San Francisco Archbishop George H. Niederauer addresses recent comments made by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi

[gakroeger]

Well, lots of things are mortal sins, but we don’t make them all illegal. This is more complicated than just about whether abortion is a mortal sin. It’s about whether its a mortal sin to avoid making abortion illegal.

Murder is already illegal. The very weak argument being made by the left is whether the fetus is human and has a right to life. And since the fetus is most definitely nothing but human and is a creation of God not man (just as God is the creator of all things) man does not have the right to kill it. Your argument that it is more complicated then that is the very argument the left makes about everything. They take black and white, wrong and right issues and muddy them up with gray for their convenience in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

Is it a mortal sin to assist in someone’s murder?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

“It’s about whether its a mortal sin to avoid making abortion illegal.” Sorry the brain isn’t computing right now. Can you state this another way? Thanks.

---

I’m saying there are two questions here:

1. is abortion a mortal sin

(every catholic probably agrees the answer is yes)

1. should abortion be illegal

Which things do catholics believe should be illegal? We don’t just automatically make all mortal (or venial) sins illegal. For example, missing mass on Sunday is a mortal sin, but I don’t think anyone here would advocate a law that forces catholics to attend mass on Sundays.

Masturbation is a mortal sin, but should it be illegal? In public, of course, but in provate?

Should having impure thoughts be illegal? that’s a mortal sin.

Should insulting the pope be against the law? I think so, but how many here would agree? That’s a mortal sin.

Those examples are ridiculous of course. Not every mortal sin has to be against the law. Abortion should be against the law, we believe, not just because it’s a mortal sin, but because the government has a duty to protect the human person.

But then someone like Pelosi is thinking… what if the people being governed aren’t sure if the fetus is a human person? What if the people I represent don’t want that law? Am I here to make catholic moral rules into laws, or am I here to represent the people who voted for me?

See, Pelosi might agree that abortion is a mortal sin. Her confusion is on those other questions. It’s not as clear-cut to everyone as it is to us conservatives. That’s why I’m saying its a complex issue that requires the bishop to sit down and discuss these things with her.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

It may be my brain malfunctioning, but please list for me the mortal sins that are not illegal? Thank you.

Missing mass on Sunday, swearing, masturbation, entertaining impure thoughts, detraction.

Many people here would argue that we have the RIGHT to commit the sin of detraction (because of freedom of speech), and would fight against it being made illegal.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I apologize in advance by being harsh, but when it comes to abortion, to me, there are no ifs, ands ,nor buts about it. To ignore a major teaching of the church (the Church Magesterium has said abortion is wrong and the belief it is not morally wrong can be the cause of denial of reception of the Sacraments.) If anyone can read, or hear, I think Pelosi should be able to do that unless she has a companion with her twenty four hours a day interpreting English for her, oh that’s right, she speaks Spanish. HOW CAN ONE NOT KNOW KILLING AN INNOCENT CHILD IS A MORTAL SIN. Politics be d-----d. Which is the higher law?

But the point is, Pelosi didn’t have an abortion (that we know of).

Her sin is voting against laws that would ban abortion. That’s not the exact same thing as having an abortion herself. Her sin is failing to use her position to stop others from having abortion.

 

[maggiemay2u]

But the point is, Pelosi didn’t have an abortion (that we know of).

Her sin is voting against laws that would ban abortion. That’s not the exact same thing as having an abortion herself. Her sin is failing to use her position to stop others from having abortion.

Madame Speaker’s staff came up with the position she continues to spew. It was a loser going in, but keep in mind her staffers are ultra liberal nutballs (having interacted with them on more than one occasion, I feel comfortable in my characterization)

She was one of the original signers on the document defying the Church saying that although she understood the Church view, she would follow her conscience (not to mention mention her constituents) in voting pro abortion. I fault both His Grace and His Grace’s predecessor for not reigning her in sooner.

Madame Speaker has been responsible for the horrific deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent children.

 

[estesbob]

But the point is, Pelosi didn’t have an abortion (that we know of).

Her sin is voting against laws that would ban abortion. That’s not the exact same thing as having an abortion herself. Her sin is failing to use her position to stop others from having abortion.

Its not a matter of her voting against laws that would ban abortion it is a matter of her actively pushing laws that would allow taxpayer-funded abortions up until the moment the child fully exits the womb. Whenever we hear a politician say they personally oppose abortion but don’t want to push their views on others one has to wonder why is they are so adamant on pushing the pro abortion view on others

 

[estesbob]

She was one of the original signers on the document defying the Church saying that although she understood the Church view, she would follow her conscience (not to mention mention her constituents) in voting pro abortion. I fault both His Grace and His Grace’s predecessor for not reigning her in sooner.

Madame Speaker has been responsible for the horrific deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent children.

Her comments have sparked a long overdue public discussion of what exactly the churches teachings on life are. I would love for her to play the conscience card as then we would have a long overdue public discussion of what the church’s teaching on conscience is. You see many even in CAF that tell you that for Catholics conscience trumps all.

 

[gakroeger]

Her comments have sparked a long overdue public discussion of what exactly the churches teachings on life are. I would love for her to play the conscience card as then we would have a long overdue public discussion of what the church’s teaching on conscience is. You see many even in CAF that tell you that for Catholics conscience trumps all.

Yes, I totally agree. The problem with Pelosi and other cafeteria Catholics in claiming that conscience trumps all; is that they totally ignore the fact that they are responsible for forming a “correct” conscience. And forming a correct conscience requires the individual study Church as well as other views and “honestly” seek and live by the truth. The fact that Pelosi misquotes Church teaching makes it clear that she has not done this. She instead selectively quotes and ignores bits and pieces in a dishonest attempt to mislead.

All in the name of getting votes and obtaining and retaining power.

 

[mary_bobo]

Her comments have sparked a long overdue public discussion of what exactly the churches teachings on life are. I would love for her to play the conscience card as then we would have a long overdue public discussion of what the church’s teaching on conscience is. You see many even in CAF that tell you that for Catholics conscience trumps all.

Yes, indeed. That would be eye-opening.

 

[Sabda]

Her comments have sparked a long overdue public discussion of what exactly the churches teachings on life are. I would love for her to play the conscience card as then we would have a long overdue public discussion of what the church’s teaching on conscience is. You see many even in CAF that tell you that for Catholics conscience trumps all.

Yep, I have had Catholics tell me that the Church encourages us to form our consciences so that is simply what they have done. I then go to that exact teaching in the CCC and point out that it actually says that one’s conscience is to be formed with in the boundaries of the teachings of the Church. NOT outside of it. Trying to use the conscience card back fires on them every time.

 

[elts1956]

But the point is, Pelosi didn’t have an abortion (that we know of).

Her sin is voting against laws that would ban abortion. That’s not the exact same thing as having an abortion herself. Her sin is failing to use her position to stop others from having abortion.

Her comments have sparked a long overdue public discussion of what exactly the churches teachings on life are. I would love for her to play the conscience card as then we would have a long overdue public discussion of what the church’s teaching on conscience is. You see many even in CAF that tell you that for Catholics conscience trumps all.

The conscience “card” was played for her by San Francisco Archbishop George H. Niederauer on Aug. 5, 2008. Read his statement very carefully. Most people stop at his words, “she was mistaken, or wrong” and don’t read any further thinking he has REALLY castegated her.

 

[elts1956]

But the point is, Pelosi didn’t have an abortion (that we know of).

Her sin is voting against laws that would ban abortion. That’s not the exact same thing as having an abortion herself. Her sin is failing to use her position to stop others from having abortion.

I think “failing to use her position to stop others from having abortions” means support. If I am not mistaken, supporting abortion is also a mortal sin.

 

[maggiemay2u]

The following is Madame Speaker’s voting record on the abortion issue. In several of the bills, one may note, she voted to: facilitate the funding of abortion; allow minors to be taken across state lines to facilitate an abortion; refuse to fund any medical program that didn’t offer abortion; and, refuse to ban partial birth abortion.

Bill Title Vote Outcome
12/06/2006 Abortion Pain Bill
HR 6099 N Bill Failed - House
(250 - 162)
05/25/2005 Overseas Military Facilities Abortion Amendment
HR 1815 Y Amendment Rejected - Senate
(194 - 233)
04/27/2005 Child Interstate Abortion Notification Act
HR 748 N Bill Passed - Senate
(270 - 157)
10/02/2003 Prohibit Partial-Birth Abortion bill
S 3 N Conference Report Adopted - House
(281 - 142)
06/04/2003 Prohibit Partial-Birth Abortion bill
HR 760 N Bill Passed - House
(282 - 139)
07/20/2000 Abortion Funding Amendment
HR 4871 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(184 - 230)
07/13/2000 Family Planning Assistance Funding amendment
HR 4811 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(206 - 221)
06/22/2000 Prison Abortion Funding Amendment
HR 4690 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(156 - 254)
05/18/2000 Oversea Military Abortions Amendment
HR 4205 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(195 - 221)
04/05/2000 Partial Birth Abortion Act
HR 3660 N Bill passed - House
(287 - 141)
07/29/1999 Abortion Funding Amendment
HR 2606 Y Amendment Adopted - House
(221 - 208)
06/30/1999 Child Custody Protection Act
HR 1218 N Bill Passed - House
(270 - 159)
06/09/1999 Overseas Military Abortion Amendment
HR 1401 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(203 - 225)
06/08/1999 Prohibition of Chemically Induced Abortion Amendment
HR 1906 N Amendment Adopted - House
(217 - 214)
10/08/1998 Contraceptive Amendment
HR 4274 N Amendment Adopted - House
(224 - 200)
08/06/1998 Abortion Funding Amendment
HR 4380 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(180 - 243)
07/23/1998 Partial-Birth Abortion bill
HR 1122 N Veto Override Passed - House
(296 - 132)
07/15/1998 Child Custody Protection Act
HR 3682 N Bill Passed - House
(276 - 150)
06/24/1998 Chemical Inducement of Abortion Amendment
HR 4101 N Amendment Adopted - House
(223 - 202)
05/20/1998 Abortion Private Funding Restoration Amendment
HR 3616 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(190 - 232)
10/08/1997 Partial-Birth Abortion bill
HR 1122 N Bill Passed - House
(296 - 132)
09/04/1997 International Family Planning amendment
HR 2159 N Amendment Adopted - House
(234 - 191)
03/20/1997 Partial-Birth Abortion bill
HR 1122 N Bill Passed - House
(295 - 136)
02/13/1997 Population Planning bill
HR 581 N Bill Passed - House
(231 - 194)
09/19/1996 Partial-Birth Abortion Ban
HR 1833 N Veto Override Passed - House
(285 - 137)
07/22/1996 Non-Federally Funded Abortions Amendment
HR 3845 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(176 - 223)
03/07/1996 Medicaid Funded Abortions Amendment
HR 3019 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(198 - 222)
11/01/1995 Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 1995
HR 1833 N Bill Passed - House
(288 - 139)
09/07/1995 Overseas Military Abortions
HR 2126 N Amendment Adopted - House
(226 - 191)
06/15/1995 Overseas Military Abortion Amendment
HR 1530 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(196 - 230)
05/24/1995 Foreign Abortion Ban Amendment
HR 1561 N Amendment Adopted - House
(240 - 181)

Madame Speaker has hardly been a passive abortion advocate. She demonstrates a hostility towards any bill that is crafted to protect parental rights and the lives of viable infants.

One can draw one’s own conclusion as if her hostility towards life rises to the level of:
being of grave matter
committed with full knowledge
committed with deliberate consent

 

[elts1956]

The following is Madame Speaker’s voting record on the abortion issue. In several of the bills, one may note, she voted to: facilitate the funding of abortion; allow minors to be taken across state lines to facilitate an abortion; refuse to fund any medical program that didn’t offer abortion; and, refuse to ban partial birth abortion.

Bill Title Vote Outcome
12/06/2006 Abortion Pain Bill
HR 6099 N Bill Failed - House
(250 - 162)
05/25/2005 Overseas Military Facilities Abortion Amendment
HR 1815 Y Amendment Rejected - Senate
(194 - 233)
04/27/2005 Child Interstate Abortion Notification Act
HR 748 N Bill Passed - Senate
(270 - 157)
10/02/2003 Prohibit Partial-Birth Abortion bill
S 3 N Conference Report Adopted - House
(281 - 142)
06/04/2003 Prohibit Partial-Birth Abortion bill
HR 760 N Bill Passed - House
(282 - 139)
07/20/2000 Abortion Funding Amendment
HR 4871 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(184 - 230)
07/13/2000 Family Planning Assistance Funding amendment
HR 4811 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(206 - 221)
06/22/2000 Prison Abortion Funding Amendment
HR 4690 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(156 - 254)
05/18/2000 Oversea Military Abortions Amendment
HR 4205 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(195 - 221)
04/05/2000 Partial Birth Abortion Act
HR 3660 N Bill passed - House
(287 - 141)
07/29/1999 Abortion Funding Amendment
HR 2606 Y Amendment Adopted - House
(221 - 208)
06/30/1999 Child Custody Protection Act
HR 1218 N Bill Passed - House
(270 - 159)
06/09/1999 Overseas Military Abortion Amendment
HR 1401 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(203 - 225)
06/08/1999 Prohibition of Chemically Induced Abortion Amendment
HR 1906 N Amendment Adopted - House
(217 - 214)
10/08/1998 Contraceptive Amendment
HR 4274 N Amendment Adopted - House
(224 - 200)
08/06/1998 Abortion Funding Amendment
HR 4380 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(180 - 243)
07/23/1998 Partial-Birth Abortion bill
HR 1122 N Veto Override Passed - House
(296 - 132)
07/15/1998 Child Custody Protection Act
HR 3682 N Bill Passed - House
(276 - 150)
06/24/1998 Chemical Inducement of Abortion Amendment
HR 4101 N Amendment Adopted - House
(223 - 202)
05/20/1998 Abortion Private Funding Restoration Amendment
HR 3616 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(190 - 232)
10/08/1997 Partial-Birth Abortion bill
HR 1122 N Bill Passed - House
(296 - 132)
09/04/1997 International Family Planning amendment
HR 2159 N Amendment Adopted - House
(234 - 191)
03/20/1997 Partial-Birth Abortion bill
HR 1122 N Bill Passed - House
(295 - 136)
02/13/1997 Population Planning bill
HR 581 N Bill Passed - House
(231 - 194)
09/19/1996 Partial-Birth Abortion Ban
HR 1833 N Veto Override Passed - House
(285 - 137)
07/22/1996 Non-Federally Funded Abortions Amendment
HR 3845 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(176 - 223)
03/07/1996 Medicaid Funded Abortions Amendment
HR 3019 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(198 - 222)
11/01/1995 Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 1995
HR 1833 N Bill Passed - House
(288 - 139)
09/07/1995 Overseas Military Abortions
HR 2126 N Amendment Adopted - House
(226 - 191)
06/15/1995 Overseas Military Abortion Amendment
HR 1530 Y Amendment Rejected - House
(196 - 230)
05/24/1995 Foreign Abortion Ban Amendment
HR 1561 N Amendment Adopted - House
(240 - 181)

Madame Speaker has hardly been a passive abortion advocate. She demonstrates a hostility towards any bill that is crafted to protect parental rights and the lives of viable infants.

One can draw one’s own conclusion as if her hostility towards life rises to the level of:
being of grave matter
committed with full knowledge
committed with deliberate consent

Hello Maggie, Many thanks for taking the time to get this info. to us regarding Pelosi. With this available, I wonder if anyone dares excuse her with a “lack of knowledge” of what is going on in the abortion mills and the grave errors in morals she has committed.

 

[maggiemay2u]

Hello Maggie, Many thanks for taking the time to get this info. to us regarding Pelosi. With this available, I wonder if anyone dares excuse her with a “lack of knowledge” of what is going on in the abortion mills and the grave errors in morals she has committed.

My pleasure, my friend
.:tiphat:

The information on voting records of all members of congress on hot button issues:

votesmart.org/index.htm

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I think “failing to use her position to stop others from having abortions” means support. If I am not mistaken, supporting abortion is also a mortal sin.

I think its similar but not exactly the same. For example, if I vote for a party which supports freedom of speech, does that mean that I’m guilty of supporting the sin of detraction? Since we all know that people use their freedom of speech to commit the sin of detraction.

I think it’s one thing to support a person committing a sin, by encouraging them, and quite another to say that we don’t think the force of law should be used to stop them from committing the sin.

But I think that trying to get funding for people to have abortions definitely becomes supporting abortion.

 

[estesbob]

I think its similar but not exactly the same. For example, if I vote for a party which supports freedom of speech, does that mean that I’m guilty of supporting the sin of detraction? Since we all know that people use their freedom of speech to commit the sin of detraction.

I think it’s one thing to support a person committing a sin, by encouraging them, and quite another to say that we don’t think the force of law should be used to stop them from committing the sin.

But I think that trying to get funding for people to have abortions definitely becomes supporting abortion.

Having looked at Speaker Pelosis voting record how could anyone
come to any other conclusion other than she wholeheartedly supports taxpayer funded abortions up unitl the moment the childs head fully exits the womb.?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Having looked at Speaker Pelosis voting record how could anyone
come to any other conclusion other than she wholeheartedly supports taxpayer funded abortions up unitl the moment the childs head fully exits the womb.?

I would agree with you there, but I still think the issue is complicated enough to justify the Bishop having a chat with Pelosi before excommunicating her. That’s all I’m trying to say.

 

[elgar]

I would agree with you there, but I still think the issue is complicated enough to justify the Bishop having a chat with Pelosi before excommunicating her. That’s all I’m trying to say.

I still don’t see an “excommunication” on the horizon–especially from Niederhauer. Can anyone here name any famous excommunications of late? I mean a fully launched one, not the kind where you excommunicate yourself by doing this or that.
I don’t think the church wants that kind of publicity.

 

[Fitz]

I still don’t see an “excommunication” on the horizon–especially from Niederhauer. Can anyone here name any famous excommunications of late? I mean a fully launched one, not the kind where you excommunicate yourself by doing this or that.
I don’t think the church wants that kind of publicity.

In my lifetime I have never heard of an escommunication. When I was a child in Catholic school there was talk of a movie star being escommunicated in Europe, but honestly I don’t know if it ever really happened in the way I understood it as a child. Perhaps there never was officially a public way to excommunicate.