SanFrancisco bishop Thinks Gay Propaganda Film Brokeback Mountain is "Very Powerful"

[Brendan]

frommi:

Actually one of the great challenges of understanding truth is not letting our personal perspective get in the way.

Which is exactly why we have an Infallible Magisterium. I don’t need to worry if my personal perspectives are clouding the Truth, I just have to follow what Rome says.

We can’t get into this idea that we carry the truth around in our back pocket.

Just a copy of the Catechism, which is about as close as one can get.

And in my experience, as soon as someone says they are following the ‘truth’, it means they don’t have anything intelligent left to say

Really, Aquinas said that a lot and someone managed to have lots of intellegent stuff left to say.

In fact, I would consider the following of Truth to be a fundemental feature of intellegence. Why would you find them to be contradictory?

 

[irenaeus1]

Libero:

Hmmm,In fact one book that I hunted out from a library even states that the church used to marry homosexual missionaries within the first 100 - 200 years of it’s existence.

What a crock! Was the book written by Fr. Curran or Andrew Sullivan? Please consider the source as I am not even aware of any credible secular historian who would make such an outlandish proposal. Also, where’s the historical record of the conflict and severe rift in the Church that would have resulted from the apparent departure in teaching with regard to homosexuals.

catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_on_Homosexuality.asp

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[irenaeus1]

Libero:

I think I have finally gotten why we can’t seem to find any common ground on this matter. I am thinking of God through the loving, forgiving, father figure - as opposed to you who seem to be concentrating on the judgemental king type view - where God quickly decides our fate solely on how well we followed his rules.

There is a fundamental difference in the way that we choose to look at these instances, which is why we have such conflicting opinions.

Note, this is not an attack - it is said all in the most upbeat manner

An excerpt from and article from Bishop Vasa in The Catholic Sentinel Feb. 17, 2006:
We live in an age which places a very strong emphasis on tolerance, mutuality, and acceptance. I have heard repeatedly over the years that “Jesus never judged, condemned or excluded anyone.” I wonder if Peter would agree as the words of Jesus, “Get behind me you Satan,” rang in his ears. I wonder if the Scribes and the Pharisees would agree as they rankled at being called whitened sepulchers or broods of vipers. I wonder if those who heard Jesus say, “Whoever leads one of these little ones astray, it would be better if he had a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea,” nodded approval and said, “He is so tolerant and accepting.” . . .

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[Libero]

Under your logic, a parent shouldn’t accept a returning Prodigal Daughter, as only sons were mentioned. Or that a Rich woman should have to give to the poor when following God, as only Rich MEN were mentioned.

Really bad logic there Libero.

You will note, that I did not put my own personal viewpoint of the fact into the comment, and these are two entirely different matters, I shall not dumb down the bible. There are many scripts concerning male homosexuality, but only one about the prodigal son, it is acceptable to apply the single script about the prodigal son to both sexes. Yet, out of the numerous, often very graphic and detailed accounts of homosexuality - there is not one about lesbians.

And I know of a book in a library that claims the Earth is Flat. Does the existance of such a book make is so?

Nope, and I suggest you don’t bother reading it either - it is wrong. However, as of yet, nobody has shown me any evidence contrary to this historians comments…

Sure He did. The words of Leviticus are the words of Jesus too. He is the exact same God.

And do you think it is okay to disobey some of Jesus’ words? Cherry picking what to follow - or have you never shaved?

 

[Libero]

What a crock! Was the book written by Fr. Curran or Andrew Sullivan? Please consider the source as I am not even aware of any credible secular historian who would make such an outlandish proposal. Also, where’s the historical record of the conflict and severe rift in the Church that would have resulted from the apparent departure in teaching with regard to homosexuals.

Well, it was not written by either of those - it wont be written by a priest anyway, as it is in my school library - it shall be written by an historian, as all the books there have been through a process of selection. You may not be aware of such an historian, as we are in different countries, you would choose not to read a book that questions the church in any way, or you are simply not aware of all the historians in the world.

As I have said, no one has provided evidence contrary.

I shall get the authors name, but it will be a while - I can’t go back to the library till Monday.

 

[estesbob]

Libero:

Hmmm, I think it would be very foolish just to take your word on that matter, I have been doing some research into church history, and influences at the time of the establishment of the church.

In fact one book that I hunted out from a library even states that the church used to marry homosexual missionaries within the first 100 - 200 years of it’s existence. It then goes further to discuss how our church was corrupted by the Roman Empire.

Complete and utter nonsnese. Was their an imprimatur a hihil obstat on that book??? I am afraid you have availed youself of some Catholic Bashing homosexual propoganda. I am suprised you would do that being you are a Catholic and the Cathecism of the Church lays out the teachings on homosexuality quite clearly

I frequently hear “The Truth that has been unaltered for 2000 years” - but sometimes I doubt it, we no longer take so many of the teachings from Leviticus seriously, we dont take the punishments demanded for sins like adultury seriously. We no longer have the beliefs about sexual fluids (we wouldn’t proclaim that a woman who has gone through the menstrual period is unclean for 7 days), we don’t still have an acceptance of polygamy.

WOW-thats quite a discovery you made. Catholics are no longer required to follow the mosaic laws concerning diet and hygiene!!! Why the church has only been pointing that out for 2,000 years.

Your posts are a perfect ecxample of the pitfalls of questioning Church teachings. Since you do not want to accept the Church’s teaching on homosexuality you feel a need to attack others of its teachings in order to rationalize your disobedience. In doing so you increasingly seperate yourself from the Church.

Even the pope is looking into changing the concept of Limbo.

As for Jesus proclaiming these teachings, he didn’t even have anything to say about homosexuality, then there is the bible, which appears only to have a problem with gay men - there is a shortage of stories about lesbians it would appear.

Unaltered Truth? Sometimes I wonder…

Lmibo has never been a church doctrine. As fot the rest of your rant you are beginning to sound more and more like Andrew Sullivan. Jesus didnt mention a whole pantheon of sins. For instance where does jesus condemn rape-does that mean it ok to do it?? How about incest? Pediophilia? Hhe never mentioned those either.

Your disagreement with church tecahings on Homosexualtiy is dragging you further further away from the Church-it is a pity

 

[estesbob]

frommi:

And in my experience, as soon as someone says they are following the ‘truth’, it means they don’t have anything intelligent left to say

And in my expereince it means they are a practicing Catholic.

 

[JSmitty2005]

estesbob:

And in my expereince it means they are a practicing Catholic.

:clapping: :yup: :clapping:

 

[Libero]

Complete and utter nonsnese. Was their an imprimatur a hihil obstat on that book??? I am afraid you have availed youself of some Catholic Bashing homosexual propoganda. I am suprised you would do that being you are a Catholic and the Cathecism of the Church lays out the teachings on homosexuality quite clearly

Ha - in a school library, I don’t think so. Propoganda - it is called not being ignorant, I am prepared to educate myself from every viewpoint. Do you ever consider your understanding of what a Catholic is to be naive?

Lmibo has never been a church doctrine. As fot the rest of your rant you are beginning to sound more and more like Andrew Sullivan. Jesus didnt mention a whole pantheon of sins. For instance where does jesus condemn rape-does that mean it ok to do it?? How about incest? Pediophilia? Hhe never mentioned those either.

Your disagreement with church tecahings on Homosexualtiy is dragging you further further away from the Church-it is a pity

My disagreement with the church teachings, is dragging me further away from the church, but closer to God - not a pity. But then again, this has happened to so many - there appears to be a trend it seems that these are often the people who decide to educate themselves in the matters of God and teachings, even The Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales has picked up on this…

Stick to the church if you want, but I shall take God anyday, I would far prefer God to what is simply many buildings and many books.

Your posts are a perfect ecxample of the pitfalls of questioning Church teachings. Since you do not want to accept the Church’s teaching on homosexuality you feel a need to attack others of its teachings in order to rationalize your disobedience. In doing so you increasingly seperate yourself from the Church.

Not want to accept? I am unsure here, I don’t have a quarell with it really, it just seems strange, try studying it - you may be shocked to. When I look to find other corrupted teachings, I only notice how great the distortion of the bible and Gods word really is, did you know that we are still interpreting the bible - all because for so many years it has been incorrectly translate - what a shame - it would appear though, that the correct version is far more in line with God than the incorrect one that has been forced down our throats.

Am I affraid to separate myself from the church? NO. The church is supposed to bring us closer to God - it is not in my case, I find it is merely a corrupted institution that is terribly flawed, and seems incapable of correcting itself…

 

[Achatius]

I kinda agree, I have heard in places that the Church has based many of its teachings on what they think is wrong or right, not from the words of Jesus which we should really listen to.

Generally i think everyone should get over the fact that a film was made about homosexuals rather than heterosexuals, it was made to appeal to a specific audience, and i think it done just that.

Brokeback Mountain should not disturb anyone; it is just an inevitable slice of reality. It is irrational to waste time and energy protesting facts. I think that psychologically speaking, if you are upset by the images of gay expression or physical love you are reacting to the imagination of yourself in those circumstances. If the humanization of gay people make you angry or upset, you need to mature beyond your misconceptions.

 

[Achatius]

estesbob:

And in my expereince it means they are a practicing Catholic.

And I think you are just using that statement as the only thing you can come up with that will be able to counter the serious analytical statement of ‘frommi’, because it appeals to all Catholics’ need to feel they are Catholic.

 

[Christus_Rex]

The infallible Church CANNOT and WOULD NOT teach something which is false. What the Church thinks is right and wrong is what CHRIST thinks is right and wrong!

 

[Christus_Rex]

this has some stuff on “homosexual weddings in the Early Church”
dailycatholic.org/issue/2002May/may23tru.htm

You do know that the whole “corrupted by Rome” is just a made up anti-Catholic idea used by Fundamentalists. It is in no way factual.

I worry for you Libero. You belong here, in Christ’s Church! I worry that you are making homosexuality into a big wedge between you and the Church which God created. If you, with an open mind and a true desire to learn, research the Church’s teaching I’m sure you will understand. The Church IS NOT a corrupt institution! It’s not just buildings and books! The gates of the netherworld will NEVER prevail! What makes you think it is corrupt?

First read this:
catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp
AND:
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Do you have any problems with the above from the CCC? If you still want to have an answer to something you feel is wrong in the tract, why don’t you post up some bullet points and we’ll try and answer.

 

[irenaeus1]

Libero:

As I have said, no one has provided evidence contrary.

Actually, it’s the other way around. There is no evidence to support the claim this book makes. I’d be interested in the title and author. And yes, I’ve read many books that disagree with the Church.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[irenaeus1]

Libero:

My disagreement with the church teachings, is dragging me further away from the church, but closer to God - not a pity.

If drifting further from the Church is leading you closer to God, then why in the world would you want to be a Catholic? The Church claims to be instituted by Christ and thus infallible with regard to its teaching authority. So if the Church is indeed infallible as she claims, then you are wrong if you disagree with her concerning her teachings. If she is not infallible as she claims, then she is seriously deceived and deluded. Either way, why would you want to belong to such an organization in which you are either wrong or in which the organization is too deceitful and confused to be a moral guide? This makes no sense.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[estesbob]

Libero:

Ha - in a school library, I don’t think so. Propoganda - it is called not being ignorant, I am prepared to educate myself from every viewpoint. Do you ever consider your understanding of what a Catholic is to be naive?

No-why should I? I am a cradle catholic who recieved 16 years of catholic education , includng 4 years studying in the Seminary. Your sum total of understanding seems to be that since you dont like the teachings of the Church on homosexualtiy we are all naive

My disagreement with the church teachings, is dragging me further away from the church, but closer to God - not a pity. But then again, this has happened to so many - there appears to be a trend it seems that these are often the people who decide to educate themselves in the matters of God and teachings, even The Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales has picked up on this…

How do you know that? At the age of 15 you have suddenly decided that you have aquired more wisdom than all of those who went before you in the last 2000 years?

Stick to the church if you want, but I shall take God anyday, I would far prefer God to what is simply many buildings and many books.

And you are calling us naive??? You dont prefer God-you prefer a ‘god’ that you have created that supports whatever you want to believe in.

Not want to accept? I am unsure here, I don’t have a quarell with it really, it just seems strange, try studying it - you may be shocked to. When I look to find other corrupted teachings, I only notice how great the distortion of the bible and Gods word really is, did you know that we are still interpreting the bible - all because for so many years it has been incorrectly translate - what a shame - it would appear though, that the correct version is far more in line with God than the incorrect one that has been forced down our throats.

Am I affraid to separate myself from the church? NO. The church is supposed to bring us closer to God - it is not in my case, I find it is merely a corrupted institution that is terribly flawed, and seems incapable of correcting itself…

Like I said-once you start picking and choosing the teachings of the Curch you want to obey it has a devastaing effect on your spiritul life.

I dont know what this 'journey" of disobedience you are on has taken you closer to(but i have some strong suspicons) but I guarantee you its not God.

 

[estesbob]

Achatius:

And I think you are just using that statement as the only thing you can come up with that will be able to counter the serious analytical statement of ‘frommi’, because it appeals to all Catholics’ need to feel they are Catholic.

ONLY thing I can come up with??? It is the very essence of being a Catholic. As far as the serious analytical stament by frommi Ill be glad comment on it if and when he ever posts one.

 

[Libero]

No-why should I? I am a cradle catholic who recieved 16 years of catholic education , includng 4 years studying in the Seminary. Your sum total of understanding seems to be that since you dont like the teachings of the Church on homosexualtiy we are all naive

Well that is wrong, my sum total of research into homosexuality happens to be 7 books, three letters of correspondance with bishops, one being the Cardinal Archbishop, 6 months of arguments on CAF (lol) 4 months of confussion, many hours of internet reading, and a confirmation course. I have gone all out to further my understanding.

How do you know that? At the age of 15 you have suddenly decided that you have aquired more wisdom than all of those who went before you in the last 2000 years?

Certainly not, don’t know where you got that idea from either. And ruling out a person due to their age is an extremely stupid thing to do, it only brings you down in my book - and you were held in quite high esteem as well.

If drifting further from the Church is leading you closer to God, then why in the world would you want to be a Catholic? The Church claims to be instituted by Christ and thus infallible with regard to its teaching authority. So if the Church is indeed infallible as she claims, then you are wrong if you disagree with her concerning her teachings. If she is not infallible as she claims, then she is seriously deceived and deluded. Either way, why would you want to belong to such an organization in which you are either wrong or in which the organization is too deceitful and confused to be a moral guide? This makes no sense.

Abortion - I feel very strongly on this issue, besides that, the Catholic church has other appeal than just it’s teachings.

To Estesbob, I suggest you take a cooling period, and we cut communication, things are turning nasty - not very spirtual or religious. Besides that, the topic has drifted so far off course - onto me…

 

[Achatius]

Christus Rex:

The infallible Church CANNOT and WOULD NOT teach something which is false. What the Church thinks is right and wrong is what CHRIST thinks is right and wrong!

I don’t think so - what Jesus thinks is right is wrong is what the Church thinks is right or wrong; but what the church believes is right and wrong is not what Jesus thinks is right or wrong.

 

[Achatius]

estesbob:

ONLY thing I can come up with??? It is the very essence of being a Catholic. As far as the serious analytical stament by frommi Ill be glad comment on it if and when he ever posts one.

No need to attack frommi…