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Reservoir_Dog said:
Well, germanic tribes were Christianized by arian missionaries, or they were pagan. Those tribes rolled over the western empire and would have imposed arian christianity on the catholic gallo-romans. But the warlord who ended the last roman enclave in the west (the Domain of Soissons) was a Frankish pagan who married a Burgundian. The Burgundian court was arian, except for that woman, who was roman catholic. Because she was roman catholic, Clovis was eventually baptized RC, and Clovis proved to be the strongest of the germanic warlords. Hence… the west remained trinitarian.
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Not to get into all the questions of history (would have too look them up alas…I am more of a theologian than a historian…)

The Catholic Church of course was never Arian.

No matter what some persons did.

But this thread is NOT about this…lets not derail anything.
 
lil_flower_luv said:
The only time your children should be concerned with St. Nicholas is while the Church is celebrating his Feast Day (yesterday). He was a Roman Catholic bishop who gave away all his wealth to serve the poor, was imprisoned for his Faith, and had ZERO tolerance for heretics, I might add.👍 Humble man. Great saint. Let the rest of this Holy Advent season be dedicated to celebrating the birth of Christ in our hearts and homes. Remember, we’re Catholic Christians…we don’t follow the guidelines society has deemed fit for “Christmas.”

Who’s going to the vigil Mass? Midnight Mass? Christmas Day? 🙂
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Vigil 4:30 pm and Christmas day 9:15 and 10:45.

Have to be in bed by 9:00 pm Christmas eve so Santa will come. 👍
 
Bookcat said:
Not to get into all the questions of history (would have too look them up alas…I am more of a theologian than a historian…)
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Typical of modern man: all his best statements are in parentheses. So are you saying you’re a spiritual son of Hollywood? You wouldn’t be alone, just alone in admitting it.
 
johnpfmcguire said:
Typical of modern man: all his best statements are in parentheses. So are you saying you’re a spiritual son of Hollywood? You wouldn’t be alone, just alone in admitting it.
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No…just not up on all the various details of the ages of history…(beyond general and moments of particular interest to me) so I would have to look it up on the details…

I am a BOOKcat by the way…books are very important 🙂 Did not say I would check my DVD’s … 🙂

Again lets not derail the thread 🙂

otherwise we will get on the “naughty” list…
 
Bookcat said:
Not to get into all the questions of history (would have too look them up alas…I am more of a theologian than a historian…)

The Catholic Church of course was never Arian.

No matter what some persons did.

But this thread is NOT about this…lets not derail anything.
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I’m not trying to derail it, but the church in the west post-empire was nearly arian, not catholic.
 
Reservoir_Dog said:
I’m not trying to derail it, but the church in the west post-empire was nearly arian, not catholic.
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My point was that those who deighed the Faith regarding Christ were not embracing the Catholic Faith…but where at odds with it…

Arianism was not part of the Faith of the Church…so hence I would not say “the Church was nearly arian”…for they were at odds with the Church here…

Yes a good deal individual persons entered into this error. But others did not embrace this heresy holding fast with Successor of St. Peter (who was fulfilling part of his role here) and the Faithful Bishops and and other Faithful Christians. They embraced and held fast to what the Church actually taught.

But yes…we now return to our regularly scheduled thread.
 
Reservoir_Dog said:
I’m not trying to derail it, but the church in the west post-empire was nearly arian, not catholic.
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The trouble is (I think) as an Episcopalean you’re used to dealing with a good ratio of establishment hangers-on among your coreligionists. While there certainly are clericalist Catholics, Catholicism is not clericalism. To get your mind around that is to understand why your comment has not proved nearly as provocative as you expected it would.
 
johnpfmcguire said:
The trouble is (I think) as an Episcopalean you’re used to dealing with a good ratio of establishment hangers-on among your coreligionists. While there certainly are clericalist Catholics, Catholicism is not clericalism. To get your mind around that is to understand why your comment has not proved nearly as provocative as you expected it would.
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What are you talking about? I’m not “Episcopalean” and this has nothing to do with modern times.

I’m talking about the conquest of Roman Gaul by Arianized Germanic tribes and the role of Clovis - as the only Catholic warlord – in keeping the western church Catholic, circa 486. He conquered the last of the imperial holdouts in Gaul and then won important battles over other Germanic pagan and Arian warlords. Are you not familiar with late antiquity? If the Merovingian dynasty wasn’t Catholic, it would have been Arian, and Catholicism would be confined to probably Rome and only there with a Byzantine flavor, and maybe the Celtic fringe.

What does that have to do with “clericalism”???

Try again.
 
I’ve tried and succeeded. Among Catholics there’s a much higher ratio of “political atheists.” Now I’d ask you to try again, only I…can’t…watch…
 
Bookcat said:
My point was that those who deighed the Faith regarding Christ were not embracing the Catholic Faith…but where at odds with it…

Arianism was not part of the Faith of the Church…so hence I would not say “the Church was nearly arian”…for they were at odds with the Church here…

Yes a good deal individual persons entered into this error. But others did not embrace this heresy holding fast with Successor of St. Peter (who was fulfilling part of his role here) and the Faithful Bishops and and other Faithful Christians. They embraced and held fast to what the Church actually taught.

But yes…we now return to our regularly scheduled thread.
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Give me a ratio of how many were and were not.

Just so I can try to make sense of the statements you made here.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Actually, he was not. He’s a Greek Bishop, so he’s definitely Byzantine. Myra is in Turkey so it belongs to the Christian East, not West.
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At this time in history, there was not the definitive schism/distinction between Catholic Christians.
 
StrawberryJam said:
Isn’t it boring to have to point to the obvious?

Trying to be polite also has it’s limits.

They don’t even know their faith well.
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It turned up Sunday, and that was the first time I’d ever heard the arian heresy worked into a sermon.

Arius isn’t as interesting as his heresy and how close the west came to being unitarian, you could say it was an accident of history that RC survived.
 
Vince1022 said:
At this time in history, there was not the definitive schism/distinction between Catholic Christians.
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There was East and West way before the Schism
St. Nicholas being a Bishop of Myra and Myra being in modern day Turkey would be 100% not under the Roman Church, even if you do not consider the East-West boundary at that time.
 
Reservoir_Dog said:
It turned up Sunday, and that was the first time I’d ever heard the arian heresy worked into a sermon.

Arius isn’t as interesting as his heresy and how close the west came to being unitarian, you could say it was an accident of history that RC survived.
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Well don’t be too overjoyed about it. :rolleyes:
 
Enough!

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