Sanders Thread

[Crossbones]

I think we should follow the teachings of the Church and the direct guidance of members of the Magestrium.

. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI

For 35 years I’ve watched thousands of good Catholic laypeople, clergy and religious struggle to recover some form of legal protection for the unborn child. The abortion lobby has fought every compromise and every legal restriction on abortion, every step of the way. Apparently they believe in their convictions more than some of us Catholics believe in ours. And I think that’s an indictment of an entire generation of American Catholic leadership.The abortion conflict has never simply been about repealing Roe v. Wade. And the many pro-lifers I know live a much deeper kind of discipleship than ‘‘single issue’’ politics. But they do understand that the cornerstone of Catholic social teaching is protecting human life from conception to natural death. They do understand that every other human right depends on the right to life. They did not and do not and will not give up - and they won’t be lied to.

Archbishop Charles Chaput

In considering “the sum total of social conditions,” there is, however, a certain order of priority, which must be followed. Conditions upon which other conditions depend must receive our first consideration. The first consideration must be given to the protection of human life itself, without which it makes no sense to consider other social conditions. “The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 2273).

1. The safeguarding of human life is understandably foundational to all other precepts of the natural law. The Church’s teaching, from her very first years, has underlined the particular gravity of taking the life of another, made in the image and likeness of God, except in the case of self-defense, that is, the legitimate defense of self or others ( Pope John Paul II, Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, “On the Value and Inviolability of Human Life,” March 25, 1995, Nos. 52-55).

Cardinal Edmund Burke

Certainly policies on welfare, national security, the war in Iraq, Social Security or taxes, taken singly or in any combination, do not provide a proportionate reason to vote for a pro-abortion candidate.

Archbishop John Myers

Since abortion and euthanasia have been defined by the Church as the most serious sins prevalent in our society, what kind of reasons could possibly be considered proportionate enough to justify a Catholic voting for a candidate who is known to be pro-abortion? None of the reasons commonly suggested could even begin to be proportionate enough to justify a Catholic voting for such a candidate. Reasons such as the candidate’s position on war, or taxes, or the death penalty, or immigration, or a national health plan, or social security, or aids, or homosexuality, or marriage, or any similar burning societal issues of our time are simply lacking in proportionality.

Bishop Henry Gracida

I wonder if BIshop Gracida or Archbishop Chaput supported the USCCB document. I believe the vast majority of bishops did, but I know that it was not 100%.

 

[estesbob]

You also have countries like Germany, which spends more as a percentage of GDP than both the US and Canada, yet it is still economically prosperous.

And who depend on the US for their security.

 

[stinkcat_14]

And who depend on the US for their security.

Even with that, government spending takes up a larger percentage of GDP in Germany than it does in the US. Government spending is wasteful regardless of whether it is defense spending or whether it is domestic spending.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Sure. But I think that any promoters of Bernie (or Hillary or Donald for that matter) looking for support from those guides will be sorely disappointed.

If you mean the bishop’s Faithful Citizenship guide, oh no not at all. I’ve seen it argued quite well here as to what it says and they are not sorely disappointed at all.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Canada does well because it has the US as its protector, and spends little on national defense. It also has the US as a layer of protection from the invasion of millions of very poor, untrained people from Mexico and Central America. It also benefits spectacularly from open trade with the US.

All that said, and the Canadian healthcare system is crumbling. It has to ration care and deny services.

Haiti in no way represents a small government. It’s history is rife with totalitarian despots and its current political and legal environment precludes it from having economic freedom and economic success.

As if the private insurance system doesn’t ration care based on how much insurance one can afford in premiums and deductibles and before Obama came along, people were denied coverage all the time for pre-existing conditions.

 

[estesbob]

If you mean the bishop’s Faithful Citizenship guide, oh no not at all. I’ve seen it argued quite well here as to what it says and they are not sorely disappointed at all.

Actually those looking rationalize voting in support of will generally pull a line or two out FC, give us their personal interpretation of them and ignore the voluminous documentation provided them showing them FC does not say what they claim it does.

Archbishop Chaput calls this Mental Gymnastics worthy of an Olympic Gold Medal

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Social Security is already bankrupt, and WILL run out of money. It’s not a question of IF, but of WHEN.

So the question is turned back to you. How will you address the coming collapse? Please lay out your suggestions.

SS will end. The math simply won’t work. So lay out your solutions.

Social Security will change, but neither Republicans or Democrats will yank someone’s entire income from them, putting them on welfare rolls.

I don’t have a plan. I don’t have to have a plan. I’m not a Congressperson. But I know Congress - Republican or Democratic - won’t pull the rug out from under tens of thousands of seniors, many who fought in combat for this country.

The post office is still going strong. How many people use the post office? I haven’t even been inside one in years. I pay online. When I order something, I get it through FedEx or UPS. But just because the postal system is antiquated, I don’t think the government is simply going to abandon it and the postal workers.

I don’t think I’ve carried cash for ten years. At least not in the US. I pay with my debit or credit card. When I lived in Switzerland, I did carry a lot of cash at times. They use an antiquated system of paying all bills at the post office in cash.

 

[Crossbones]

Actually those looking rationalize voting in support of will generally pull a line or two out FC, give us their personal interpretation of them and ignore the voluminous documentation provided them showing them FC does not say what they claim it does.

Archbishop Chaput calls this Mental Gymnastics worthy of an Olympic Gold Medal

Actually, I find the Guide for Faithful Citizenship to be quite voluminous. Certainly a lot longer than one might expect if the bishop’s expectation is that the only issue that matters is abortion.

I don’t find directly quoting what it says to be a personal interpretation. On the other hand, it seems that those who take Pope Benedict’s quote and claim that it means that it means no Catholic can vote for a pro-abortion politician takes personal interpretation.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Actually, I find the Guide for Faithful Citizenship to be quite voluminous. Certainly a lot longer than one might expect if the bishop’s expectation is that the only issue that matters is abortion.

I don’t find directly quoting what it says to be a personal interpretation. On the other hand, it seems that those who take Pope Benedict’s quote and claim that it means that it means no Catholic can vote for a pro-abortion politician takes personal interpretation.

Exactly. And that’s what I find too. A much longer document than what would have been needed.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Actually those looking rationalize voting in support of will generally pull a line or two out FC, give us their personal interpretation of them and ignore the voluminous documentation provided them showing them FC does not say what they claim it does.

Archbishop Chaput calls this Mental Gymnastics worthy of an Olympic Gold Medal

I don’t think people try to rationalize their voting. They just vote for the person they like best, and if they’re ashamed of it, they lie.

I’m voting for Sanders or Hillary in the general, whichever is the nominee, and I have a totally clear conscience regarding my vote.

 

[J_Peterson]

Actually those looking rationalize voting in support of will generally pull a line or two out FC, give us their personal interpretation of them and ignore the voluminous documentation provided them showing them FC does not say what they claim it does.

Archbishop Chaput calls this Mental Gymnastics worthy of an Olympic Gold Medal

Why do you assume it’s a rationalization rather than a decision made after a lot of thought? You are assuming dishonesty without any evidence of dishonesty.

 

[estesbob]

Why do you assume it’s a rationalization rather than a decision made after a lot of thought? You are assuming dishonesty without any evidence of dishonesty.

I am assuming that those who vote in such a matter are poorly catechized. Whether this is deliberate or not is not for me to say.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I am assuming that those who vote in such a matter are poorly catechized. Whether this is deliberate or not is not for me to say.

I know I’m not poorly catechized since I have a Master’s in Theology, and am a PhD can. in Theology, and teach RC Theology, primarily Christology.

I think I understand “material cooperation with evil,” - remote, mediate, immediate, and formal - better than most. I’m at peace with my vote for Sanders or Clinton, and God will judge me some day, not anyone else. I have no fear of that judgment.

 

[zz912]

I don’t think people try to rationalize their voting. They just vote for the person they like best, and if they’re ashamed of it, they lie.

I’m voting for Sanders or Hillary in the general, whichever is the nominee, and I have a totally clear conscience regarding my vote.

Then your conscience is malformed. I’m letting you know out of charity and concern for your soul.

I know I’m not poorly catechized since I have a Master’s in Theology, and am a PhD can. in Theology, and teach RC Theology, primarily Christology.

I think I understand “material cooperation with evil,” - remote, mediate, immediate, and formal - better than most. I’m at peace with my vote for Sanders or Clinton, and God will judge me some day, not anyone else. I have no fear of that judgment.

That’s an unhealthy attitude to take. St. Paul said to work out your salvation in fear and trembling.

 

[zz912]

You also have countries like Germany, which spends more as a percentage of GDP than both the US and Canada, yet it is still economically prosperous.

Because it is relatively insulated because they are the best of the bunch in a crumbling EU. And let’s not pretend their welfare state isn’t showing signs of collapse as well.

 

[zz912]

As if the private insurance system doesn’t ration care based on how much insurance one can afford in premiums and deductibles and before Obama came along, people were denied coverage all the time for pre-existing conditions.

Far less rationing than government run healthcare.

 

[zz912]

Social Security will change, but neither Republicans or Democrats will yank someone’s entire income from them, putting them on welfare rolls.

I don’t have a plan. I don’t have to have a plan. I’m not a Congressperson. But I know Congress - Republican or Democratic - won’t pull the rug out from under tens of thousands of seniors, many who fought in combat for this country.

The whole program is collapsing, and you have no idea about possible solutions? You’ve not weighed alternate plans for fixing it? You’re just going to vote without looking at how they claim they can fix it?

The post office is still going strong. How many people use the post office? I haven’t even been inside one in years. I pay online. When I order something, I get it through FedEx or UPS. But just because the postal system is antiquated, I don’t think the government is simply going to abandon it and the postal workers.

No, it’s not. The Post Office is billions in debt and getting worse each year. It is going bankrupt as well.

 

[estesbob]

I know I’m not poorly catechized since I have a Master’s in Theology, and am a PhD can. in Theology, and teach RC Theology, primarily Christology.

I think I understand “material cooperation with evil,” - remote, mediate, immediate, and formal - better than most. I’m at peace with my vote for Sanders or Clinton, and God will judge me some day, not anyone else. I have no fear of that judgment.

Then you should be able to provide a link or quote by any member of the magestrium or Church document backing up your position-I have, as have others, and the only response we have gotten is personal interpretation of a Bishops guide and “a Priest told me it was OK”

*No,You can never vote for someone who favors absolutely the right to choice of a woman to destroy a human life in her womb or the right to a procured abortion."You "may in some circumstances, where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country. But you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone.

Cardinal Burke*

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Then you should be able to provide a link or quote by any member of the magestrium or Church document backing up your position-I have, as have others, and the only response we have gotten is personal interpretation of a Bishops guide and “a Priest told me it was OK”

Why? I’m not seeking to justify my vote to anyone but God.

And I did post the Benedict XVI’s words.

 

[estesbob]

Why? I’m not seeking to justify my vote to anyone but God.

And I did post the Benedict XVI’s words.

So you want people in a discussion group to take your word for it? And has as been pointed out repeatedly the Church has made it clear what Pope Benedict meant is his one line footnote to a letter when he talked about proportionality. A letter, BTW, where he made it quite clear that Support of the War and/or the death penalty were not proportionate reasons to vote for a pro-abortion candidate. We have not seen a single iota of evidence backing up the position of those who claim a Catholic can vote for a pro-abortion candidate when their opponent is less pro-abortion than they are.

I am confident that those reading these threads can see who offers evidence and who offers opinions.

*At this point, the Democratic Party risks transforming itself definitively into a “party of death” due to its choices on bioethical issues, as Ramesh Ponnuru wrote in his book "The Party of Death: The Democrats, the Media, the Courts and the Disregard for Human Life."And I say this with a heavy heart, because we all know that the Democrats were the party that helped our Catholic immigrant parents and grandparents to better integrate into and prosper in American society. But it’s not the same anymore.Nonetheless, there are among Democrats some pro-lifers, but they are, unfortunately, rare.
*

Cardinal Edmund Burke