San Francisco Approves Gun, Military Recruiting Ban

[vern_humphrey]

VERY frustrating!!
It’s so easy for people to lump everyone into a particular catagory and slap a label on them.
Just because I live here (thanks to DH’s job) does NOT mean that I ride with the tide and go with the flow .
Further, there are many Mass attending, conservative Christians here who are just out-shouted. There’s not much one can do about it except live the most Christian life we can - sort of like Lot living in Sodom.
That’s like saying every Iranian is a terrorist because they live in Iran.

"After the fight at Otterburn, before the ravens came
The witchwife rode across the fern and called dead Percy’s name
"Stand up, stand up Northumberland, stand up and tell me true
If ever ye dealt in blade and brand, how went the fray with you?"

“Hiter and yon,” The Percy said, "As every fight must go
Some they fought and some they fled. And some struck ne’er a blow."

Strike a blow every day of your life. When you go to bed each night ask yourself, “What did I do today to make things better?”

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

There are now 38 states with “shall issue” laws. Anyone who takes the course and passes the background check can get a license to carry concealed. There are several states that allow open carry with no license. And two states that allow concealed carry without a license.

Did I mention that violent crime has gone down in all those states?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

No doubt in the boonies of those states. I admire all efforts to get handguns off the streets, but see no reason to forbid ownership on the private premises of one’s own home or business. I did not like the San Francisco ordinance and would have voted against it, even as a liberal.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

I can see it now, the President calls the Mayor of San Francisco, “I understand y’all had an earthquake. I’d like to help, but the Army’s too short of manpower – seems there’s some cities where we aren’t allowded to recruit. So we conserve manpower by helping only those cities whose citizens actually serve. Y’all have a nice day now.”

I am dead certain that there are men from San Francisco serving in every branch of the services, so that possibility won’t come up. Not to worry.

BTW, why should using the Guard or the Army for humanitarian relief purposes depend on recruitment from the towns in need of aid? I’m certain that all the bitty little towns helped in the aftermath of Katrina and Rita didn’t all have residents in the Services.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

No doubt in the boonies of those states.

In all of those states, in the boonies and in the cities. You may recall we had this debate before and I showed Richard Olsen the figures for Arkansas – we saw a dramatic drop in violent crime after enacting a “shall issue” law.
Arba Sicula:

I admire all efforts to get handguns off the streets,

The fallacy here is that we are in effect saying, “He might be a murderer or rapist, but he wouldn’t break the law and carry a gun, now would he?”

Yes, he would.

“Efforts to get handguns off the streets” are better known as “victim disarmament laws.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

I am dead certain that there are men from San Francisco serving in every branch of the services, so that possibility won’t come up. Not to worry.

In the same percentage as the rest of the country? And will they keep serving at such a rate if we ban recruiters?

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

In the same percentage as the rest of the country?

I don’t think that this is a factor. Even now, different parts of the country have different percentages in the Services. The South, for example, usually has a greater percentage in the Army than other sections.

And will they keep serving at such a rate if we ban recruiters?

They’re recruiters, not dragoons. If you want to enlist,you can take the bus two miles over the bridge to Oakland and sign up there.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

In all of those states, in the boonies and in the cities. You may recall we had this debate before and I showed Richard Olsen the figures for Arkansas – we saw a dramatic drop in violent crime after enacting a “shall issue” law.

Good for Arkansas. An armed Brooklyn would become a “killing field.” You guys in the country have an entirely different mentality than the people here “on the mean streets.” It’s not coincidental that a New York State gun permit isn’t valid in New York City. The cops here aren’t complete fools.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

I don’t think that this is a factor. Even now, different parts of the country have different percentages in the Services. The South, for example, usually has a greater percentage in the Army than other sections.

So we should get most of the help when disaster strikes.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
Arba Sicula:

They’re recruiters, not dragoons. If you want to enlist,you can take the bus two miles over the bridge to Oakland and sign up there.

Dragoons are mounted infantry. We have two regiments, First and Second Cavalry, descended from the original US Dragoons. But what’s this got to do with recruiting?

Kids need contact with the recruiters. They should be aware of the benefits and other matters affecting service.

Would you bar college recruiters from high schools?

Then why ban the military?

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

So we should get most of the help when disaster strikes.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

And that’s exactly what happened in the last few months.

Dragoons are mounted infantry. We have two regiments, First and Second Cavalry, descended from the original US Dragoons. But what’s this got to do with recruiting?

In Europe in the 18th Century, Dragoons were used to “recruit” for the regiments when enlistments were too low for a campaign. My allusion to Dragoons was in that role.

I smile at the notion of having a couple regiments of “cavalry” that don’t use horses - except at Arlington National Cemetery.

Kids need contact with the recruiters. They should be aware of the benefits and other matters affecting service.

Again, those kids can take the bus across to Oakland.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

Good for Arkansas. An armed Brooklyn would become a “killing field.”

And you know that, how?

In every one of those 38 states, the same argument was made. “If we issue permits like that, there will be shootouts over parking spaces!!”

And of course, it never happened. The Chief of Police of Miami, when the law was passed ominously stated, “We’re going to keep records of all the people killed because of this law.”

A year later he was asked how many people had been unlawfully killed by permit holders and he angrily said, “None!” – as if they were cheating by not fulfilling his prediction.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
Arba Sicula:

You guys in the country have an entirely different mentality than the people here “on the mean streets.”

You mean we’re more honest, humane, mature, and non-violent?

Hush, sir! You make me blush!
Arba Sicula:

It’s not coincidental that a New York State gun permit isn’t valid in New York City. The cops here aren’t complete fools.

So how smart is it to disarm the good guys and leave the streets to the armed criminals?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

And that’s exactly what happened in the last few months.

So my advice to San Francisco is, “Don’t have any more earthquakes.”
Arba Sicula:

In Europe in the 18th Century, Dragoons were used to “recruit” for the regiments when enlistments were too low for a campaign. My allusion to Dragoons was in that role.

Did you notice that this is America, not Europe? And it’s the 21st Century?
Arba Sicula:

I smile at the notion of having a couple regiments of “cavalry” that don’t use horses - except at Arlington National Cemetery.

The British still have Sherwood Forresters, too.

US Cavalry regiments are unique organizations – primarily distinguished by being organic combined arms units.
Arba Sicula:

Again, those kids can take the bus across to Oakland.

Right. And they can take the bus to Oakland to meet college recruiters, too?

Military service is an opportunity for a lot of kids. And a lot of kids benefit from the discipline and structure of military life. Why do you have this prejudice against military recruiters?

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

And you know that, how?

By living here for my entire life except when I was in the Air Force.

In every one of those 38 states, the same argument was made. “If we issue permits like that, there will be shootouts over parking spaces!!”

And of course, it never happened. The Chief of Police of Miami, when the law was passed ominously stated, “We’re going to keep records of all the people killed because of this law.”

A year later he was asked how many people had been unlawfully killed by permit holders and he angrily said, “None!” – as if they were cheating by not fulfilling his prediction.

Oh, Wow. You’re comparing a town with some 360,000 people with a metropolis of well over 7 million people and growing.

You mean we’re more honest, humane, mature, and non-violent?

Hush, sir! You make me blush!

I meant that you guys are less exposed to violence than we are, but if your other descriptions are also valid, then that’s all to the good. I don’t know much about the South. The only time I’ve been South was when I was in Basic Training in San Antonio, Texas.

So how smart is it to disarm the good guys and leave the streets to the armed criminals?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

We have some 28,000 cops in New York, more than in any other city. And, everyone praised Giuliani years ago when he got the crime rate down through tough policing. Even a conservative like he didn’t call for an armed citizenry.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

By living here for my entire life except when I was in the Air Force.

And you spent all that time doing surveys of your fellow New Yorkers? So you KNOW that your friends and neighbors who have never, ever committed a crime, would become crazed killers if you allowed them to defend themselves from criminals?

Or do you just imagine this to be the case?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
Arba Sicula:

Oh, Wow. You’re comparing a town with some 360,000 people with a metropolis of well over 7 million people and growing.

As opposed to you using mere imagination to predict how New Yorkers would behave?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
Arba Sicula:

I meant that you guys are less exposed to violence than we are, but if your other descriptions are also valid, then that’s all to the good.

One of the reasons we’re less exposed is that we have the capability of defending ourselves. Violent crime has dropped dramatically since we got that capability.
Arba Sicula:

We have some 28,000 cops in New York, more than in any other city. And, everyone praised Giuliani years ago when he got the crime rate down through tough policing. Even a conservative like he didn’t call for an armed citizenry.

Most of us wouldn’t call Guiliani a “conservative.”

He spent huge sums to get a smaller drop in the violent crime rate than we experienced – and it didn’t cost us one cent of taxpayer money.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

And you spent all that time doing surveys of your fellow New Yorkers?

I don’t need surveys. I understand the folks here. I’ll bet you have a good sense of how Arkansans behave and react to things based on your life there, without having to pass out survey forms in Mountain Home (View?) or Little Rock.

One of the reasons we’re less exposed is that we have the capability of defending ourselves. Violent crime has dropped dramatically since we got that capability.

And in your rural state and county, I don’t doubt for a moment that you are right.

Most of us wouldn’t call Guiliani a “conservative.”

Most New Yorkers wouldn’t call him anything but a strong conservative.

He spent huge sums to get a smaller drop in the violent crime rate than we experienced – and it didn’t cost us one cent of taxpayer money.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Sure, in your town, no doubt.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

I don’t need surveys. I understand the folks here. I’ll bet you have a good sense of how Arkansans behave and react to things based on your life there, without having to pass out survey forms in Mountain Home (View?) or Little Rock.

Oddly enough, when we want to choose people for office, they don’t come and ask me who everyone likes – they have an election.

And when they want to sample public opinion, they do it the old-fashioned way.
Arba Sicula:

And in your rural state and county, I don’t doubt for a moment that you are right.-/quote]

And in 37 other states, some of which have cities larger than Miami or Little Rock.
Arba Sicula:

Most New Yorkers wouldn’t call him anything but a strong conservative.

They obviously don’t know what a conservative is, then.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
Arba Sicula:

Sure, in your town, no doubt.

And in 37 other states and in the towns in those states.

What’s wrong with New Yorkers that you don’t trust them?

 

[koda]

vern humphrey:

The fallacy here is that we are in effect saying, “He might be a murderer or rapist, but he wouldn’t break the law and carry a gun, now would he?”

Yes, he would.

“Efforts to get handguns off the streets” are better known as “victim disarmament laws.”

I have to agree with Vern on this one (proof that pigeonholing doesn’t work I think). I’ve never understood this idea. Criminals will most certainly have guns since breaking the law to get them won’t be a problem for them. The rest of us who obey the law will be unarmed and the criminals will know it. How will that help?

Also, I’m from the South (Nashville, TN and environs). I know a lot of folks there who always carry a gun - permit or not. They were brought up around guns and know how to use them and generally operate on the “don’t point it at someone unless you plan to shoot, don’t shoot unless you plan to kill” which, hopefully, keeps them from fooling around with a deadly weapon. In other words, they realize the seriousness of using a gun and don’t take it lightly. I realize, however, that not everyone falls into that category.

 

[Arba_Sicula]

vern humphrey:

Oddly enough, when we want to choose people for office, they don’t come and ask me who everyone likes – they have an election.

And when they want to sample public opinion, they do it the old-fashioned way.

Sure. But, I was speaking of your own sense of your fellow Arkansans or Mountain Viewites.

And in 37 other states, some of which have cities larger than Miami or Little Rock.

Why not? BTW, how much has crime dropped in your capital city thanks to everyone going around strapped?

They obviously don’t know what a conservative is, then.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Remember that Kerry got over 75% of the vote in NYC. Senator Clinton is a d***ed conservative to a lot of people here.

What’s wrong with New Yorkers that you don’t trust them?

There’s a certain mentality here. Example: two weeks ago, a neighbor of mine’s daughter drove his car and got into a big one-car accident. She was drunk and was lucky no one got hurt. The cops weren’t called. The bad thing was that she wasn’t covered in any way by her Dad’s insurance.

So the car was a total loss to him? Nah! He did some deal with a repairman and an adjuster and State Farm wound up having to pay. Everyone, except the insurance company, came out ahead, and we neighbors admired that he was able to fall into a pile of **** and come out smelling like a rose. A typical New York reaction.

I’d be afraid if some of the neighborhood punks, currently gun-free, would be carrying guns, even “legally.”

Now, it doesn’t bother me if everyone in your state is armed, or even everyone in some other states goes around wearing a holster and a .44. Go with God, and all.

But I’ll do what I can to oppose loosening our gun laws here.

 

[caroljm36]

VERY frustrating!!
It’s so easy for people to lump everyone into a particular catagory and slap a label on them.
Just because I live here (thanks to DH’s job) does NOT mean that I ride with the tide and go with the flow .
Further, there are many Mass attending, conservative Christians here who are just out-shouted. There’s not much one can do about it except live the most Christian life we can - sort of like Lot living in Sodom.
That’s like saying every Iranian is a terrorist because they live in Iran.

chill out - the original statement was just rhetorical hyperbole to point out the dependency of ALL cities on military aid during disasters. What is so hard to understand about that? Why make a federal case out of it? sheesh

 

[vern_humphrey]

Arba Sicula:

Sure. But, I was speaking of your own sense of your fellow Arkansans or Mountain Viewites.

Since no one accepts me as the final arbiter of what my neighbors think or would do under various circumstances, it would be hubristic of me to set myself up as the arbiter of my neighbors.
Arba Sicula:

Why not? BTW, how much has crime dropped in your capital city thanks to everyone going around strapped?

What is “strapped?”

I posted the figures for Richard Olsen. These are the relevant figures (latest available is 2000)

Year Population Index Violent

1995 2,484,000 116,521 13,741

1996 2,510,000 117,951 13,161

1997 2,523,000 119,052 13,293

1998 2,538,000 108,713 12,442

1999 2,551,373 103,131 10,848

2000 2,673,400 110,019 11,904

Arba Sicula:

Remember that Kerry got over 75% of the vote in NYC. Senator Clinton is a d***ed conservative to a lot of people here.

But not a patch on conservative’s butt in the rest of the country.
Arba Sicula:

There’s a certain mentality here. Example: two weeks ago, a neighbor of mine’s daughter drove his car and got into a big one-car accident. She was drunk and was lucky no one got hurt. The cops weren’t called. The bad thing was that she wasn’t covered in any way by her Dad’s insurance.

So the car was a total loss to him? Nah! He did some deal with a repairman and an adjuster and State Farm wound up having to pay. Everyone, except the insurance company, came out ahead, and we neighbors admired that he was able to fall into a pile of **** and come out smelling like a rose. A typical New York reaction.

Everybody except all those other people insured by State Farm who have higher premiums as a result of insurance fraud like this.
Arba Sicula:

I’d be afraid if some of the neighborhood punks, currently gun-free, would be carrying guns, even “legally.”

Who are these “neighborhood punks?” Do they have clean records? If not, they are prohibited from owning, let alone carrying a gun.
Arba Sicula:

Now, it doesn’t bother me if everyone in your state is armed, or even everyone in some other states goes around wearing a holster and a .44. Go with God, and all.

But I’ll do what I can to oppose loosening our gun laws here.

Let me ask you this – if you could carry a gun, what crimes would you commit? Would haveing the right to carry a gun automatically make you a criminal?

(Warning: this is a trap.)http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by caroljm36
chill out - the original statement was just rhetorical hyperbole to point out the dependency of ALL cities on military aid during disasters. What is so hard to understand about that? Why make a federal case out of it? sheesh

You read it your way, I’ll read it my way, especially since it was my area of the country that was determined to be unfit for disaster assistance due to a gun and military recruiter ban.
Kinda like how us Catholics get upset when we perceive predjudice against us for inane reason. (we’re all Mary worshipers, etc. ad nauseum)
We SF’ers get upset when we are all labeled “liberal”, when we all are not.