose of Christianity and believing in Jesus Christ, if all that matters is love? The baby Jesus confuses me also, why did they not have a crucifix instead?

 

[TMC]

I have seen that video before and it confuses me. It was not what I was taught to believe, and that is why it confuses me. I do not remember Pope John Paul II or any other pope saying having confidence in Buddha or believing in love and Allah can make anyone a child of God. Do they get into heaven also? If so then why did Jesus the Son of God come into the world and die on a cross for our sins? Sin is not even mentioned. If everyone’s faith is different, what we believe are sins will be different. Are they free to live a sinful life and still be children of God as long as they believe in love? Everyone I know believes in love, even atheists, so I suppose they get to be children of God and enter heaven without ever having said a prayer or going to church or being baptized? What is the purpose of Christianity and believing in Jesus Christ, if all that matters is love? The baby Jesus confuses me also, why did they not have a crucifix instead?

This has been the teaching of the Church at least since I was catechized, and I am a cradle Catholic and not young.

One of the things I sense in your post, although correct me if I am wrong, is the sense that the main reason to be Catholic is to get into heaven, so why be Catholic if heaven is available to others? That is not how I see religion. I think that the point of being Catholic, or any faith, is because one believes that faith has the Truth, and because one wants to live a good and proper life. If I were to learn tomorrow that everyone gets into heaven, no matter what they do in this life, I don’t think that would change my behavior or my faith. Being a Christian is not an investment that I hope will pay off in the next life. Being a Christian is what I think is the best way to live this life. I will let the next life take care of itself.

 

[Padres1969]

I thought we become children of God after we are baptised. So I was surprised to see that we are all children of God because we are all not baptized. Then I thought maybe I missed a quote or a Church teaching that said something different. Here is what I have found. If you can find another source I would be happy to learn about it.

Children of God

The sacrament of Baptism not only gives us sanctifying grace: it also makes us adopted children of God and heirs of heaven.

We say “adopted” children because God the Father has only one begotten Son—Jesus Christ. He is God’s only Son through generation; the rest of us become God’s children by adoption.

As children of God, we receive our inheritance at the very moment of our adoption, at the very moment of Baptism. Our inheritance is eternal union with God, and we have that inheritance now, once we are baptized.

Nobody can take this inheritance away. Not even God, who has bound Himself by irrevocable promise never to take back what He has given. We ourselves can renounce our rights—as we will do if we commit mortal sin—but no one else can deprive us of our heritage.

beginningcatholic.com/baptism.html

I also thought you needed to believe in Jesus Christ.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- **John 1:12
**

Well Bishop McElroy was making his statement in a church. Maybe he was presuming those in attendance were baptized believers in Christ?

 

[lax16]

The way I’ve seen people interact with gay Catholics seems like a way designed to further self loathing and hatred. When people have been convinced that they are incapable of being loved or loving someone else we have seriously failed.

How would a Catholic know if another Catholic is gay?

 

[Seamus_L]

I don’t know how homosexuals are seeing all this hostility coming from Catholics, because I can’t remember the last time I even heard the subject addressed from the pulpit. For every person who is allegedly obsessed with homosexuality, I see many more who never want the topic even discussed. In addition, every survey I see regarding same sex marriage, would indicate that Catholic churches, at least in America, tend to be pretty Gay friendly environments.

 

[JosieN]

This has been the teaching of the Church at least since I was catechized, and I am a cradle Catholic and not young.

One of the things I sense in your post, although correct me if I am wrong, is the sense that the main reason to be Catholic is to get into heaven, so why be Catholic if heaven is available to others? That is not how I see religion. I think that the point of being Catholic, or any faith, is because one believes that faith has the Truth, and because one wants to live a good and proper life. If I were to learn tomorrow that everyone gets into heaven, no matter what they do in this life, I don’t think that would change my behavior or my faith. Being a Christian is not an investment that I hope will pay off in the next life. Being a Christian is what I think is the best way to live this life. I will let the next life take care of itself.

The teaching has always been that one must be baptized. Even Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, so it must be important. According the the Catholic Catechism it includes forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins, and birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father.

“1279 The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ.”

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3O.HTM

I cannot find any Christian Catholic source that says we can sin freely and not repent and go to heaven and still be children of God, can you? Every source I find says the opposite.

“The concern of the flesh is death, but the concern of the spirit is life and peace. For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” **Romans 8:6-9
**

"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. "** Romans 8:13**

To me that means one’s soul cannot enter heaven if the soul becomes dead with the sins of the flesh. If that is not the case why do we believe in sin?