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J_Peterson
Guest
You didn’t answer the question. What if Bernie’s policies result in less abortions. Is it still a sin to vote for him?
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estesbob
Guest
The Church says you can not vote for a pro-abortion candidate unless their opponent is more pro-abortion than they are. Seems pretty clear to me.
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Peter_J
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If it happened once, I wouldn’t necessarily assume that it would happen again.
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estesbob
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its nonsense Abortion rates have dropped because of the hard work of millions of people involved in the pro-life ministry. We have established CPCs, lobbied our elected officials to pass laws limiting abortion and refrained from voting for those who have vowed to keep abortion legal. Because of this we have the Partial Birth abortion law passed, parental consent laws, waiting periods and requiring abortion clinics to meet minimum health standards. We have seen numerous abortion clinics close in the last year alone becuase of these effort Because of our efforts we have been able to bring the abortion rate down nearly 20% since Roe was imposed. We did all this in spite of the unified opposition of mostly democrat Party office holders. .
But again it is best to turn to the Magestrium when claims like this are made:
*And here’s the irony. None of the Catholic arguments advanced in favor of Senator Obama are new. They’ve been around, in one form or another, for more than 25 years. All of them seek to ‘‘get beyond’’ abortion, or economically reduce the number of abortions, or create a better society where abortion won’t be necessary. All of them involve a misuse of the seamless garment imagery in Catholic social teaching. And all of them, in practice, seek to contextualize, demote and then counterbalance the evil of abortion with other important but less foundational social issues.This is a great sadness. As Chicago’s Cardinal Francis George said recently, too many Americans have ‘‘no recognition of the fact that children continue to be killed [by abortion], and we live therefore, in a country drenched in blood. This can’t be something you start playing off pragmatically against other issues.’’
Meanwhile, the basic human rights violation at the heart of abortion - the intentional destruction of an innocent, developing human life - is wordsmithed away as a terrible crime that just can’t be fixed by the law. I don’t believe that. I think that argument is a fraud. And I don’t think any serious believer can accept that argument without damaging his or her credibility. We still have more than a million abortions a year, and we can’t blame them all on Republican social policies. After all, it was a Democratic president, not a Republican, who vetoed the partial birth abortion ban - twice.*
Archbishop Charles Chaput
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Crossbones
Guest
I don’t think it takes much inference to understand the Bishop’s statements. He is talking about issues raised in the Forming Consciences guide and he is saying Catholics need to weigh these issues when voting.
And we should remember, this is in response to your demand that the voting guide has no teaching authority because it comes from a council. It would seem that Bishop Kicanas is supporting it as a guide for his diocese.
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estesbob
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Weigh what issues? What issue outweigh abortion? Where does the Church list there issues? Are there any Issues that Sanders supports that mitigates his support of unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand?
Bishop Kincanas has said nothing that contradict what i or anyone else has posted to this thread.
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Crossbones
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Since the discussion was about the Forming Consciences guide, the issues are listed in that guide.
I would certainly say that the bishop is contradicting your view that the only issue that matters is the politician’s support for abortion.
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estesbob
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The guide lists no issues that outweigh abortion. There is no problem whatsoever with the Bishops words. The problem is with people twisting them to rationalize voting to support evil.
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Crossbones
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Apparently, the bishop disagrees with you since he said it was not a ‘slam dunk’ on who to vote for.
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Lily_Bernans
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If he weren’t he wouldn’t instruct Catholics to weight issues, plural. I think the bishop knows abortion is only one issue among many, and feel you think the same, though I’m not trying to put words in your mouth.
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Lily_Bernans
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I respect Bob personally, but agree with you on this. And I respect you, too, of course.
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estesbob
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So you should have no problem pointing put what these issues are and where the Church says they outweigh abortion.If he weren’t he wouldn’t instruct Catholics to weight issues, plural. I think the bishop knows abortion is only one issue among many, and feel you think the same, though I’m not trying to put words in your mouth.
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mary_bobo
Guest
True, abortion is not the only issue. There is also euthanasia, same sex marriage, acting on homosexual tendencies. I. Guess they don’t matter. One is free to believe as one wishes, I feel more comfortable going along with the teachings of the Church.If he weren’t he wouldn’t instruct Catholics to weight issues, plural. I think the bishop knows abortion is only one issue among many, and feel you think the same, though I’m not trying to put words in your mouth.
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estesbob
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Where does the Church say abortion is just one issue among others and what are these other issues?If he weren’t he wouldn’t instruct Catholics to weight issues, plural. I think the bishop knows abortion is only one issue among many, and feel you think the same, though I’m not trying to put words in your mouth.
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DeniseNY
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Bob, your unwavering dedication to educating people on what the Church truly says on this issue is commendable!
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estesbob
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Thx!
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gilliam
Guest
Bernie Sanders demands apology from Hillary Clinton for accusing him of lying: abcn.ws/21XL1DV
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Little_Sheep
Guest
Why should the Republicans have all the fun?
The Democrat candidates should be allowed a dull dust-up or two. “Dull,” of course, because both Clinton and Sanders are honorable, decent people.
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Lily_Bernans
Guest
And did you see Hillary chastise a Bernie supporter who was heckling her? LOL She wasn’t mean, but she had had enough.Why should the Republicans have all the fun?
The Democrat candidates should be allowed a dull dust-up or two. “Dull,” of course, because both Clinton and Sanders are honorable, decent people.
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Little_Sheep
Guest
I had to chuckle at that! I mean, truly, I respect any politician who can put up with constant stream of abuse and keep on keeping on. God bless those people - I could’t do it!
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