Satan Discussion

[Oreoracle]

Really? Oreoracle, you crave Murder, War, Bloodshed, Lies, Iniquity, Hatred, Destroying Families, Destroying Love and Benevolence, stealing human souls for destruction. I didn’t know we all were supposed to pursue this, but thanks for the heads-up!

Two strawman arguments in one! You, me, and Lucifer crave pleasure, there’s no escaping that. Some people murder because it gives them pleasure, but they don’t crave murder in itself. I would argue that I don’t crave anything except pleasure itself.

But pleasure is attained by satisfying one’s values. The difference between Lucifer and I is that I recognize the importance of others’ cravings, and so I work to please others. In other words, I value your pleasure; I take pleasure in giving you pleasure. So no, I don’t believe we’re all supposed to pursue what you mentioned.

Of course, I expect you to avoid my assertions and hide behind your veil of sarcasm and run back to your anti-pleasure dogma.

 

[Oreoracle]

Satan would have died on a cross for our sins? Only in your dreams!

I think he would have. He would have posed a slew of arbitrary rules that contradict our sensibilities (an act of arrogance). He would have claimed we had failed him for sinning (an act of arrogance). He would have proceeded to assert that “the sins must be atoned” (as if some imaginary law exists outside of his approval). He would have seen this as a chance to skyrocket his glory by playing the hero and “suffering” for our sins (another act of arrogance!).

It seems likely to me, anyway.

 

[Eucharisted]

1. Are Lucifer and Satan one and the same? Why the name change?

Lucifer is the biblical symbolic name for the devil. Satan is the devil’s title. Devil is the devil’s nature. Satan has become the demon’s proper name. Lucifer means “morning star”, which theologians take to mean Satan was the highest angel, a seraphim. Satan means “adversary”, which means he is both our enemy and has opposing ideals to us: He is against us because he is against God, whereas we must love others because we love God, and he desires our destruction, whereas we desire our salvation.

1. What is the essence of Satan’s personality?

Angels don’t have personalities. They are spirits, beings who are will, intellect, and imagination. Because of this, they are pure power. To put it into perspective, it took the human mind to create an atomic bomb. Now, the angel is pure will, intellect, and imagination, and what is more, the angel is even more powerful than us. So they are pure power. God created them to be His servants, the servants of His love and mercy, His justice, etc. Hence, Satan, who became evil without losing his nature - in a similar yet opposite way to how God became man without losing His Nature - dose not have a personality. He is simply an agent of evil. He is evil personified, being metaphysical evil.

1. Why does he want us to be brought down with him?

Because he hates us. It is pure blind hatred. There is no rationality in it. There is nothing rational in what he dose or wants. He is simply self-blinded, driven by evil. His will is entirely and eternally set in evil. He hates God, so he hates us. It is unrational hatred, the fruit of pure wickedness.

1. How does he achieve this end?

Temptation. A single mortal sin is enough to cause damnation.

1. How can we best combat him?

Prayer, faith, and virtue.

1. Why did God create Lucifer in the first place?

Out of love.

1. Why is there devil-worship?

Why is there idoltry?

1. Why is hell forever?

Because of man’s actions. Actions bear consequences. If man persists in living in Hell, he’ll continue to live in Hell after death.

 

[tonyfran]

Now I am confused. What devil-worship? People who claim to worship Satan or Lucifer do not worship the same entity portrayed in your Bible.

I’ve been thinking about the similarities between the characteristics of God and Satan, and it is my personal opinion that, if Satan had been the one who was more powerful than God, things would have ended up exactly the same. They both have the same kind of arrogance.

Cain and Abel were both brothers So there can be similarities between them.
In WWII, The Nazis and the Allies were men. So there were similarities between them too.
Satan craves to be GOD. So Satan will at least try to have some similarity with God.
The difference is how they chose to achieve their ends.

 

[beckycmarie]

You are aware that liberalism is a political philosophy, right? It has nothing to do with theology. But you, of course, will ignore this fact, because tossing around labels is fun for simple-minded folk.

I will chalk up this example of failure in charity as the fruit of your atheism. By their fruits you will know them. . . (Matthew 7:16)

Having a liberal worldview can indeed affect someone’s understanding of theology and acceptance of the truth. See Liberalism Is a Sin. There are more ways to be liberal than being so in a political sense.

 

[Michael_Francis]

***4 posts have been deleted for being off topic and several have been edited for various reasons,

This thread is a discussion about Satan…not a philosophical debate of “liberalism”, atheism, and/or “what ifs”.

Please remain on topic and maintain the highest level of charity or expect the thread to be closed or pulled.
Very sincerely,***

 

[Charlemagne_II]

from the first reading at Mass today:

**Wis 2:23-24

For God formed man to be imperishable;
the image of his own nature he made him.
But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world,
and they who belong to his company experience it. **

Who said the devil has no personality?

 

[Ghosty]

Lucifer means the bearer of light, and is the name of the pagan roman God who was worshiped along with a Godess. They were commonly refered to as the Lord and Lady.

“Light-Bringer” is the literal meaning, but it refers to Venus, the “Morning Star”. Christ is refered to as lucifer in the New Testament:

2 Peter 1:19 (Latin)

et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

2 Peter 1:19 (English)

And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts.

Lucifer is NOT a proper name for Satan from Scripture, but in the Middle Ages it did begin to be used for Satan fairly exclusively.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

This is from the old Catholic Encyclopedia:

*Lucifer

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for “the light of the morning” (Job 11:17), “the signs of the zodiac” (Job 38:32), and “the aurora” (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the “Exultet” of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.

The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, “to lament”; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1.14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4). *

 

[KyivAndrew]

1. Why is hell forever?

Let me play “devil’s advocate” for a second on this one and no pun is intended, just nothing else comes to mind right now. The liberal theologian Hans Kung, who was recently invited by our current pope to lunch at his summer getaway, perhaps to mend personal fences, had this to say about the eternity of hell in his book Eternal Life?:

“Why then should we want to stick to the letter of the Bible and to take absolutely literally metaphorical speech about the ‘eternal fire’? Darkness, weeping, gnashing of teeth, fire: all these are harsh-sounding metaphors for the menacing possibility that a person may completely miss the meaning of his life. In their day even Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Jerome and Ambrose interpreted the fire metaphorically. ‘Fire’ is a metaphor for God’s wrath, ‘eternal’ is not always understood in the strict sense in Hebrew, Greek and modern linguistic usage (‘this goes on eternally’ means ‘endlessly’, ‘an indefinitely long time’). In the ‘eternal punishment’ of the Last Judgment the stress lies on the fact that this punishment is definitive, final, decisive for all eternity, but not on the eternal duration of the torment. Neither in Judaism nor in the New Testament is there any uniform view of the period of punishment for sin. In addition to statements about eternal punishment, there are texts which assume a complete destruction. And throughout Church history, in addition to traditional dualism, the possibility of annihilation or even universal reconciliation (restitutio omnium, apocatastasis ton panton) have been defended.”

I cannot say I’m an avid fan of Kung but this is food for thought on this thread I guess.

 

[geometer]

This is from the old Catholic Encyclopedia:

*Lucifer

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for “the light of the morning” (Job 11:17), “the signs of the zodiac” (Job 38:32), and “the aurora” (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the “Exultet” of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.

The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, “to lament”; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1.14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4). *

This is very confused. The scriptural word is helale which does not mean mourning, it means brilliantly shining. The word is also used figuratively to mean boasting.

Latin has no authority, the bible is hebrew and greek. Bringing up latin only adds confusion…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Kyiv

I’ve never read much of Kung, and I can’t say, from reading this, that I am likely to have missed a great deal. When in years past I used to pick up a book of his, I would find myself tiring of it before long. Never was quite certain of what put me off … perhaps that he was often so tentative about so many important matters. This passage reminds me of those days. I am always looking for something to sink my teeth in and chew on, rather than a kind of bland cream cereal that just slides on down.

As my students used to say when they missed a class, “Did I miss something important?”

For myself, I think hell is going to be terrible and forever … which could be a motive for getting *some people *to behave otherwise than they might.

I hope the Pope and Kung had a pleasant lunch together!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

geometer

Since you did not capitalize hebrew, greek, or latin, I have to wonder what your credentials are in any of these languages.

Can you clarify?

 

[KyivAndrew]

Kyiv
When in years past I used to pick up a book of his, I would find myself tiring of it before long. Never was quite certain of what put me off … perhaps that he was often so tentative about so many important matters.
I hope the Pope and Kung had a pleasant lunch together!

I hear you on Kung…my sentiments exactly…It always seemed to me when he spoke that it seemed as if he was trying to be the “cool lefty” in the Ivory Tower, shouting at the top of his lungs: “Look at me…I’m disobeying the Big Guy in Rome”(applause). It seemed that he became infatuated with his rebelliousness. I could be wrong. But I know of what you speak.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

“I have no pleasure in any man who despises music. It is no invention of ours: it is a gift of God. I place it next to theology. Satan hates music: he knows how it drives the evil spirit out of us.” Martin Luther

Even heretics are right some of the time.

youtube.com/watch?v=OY5Bg6Nk6Gc

 

[KyivAndrew]

1. Why did God create Lucifer in the first place?

I would be interested to here your own personal response Charles to this particular question of yours since I have struggled with it myself. God must have had divine foreknowledge of all Lucifer would do before He created him, so why do you think He created him? I don’t have the answer. Have you any ideas or come across readings on this particular question?

God Bless!

 

[tonyfran]

I would be interested to here your own personal response Charles to this particular question of yours since I have struggled with it myself. God must have had divine foreknowledge of all Lucifer would do before He created him, so why do you think He created him? I don’t have the answer. Have you any ideas or come across readings on this particular question?

God Bless!

God did not have to create Lucifer or Satan or Devil.
The Devil is the logical result or corollory of God’s existence.
If GOD is Light, the DEVIL is Absense of LIGHT (Darkness)

What GOD is, is what Devil is not.
If GOD is TRUTH, DEVIL is LIE.
If you believe the DEVIL, you are believing LIES.

A lie exists only in relation to a Truth. You cannot lie if there is nothing to lie about.

If GOD is LOVE, DEVIL is HATRED

If GOD is KNOWLEDGE, DEVIL is IGNORANCE.

If GOD is LIFE, DEVIL is DEATH.

If GOD creates, DEVIL destroys.

If GOD increases ORDER, Devil creates dis-order and CHAOS.

DEVIL exists only because GOD exists, and not vice versa.
So the Devil will never be able to kill GOD.
Like darkness cannot exist where there is light, Devil can never be where GOD is, but GOD can go where Devil is, and the Devil will have to flee from those places.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Kyiv,

6. Why did God create Lucifer in the first place?
*I would be interested to here your own personal response Charles to this particular question of yours since I have struggled with it myself. God must have had divine foreknowledge of all Lucifer would do before He created him, so why do you think He created him? *

I am just speculating here, since there is nothing in Scripture to help us know the mind of God regarding the creation of Lucifer.

I suspect that God created Lucifer knowing he would fall for the same reason he created Adam and Eve, knowing they would fall. If it’s true that He created us in His image, as Genesis tells us, then since human beings are dramatists, God must be the first and greatest Dramatist. But drama requires heroes and villains. Ergo, Michael and Lucifer set the plot in motion… Ergo, Satan and Eve complicate matters. Ergo the temptations of Christ by the Devil. Ergo, the climax on the cross. Ergo the denoument and joyful ending by His resurrection. As Shakespeare might have put it, “All’s well that ends well!”

Behind all of this, however, is the principle of free will. The tragedy of any fall from grace is that we exercised our will freely. God does not force us to turn against Him, as did Lucifer and Adam and Eve. Yet he knows that they will; and so he has made his principal villains, to be followed by heroes throughout history. The battle begins. We are assured how it will end, the final victory of good over evil. But we are still free to choose evil, because God has given the Devil freedom to lure us into the pit, yet he has given us the grace and freedom to overcome the Devil.

Everything turns on temptation, grace, and free will. God’s plot thickens!

Just a speculation, nothing more.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Christ refers to Satan as the Father of Lies and a murderer. Satan’s principal victim is truth. He murders Truth on the Cross. But Truth, as always, will not stay buried. Our lies are buried with us. But the truth about us, our good or our evil, is remembered.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

C.S. Lewis: “Like a good chess player, Satan is always trying to manoeuvre you into a position where you can save your castle only by losing your bishop.”