Saturday Sabbath

[chrisb]

The sabbatarian reasoning is unforunately understandable from their limited resource “The Bible - without Holy Tradition”. The reason is quite simply, really. Sabbatarians look at the Ten Commandments and see no other choice but to worship on Saturday:

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it (Exodus 20:8-11).

From the heights of Mt. Sinai, God commanded that the seventh day be kept as a holy day of rest, commemorating His creation of the world. What’s more, sabbatarians are absolutely correct when they teach that changes to the calender - including the change from the Julian calender to the Gregorian - never altered the order of the days of the week. Saturday is, and always has been, the seventh day. So the question is raised ‘why don’t all Christians worship on it?’

If we ask our adventist friends, the answer we get is:

In the early part of the fourth century the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. The day of the sun was reverenced by his pagan subjects and was honored by Christians… He was urged to do this by the bishops of the church, who, inspired by ambition and thirst for power, perceived that if the same day was observed by both Christians and heathen, it would… advance the power and glory of the church. But while many God-fearing Christians were gradually lead to regard Sunday as possessing a degree of sacredness, they still held the true Sabbath as the holy of the Lord and observed it in obedience to the fourth commandment (Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, p. 53).

According to sabbatarians, the Church made the State’s “betrayal” of the Sabbath official at the Council of Laodicea (343-381). Canon XXIX of the Council states that “Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the Lord’s Day.”

Their conviction that Sunday worship is the fourth-century invention of an apostate church, and that the first Christians worshiped on Saturday, also leads sabbatarians to interpret certain New Testament passages in unique ways. Take, for instance, Colossians 2:16-17: “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”

Most Christians take St. Paul to mean that we no longer have an obligation to worship on the seventh-day Sabbath. But sabbatarians insist that the Apostle cannot be talking about the weekly Sabbath here. He must be speaking of Jewish “high Sabbaths” - special holy days like Passover or the Day of Atonement.

Another passage that frequently comes up in Sabbath-versus-Sunday discussions is St. John’s reference to being in the Spirit on “the Lord’s Day” (Revelation 1:10). Most Christians interpret “the Lord’s Day” as the day on which He rose from the dead - that is, Sunday. But sabbatarians maintain that “the Lord’s Day” refers to the Sabbath. They cite Matthew 12:8 - “the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath” - as grounds for their interpretation.

I ultimately disagree because I believe these sabbatarian arguments are founded upon serious misinterpretations of history and of the Scriptures.

Let us first investigate the already-mentioned passage in Colossians:

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, bt the substance is of Christ (Colossians 2:16, 17, italics mine).

As I said, sabbatarians argue that St. Paul refers here to special festal Sabbaths, and not to the weekly Saturday Sabbath. But when this scripture is allowed to speak for itself, one can only conclude that St. Paul is telling the Colossians that they no longer must worship on Saturday.

Why do I say that? First of all, there is the natural logic of the text. St. Paul first mentions “festivals,” which are yearly. Then he speaks of "new moons, which are monthly. The next logical step is his discourse would be something occurring weekly - like the Saturday Sabbath.

Secondly, the Greek word for “sabbaths” in this text is sabbaton. As I said, sabbatarians insist that this word refers to Jewish “high Sabbaths.” But when you look up all the New Testament instances of the word sabbaton, you discover that in every case, it refers to the weekly Sabbath.

There is yet a third way that the text makes reference to the Saturday Sabbath. Suppose we ask, “What are these ‘festivals’ of which St. Paul speaks?” To answer that question from the Scriptures, we must turn to Leviticus 23. In this passage, God delineates for Moses all His holy feasts. He speaks of the Passover, the Feast of Firstfruits, the Feast of Weeks, the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles. But the very first festival mentioned in this chapter - the first on the list of feasts - is the weekly Sabbath (Leviticus 23:3).

 

[chrisb]

So in reality, there seems to be no way that Colossians 1:16, 17 can be understood as not referring to the Saturday Sabbath. St. Paul’s teaching on the matter is plain. The weekly Sabbath, along with other Old Testament holy days, is a “shadow” of something greater and more real - Christ. As we have seen in my earlier post, the historical record also shows that the early Christians entered into the deeper reality of Christ by worshiping on Sunday.

 

[Bob1]

Try Thread 32

 

[chrisb]

Try Thread 32

As St. Ignatius said so pointedly:

"If, therefore, they who were under the older dispensation came into a new hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord’s day, on which day also our life rose through him and through his death,… how shall we be able to live apart from him, of whom even the prophets were disciples, and waited for him in the spirit as their teacher? (St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter IX, italics mine).

I don’t see any room for your hermeneutic to affirm the opposite. They “no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord’s day” is pretty clear to me.

There is other evidence which refutes the sabbatarian argument that this change from Sabbath worship to Sunday worship happened in the fourth century. Every step of the way I can’t find any historical evidence to add weight to the sabbatarian position. I hear a lot of rhetoric and a lot of proof-texting but we see a lot of that kind of thing everywhere. Ultimately I try to ‘test-everything’. I can appreciate that, for you, the Scriptural argument adds up to Sabbath worship but I must take you to task when you begin to distort history for the sake of your argument. History is against you here as well as History. Personally, I don’t hold any animosity toward sabbatarians but I don’t believe their arguments hold up to scrutiny.

That said I would hope that Saturday worship would not be rejected by the Most High God if such was ultimately done out of innocent error but when one attempts to distort history and reason I wonder how innocent one is? You might say that you don’t give a heck what sabbatarians say but you are being naive if you don’t admit that it is these arguments which serve to filter your interpretation (hermeneutic) of the Biblical Testimony. I can see the classic sabbatarian apologetic running through your posts.

We know, through St. Ignatius, that prior to the fourth century the Christian community held the Lord’s day apart from the Jewish Sabbath that is simply a clear historical fact which completely refutes the sabbatarian argument proposed in ‘The Great Controversy’ by Ellen White. So, using the classic sabbatarian hermeneutic doesn’t seem to hold much water in the debate. I understand you can turn your attention to attack the historic record to sow doubt as to their legitimacy but then we both stand in the realm of opposing hermeneutics with the vast weight of historical practice against you. Are we to then make this leap on nothing but our distrust of the Gentile Church? I would argue that such a leap is against reason… i.e. it doesn’t seem rational. It seems desperate and even reactionary.

 

[chrisb]

So what, ultimately, do sabbatarians need to understand here? What do they need to see, in order to avoid historical misunderstandings and scriptureal misinterpretations? Like the early Christians, sabbatarians must come to recognize that the Incarnation, life, death, and Resurrection of Christ opened a new way to God for us. They need to accept that the ways of God’s Old Coventant - including the Sabbath worship - have been surpassed in the new Kingdom of Grace.

Of course, even one who accepts the fact that the Church has always worshiped on Sunday may still ask, “Why did the Church make that change? How could it set aside the Fourth Commandment like that?” To answer those questions, one must look to the teachings of the ancient Church - the Church that opened its doors on the Day of Pentecost and has preserved the teachings of the Apostles unaltered ever since.

In examining those teachings, the sabbatarian will discover something he may find quite surprising: According to the ancient Church, Saturday is the Sabbath! The Sabbath was never “changed” from Saturday to Sunday, as some Christians mistakenly claim. For two thousand years, the Church has recognized Saturday as a holy day that commemorate God’s resting after the creation of the world. The Church also reveres Saturday as the day on which Christ descended into hell, shattering its gates and freeing mankind forever from the bonds of death.

Now, as the Council of Laodicea’s pronouncement indicates, the Church has never observed the Sabbath in a Jewish manner - with things like mandatory resting from work and travel restrictions. But the Sabbath is a day on which special services and liturgical practices has historically been observed.

In fact, I’ve heard sabbatarians quote historical claims that Christians of later centuries continued to keep the Sabbath. But they misunderstand these texts, because they do not recognize that the honor the ancient Church gives to the Sabbath has always been secondary to it sreverence for Sunday. For while the Church believes that the Sabbath is holy, and the creation it commemorates is awesome, it understands that both have been infinitely superseded in the coming of the Son of God to earth.

The New Testament tells us that this creation in which we live, the one that God spent six days creating, will not last. St. John declares, “Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away” (Revelation 21:1).

Many aspects of the old creation have already disappeared. For instance, St. Paul assures us that “if anyone is in Christ,* he is* a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17). For those who believe in Jesus Christ, death - an inescapable feature of the old creation - has been “abolished” (2 Timothy 1:10).

So the new creation has already burst forth into existence. When did this begin to unfold? On the day of Christ’s glorious Resurrection! One that day, God established the foundations of this new world that includes eternal life for mankind. Rising in the flesh, Christ our God made possible our eternal union with Him. By the power of His Resurrection, man is blessed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and may live in oneness with the Father under the earnest of new heavens and a new earth.

Now, the old creation was commemorated on Saturday, the day of its ending. But the new creation will never pass away. Thus, it can only be commemorated on the day on which it begins. As St. Athanasius (fourth century) writes,

The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord’s day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old; in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord’s day as being the memorial of the new creation (On Sabbath and Circumcision, 3).

This is why the ancient Church often refers to Sunday as the “eighth day.” As the day of Resurrection, Sunday becomes the doorway through which we pass beyond this temporal and fading realm - this universe that operates on the seven-day cycle that the Sabbath remembers - into God’s eternal day.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

AD 90: “One the Lord’s own day gather together and break bread and give thanks.” Didache, 14:1

AD 107: *“Let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days.” *St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter IX

AD 130: *“Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me… Wherefore, we keep… the day… on which Jesus rose again from the dead.” *Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter XV

AD 160: *“There is no other thing for which you blame us, my friends [speaking to the Jews], is there than this? That we do not live according to the Law, nor… do we observe the Sabbath as you do.”

“For we to would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you - namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts.”

“But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented on the sins which they have committed, they shall received the inheritanc… although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumised, nor observe the feasts.”* St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue wit Trypho, Chapters X, XVIII, and XXVI.
**
AD 190:** “He, fulfillment of the precept, according to the Gospel, keeps the Lord’s day… glorifying the Lord’s resurrection in himself.” Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVII

AD 197: “For we solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath.” Tertullian, Apology, Chapter 16

The truth is, there is not a single historical text that speaks of Christians observing the Sabbath as their primary day of worship.

So, despite sabbatarian claims to the contrary, it is an unavoidable historical fact that Sunday was established as the highest and holiest of days long before the councils and proclamations of the fourth century. It was observed by the very first Christians and by all succeeding generations. In the end, the only way sabbatarians can really refute the historical evidence that Sunday is the God-ordained day of Christian worship is to accuse the early Christians - including the very first Christians - of apostasy.

Note, contrary to the SDA claims, that none of these quotes is by a Roman. St. Justin Martyr lived mostly in Caesarea which is in the Holy Land and later died in Rome.

 

[chrisb]

Note, contrary to the SDA claims, that none of these quotes is by a Roman. St. Justin Martyr lived mostly in Caesarea which is in the Holy Land and later died in Rome.

Yep and we need to also recognize that it’s not a Sabbath or Lord’s Day proposition but a Sabbath ‘and’ Lord’s Day proposition. The problem with the Western Church is that they no longer have Great Vespers on Saturdays to ‘close’ the Sabbath Observance as the Ancient Church has done from the beginning.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Yep and we need to also recognize that it’s not a Sabbath or Lord’s Day proposition but a Sabbath ‘and’ Lord’s Day proposition. The problem with the Western Church is that they no longer have Great Vespers on Saturdays to ‘close’ the Sabbath Observance as the Ancient Church has done from the beginning.

Agreed.

 

[Bob1]

As St. Ignatius said so pointedly:

"If, therefore, they who were under the older dispensation came into a new hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord’s day, on which day also our life rose through him and through his death,… how shall we be able to live apart from him, of whom even the prophets were disciples, and waited for him in the spirit as their teacher? (St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter IX, italics mine).

I don’t see any room for your hermeneutic to affirm the opposite. They “no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord’s day” is pretty clear to me.

There is other evidence which refutes the sabbatarian argument that this change from Sabbath worship to Sunday worship happened in the fourth century. Every step of the way I can’t find any historical evidence to add weight to the sabbatarian position. I hear a lot of rhetoric and a lot of proof-texting but we see a lot of that kind of thing everywhere. Ultimately I try to ‘test-everything’. I can appreciate that, for you, the Scriptural argument adds up to Sabbath worship but I must take you to task when you begin to distort history for the sake of your argument. History is against you here as well as History. Personally, I don’t hold any animosity toward sabbatarians but I don’t believe their arguments hold up to scrutiny.

That said I would hope that Saturday worship would not be rejected by the Most High God if such was ultimately done out of innocent error but when one attempts to distort history and reason I wonder how innocent one is? You might say that you don’t give a heck what sabbatarians say but you are being naive if you don’t admit that it is these arguments which serve to filter your interpretation (hermeneutic) of the Biblical Testimony. I can see the classic sabbatarian apologetic running through your posts.

We know, through St. Ignatius, that prior to the fourth century the Christian community held the Lord’s day apart from the Jewish Sabbath that is simply a clear historical fact which completely refutes the sabbatarian argument proposed in ‘The Great Controversy’ by Ellen White. So, using the classic sabbatarian hermeneutic doesn’t seem to hold much water in the debate. I understand you can turn your attention to attack the historic record to sow doubt as to their legitimacy but then we both stand in the realm of opposing hermeneutics with the vast weight of historical practice against you. Are we to then make this leap on nothing but our distrust of the Gentile Church? I would argue that such a leap is against reason… i.e. it doesn’t seem rational. It seems desperate and even reactionary.

Jesus Christ said he did not come to change the LAW and could not!!
Act 15: 5-21
James gives his Judgment on what Gentiles are required to follow in the new covenant. although he did not actually specify that they honor the Laws of Moses, he did continue to say that “For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
meaning they would already have known them.

This is what was taught at the birth of Christianity. It is recorded in the Bible.
If one is supposed to honer the 10 commandments it doesn’t mean 9 Commandments.

the apostles broke Bread on the Sunday they did not keep the Sunday Sabbath.

Just because later followers for what ever reason decided to change the day of the Sabbath some 1800 odd years ago and became church custom. Does not in any way make the Sabbath Sunday. unless you are saying the church is a higher authority than GOD Himself.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Bob,

We have tried to correct you. When you did not heed our corrections, we pointed you to the Church documents and the Fathers of the Church. What else are we to do with you?

But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

As it is written in St. Matthew 18:15-17

I plead with you to listen to your brethren and Holy Mother Church.:bighanky:

 

[chrisb]

Jesus Christ said he did not come to change the LAW and could not!!

Please read post #45 and understand that His Fulfillment of the Law brings us into a “new” Creation.

Act 15: 5-21
James gives his Judgment on what Gentiles are required to follow in the new covenant. although he did not actually specify that they honor the Laws of Moses, he did continue to say that “For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

meaning they would already have known them.

The Ancient Church closes every Saturday (.i.e. Old Creation) with Great Vespers. The Ancient Church has ‘never’ observed the Sabbath as the Lord’s Day but we do close that day with Holy Observances to make way for the “New” Creation established on the Day of Our Lord and Saviour’s Resurrection (Sunday).

This is what was taught at the birth of Christianity. It is recorded in the Bible.
If one is supposed to honer the 10 commandments it doesn’t mean 9 Commandments.

As I said before, The Ancient Church does close the Sabbath Day with Great Vespers but it is not the celebration of the “New” Creation… it is the closing of the “Old”.

the apostles broke Bread on the Sunday they did not keep the Sunday Sabbath.

Friend, there are no historical records of this novel interpretation of the Christian Tradition.

I gave you several examples of Saints who clearly make the distinction between the Sabbath and the Lord’s Day.

Just because later followers for what ever reason decided to change the day of the Sabbath some 1800 odd years ago and became church custom. Does not in any way make the Sabbath Sunday. unless you are saying the church is a higher authority than GOD Himself.

Later followers?

AD 90: “One the Lord’s own day gather together and break bread and give thanks.” Didache, 14:1

AD 107: *“Let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days.” *St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter IX

AD 130: *“Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me… Wherefore, we keep… the day… on which Jesus rose again from the dead.” *Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter XV

AD 160: *“There is no other thing for which you blame us, my friends [speaking to the Jews], is there than this? That we do not live according to the Law, nor… do we observe the Sabbath as you do.”

*These dates are of the Apostolic Fathers… What historical evidence do you offer?

 

[Bob1]

Please read post #45 and understand that His Fulfillment of the Law brings us into a “new” Creation.

The Ancient Church closes every Saturday (.i.e. Old Creation) with Great Vespers. The Ancient Church has ‘never’ observed the Sabbath as the Lord’s Day but we do close that day with Holy Observances to make way for the “New” Creation established on the Day of Our Lord and Saviour’s Resurrection (Sunday).

As I said before, The Ancient Church does close the Sabbath Day with Great Vespers but it is not the celebration of the “New” Creation… it is the closing of the “Old”.

Friend, there are no historical records of this novel interpretation of the Christian Tradition.

I gave you several examples of Saints who clearly make the distinction between the Sabbath and the Lord’s Day.

Later followers?

AD 90: “One the Lord’s own day gather together and break bread and give thanks.” Didache, 14:1

AD 107: *“Let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days.” *St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter IX

AD 130: *“Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me… Wherefore, we keep… the day… on which Jesus rose again from the dead.” *Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter XV

AD 160: *“There is no other thing for which you blame us, my friends [speaking to the Jews], is there than this? That we do not live according to the Law, nor… do we observe the Sabbath as you do.”

*These dates are of the Apostolic Fathers… What historical evidence do you offer?

1 As I already said they did.

2 Thought that was what they were already doing Breaking the bread.

3 OK 1870 years if you want to be picky

4 Admit to not keeping the Sabbath. Just about what I said.

 

[chrisb]

1 As I already said they did.

2 Thought that was what they were already doing Breaking the bread.

3 OK 1870 years if you want to be picky

4 Admit to not keeping the Sabbath. Just about what I said.

So you believe that before the Gospel of St. John the Theologian was written the Church of the Living God had already apostatized itself? Seriously?

And what was their motive for this?

 

[Bob1]

So you believe that before the Gospel of St. John the Theologian was written the Church of the Living God had already apostatized itself? Seriously?

And what was their motive for this?

Why someone would want to change any of the Ten Commandments is beyond me. You would have to ask him yourself.

However if a later date were to be looked at in Constantine reign
when he changed the day of rest to Sunday. the church bowed to him and made the day of rest Sunday and encouraged its followers to work on Saturday.

So the answer to your question could be worldly pressures.

 

[chrisb]

Why someone would want to change any of the Ten Commandments is beyond me. You would have to ask him yourself.

Fortunately, it is not that we have ‘changed’ the Ten Commandments but how we observe the Sabbath and that of our Holiest of Holy Days the Lord’s Day. You and other Sabbatarians stumble on this because you fail to see the New Creation on that mystical 8th Day (the Lord’s Day) and the closing of the Seven Days of the Old. You are still in the Shadow Observance of the Old Creation.

However if a later date were to be looked at in Constantine reign when he changed the day of rest to Sunday. the church bowed to him and made the day of rest Sunday and encouraged its followers to work on Saturday.

As St. Ignatius said so pointedly:

"If, therefore, they who were under the older dispensation came into a new hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord’s day, on which day also our life rose through him and through his death,… how shall we be able to live apart from him, of whom even the prophets were disciples, and waited for him in the spirit as their teacher? (St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter IX, italics mine).

I don’t see any room for your hermeneutic to affirm the opposite. They “no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord’s day” is pretty clear to me.

St. Ignatius predates St. Constantine by hundreds of years.

So the answer to your question could be worldly pressures.

I’m not sure how St. Constantine could pressure anyone hundreds of years before his birth?

Could you explain?

 

[Bob1]

Fortunately, it is not that we have ‘changed’ the Ten Commandments but how we observe the Sabbath and that of our Holiest of Holy Days the Lord’s Day. You and other Sabbatarians stumble on this because you fail to see the New Creation on that mystical 8th Day (the Lord’s Day) and the closing of the Seven Days of the Old. You are still in the Shadow Observance of the Old Creation.

You ether Honor the Sabbath as prescribed by the lord or you don’t. or is steeling a penny ok? of course not you cannot change it to what you want

As St. Ignatius said so pointedly:

"If, therefore, they who were under the older dispensation came into a new hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord’s day, on which day also our life rose through him and through his death,… how shall we be able to live apart from him, of whom even the prophets were disciples, and waited for him in the spirit as their teacher? (St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter IX, italics mine).

I don’t see any room for your hermeneutic to affirm the opposite. They “no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord’s day” is pretty clear to me.

you can keep quoting St Ignatius and I’ll still Quote the Apostles, think the Apostles might just be nearer what Christ told them to teach and they definetly were filled with the Holy Spirit, but of course I am Probably wrong.

St. Ignatius predates St. Constantine by hundreds of years.

I’m not sure how St. Constantine could pressure anyone hundreds of years before his birth?

Could you explain?

was used as an example as to why perhaps St. Ignatius changed things, Just guessing though as I said you will have to ask him yourself .

 

[chrisb]

was used as an example as to why perhaps St. Ignatius changed things, Just guessing though as I said you will have to ask him yourself .

Knowing that St. Ignatius was on his way to be martyred by Rome I fail to see any rationale for him to yield to political pressure.

All of my historical examples predate St. Constantine so the sabbatarian argument that St. Constantine created an apostate Church seems moot. I can understand this argument in light of historical ignorance and the bias of protestant factions but historical evidence seems to clear the relevance of this fallacy.

We know, through St. Ignatius, that prior to the fourth century the Christian community held the Lord’s Day apart from the Jewish Sabbath that is simply a clear historical fact which completely refutes the sabbatarian argument proposed in ‘The Great Controversy’ by Ellen White. So, using the classic sabbatarian argument doesn’t seem to hold much water in the debate. I understand you can turn your attention to attack the historic record to sow doubt as to their legitimacy but then we both stand in the realm of opposing hermeneutics with the vast weight of historical practice against you. Are we to then make this leap on nothing but our distrust of the Gentile Church? I would argue that such a leap is against reason… i.e. it doesn’t seem rational.

 

[Bob1]

Knowing that St. Ignatius was on his way to be martyred by Rome I fail to see any rationale for him to yield to political pressure.

All of my historical examples predate St. Constantine so the sabbatarian argument that St. Constantine created an apostate Church seems moot. I can understand this argument in light of historical ignorance and the bias of protestant factions but historical evidence seems to clear the relevance of this fallacy.

We know, through St. Ignatius, that prior to the fourth century the Christian community held the Lord’s Day apart from the Jewish Sabbath that is simply a clear historical fact which completely refutes the sabbatarian argument proposed in ‘The Great Controversy’ by Ellen White. So, using the classic sabbatarian argument doesn’t seem to hold much water in the debate. I understand you can turn your attention to attack the historic record to sow doubt as to their legitimacy but then we both stand in the realm of opposing hermeneutics with the vast weight of historical practice against you. Are we to then make this leap on nothing but our distrust of the Gentile Church? I would argue that such a leap is against reason… i.e. it doesn’t seem rational.

As I said I was only guessing ask him.

Sorry didn’t realize St. Ignatius started the Catholic church. I was under the false impression given to me at mass that it was Christ and the Apostles. well you live an learn. by the way the ACTS of the apostles is also in the good book. don’t quite tally with St. Ignatius.

 

[chrisb]

As I said I was only guessing ask him.

Sorry didn’t realize St. Ignatius started the Catholic church. I was under the false impression given to me at mass that it was Christ and the Apostles. well you live an learn. by the way the ACTS of the apostles is also in the good book. don’t quite tally with St. Ignatius.

No one said St. Ignatius ‘started’ the Church. If you reread my post I said “We know, through St. Ignatius, that prior to the fourth century the Christian community held the Lord’s Day apart from the Jewish Sabbath that is simply a clear historical fact which completely refutes the sabbatarian argument proposed in ‘The Great Controversy’ by Ellen White.”

He stands as evidence of how the Christian community lived the Faith in his day. So we know that they no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord’s day.

If you want to attempt to proof-text some kind novel interpretation of Sabbath Observance from Scripture I can only state with assurance that such an interpretation has no continuity with the Life of the Church of the Living God for roughly 2000 years. Observance of the Lord’s Day wasn’t stated by St. Constantine as we have plenty of evidence throughout the history of the Church observing the Lord’s Day apart from the Sabbath. If that doesn’t dissuade you from such an interpretation then you’ll just have observe the Sabbath with sabbatarians and hope for the best.

 

[Bob1]

No one said St. Ignatius ‘started’ the Church. If you reread my post I said “We know, through St. Ignatius, that prior to the fourth century the Christian community held the Lord’s Day apart from the Jewish Sabbath that is simply a clear historical fact which completely refutes the sabbatarian argument proposed in ‘The Great Controversy’ by Ellen White.”

He stands as evidence of how the Christian community lived the Faith in his day. So we know that they no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord’s day.

If you want to attempt to proof-text some kind novel interpretation of Sabbath Observance from Scripture I can only state with assurance that such an interpretation has no continuity with the Life of the Church of the Living God for roughly 2000 years. Observance of the Lord’s Day wasn’t stated by St. Constantine as we have plenty of evidence throughout the history of the Church observing the Lord’s Day apart from the Sabbath. If that doesn’t dissuade you from such an interpretation then you’ll just have observe the Sabbath with sabbatarians and hope for the best.

I will agree Emperor Constantine did not change the day of the Sabbath. He changed the day of rest, he did not like Jews. he became a Christian some time later. But some of the Christians still honored the Sabbath at that time.

In this day and age we have MANY murderers, thieves and Vagabonds, to which the laws of the land are dwindling, in a thousand years time it will probable be the norm, and no laws. Will this be right.
If Church goers slowly dwindled so that they only went to Christmas Mass once a year, would this be the new church tradition. while this be right?

Just because man decides something is inconvenient for what ever reason doesn’t make it right.

Our Lord spelled that out very clearly to the Jews.