Saudi Child Bride Turned Back Over to 80-Year-Old Husband

[Steven_John]

This “thighing” issue or whatever you want to call it, based on your search you claim that mohamad did this act but **YOU **cannot support their claim.
.

You echo me so well and even in bold. Do you have a problem with me being honest or asking others for help?

The majority of internet sites have the ability and function to email them.

Since you cannot support their claim, ask them about the “claim” they are making.

This is great advice and when and if i get the response we can share more but i was asking the person here who made the claim as if it was theirs, you may have missed it but they have clarified things.

It is not about whether he did or he did not it was about helping my brother articulate it as the muftis claim rather than bearing this statement on his lips.
In hind sight you have probably missed this as we started this discussion in a pm, sorry to you.

Whether you believe or not islamic experts believe it to be:

I think your stamen t imply i should accept them as a religious authority
Well i dont.
I dont even accept them as and Islamic religion authority.
Islamic religion is much divided as too is Jews and Christians.

Now as for the hadiths this is more of what i was seeking.
You state well in your wording of suggests.

Much the same way as i posed my question to the OP.

The fact to my original post/story still stands. Here is an 80 year old prune who married a child of 10.

The prophet of islam, a so called prophet of allah, married little Aishia when he was 53 when he already had a few wives.

If you don’t have a problem with that, well then that’s your business. A fact is a fact.

The very fact that you suggest i may not have a problem with it tells me you did not read what i posted on this.

I see this as a thread that will really show our true colours,

Matthew 7

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 So by their fruits you will know them.

Thanks be to YHWH for this His fruit is truth.

 

[Steven_John]

They have shown that they believe that such accusations against Mohammad regarding his relationship with Aisha are inaccurate

While the seeking of the truth is the best thing I am personally glad Muslims here have a heart to deny these things. I would have more concern if they rejoiced in them.

As to ancient cultures taking child brides at school we were taught this.

As to Christians doing it i dont know. Jewish culture i think did, i think there was a man very old in his days being given a young girl to keep him warm in the bible. I am not stating she was under 21 but suggest she might have been.

Curiously how young is to young? I am dad to a 21yo and a 14yo neither seems old enough to me.

 

[Jay53]

No in fairness i asked you because you original offered it as if it were from your mouth. I accept you have now changed your claim.

They say "based upon daleel (proof) in addition to the daleel from the Sunnah being from authentic ahaadeeth. " but they do not offer the proof nore has any of us found it.

Brother Jay, how do you take council from this committee and take their position on this issue and not others??

Do you also take their other teachings as true??

Your highlighting committee appears to attempt justifying belief in their words Yahooshua (pbwh) stood alone, i mean alone in his last days in the flesh. this did not make the committees right and him wrong.

How is it you do in one case but not the other?

I think you dont really trust these men.

Brother its a no brainier.

Father do not let the sin of pride cloud between us Brothers make us humble inviting you to speak through us here and always.

Steven John,

We are definitely not on the same page as I am having a hard time understanding you. I realize that you don’t seem to like the idea of “thighing” or ascribing such behaviors to Muhammad, but you seem to be taking issue with me and not the behavior. As I don’t believe Muhammad is a prophet in any way, shape or form I have no such issue. I honestly don’t wish to even debate with you about this any more. My issue with you was simply because you accused me of “bearing false witness” when I did not. I simply did not provide the source of my contention in my earlier post. You may choose to believe this committee or not. It honestly makes absolutely no difference to me.

I am sorry that you misunderstood my previous post where I did not cite the source, but you keep harping on that fact as if I was trying to make this mufti’s words my own. That was not my intention. I corrected that and gave you the source and yet you still keep harping on it.

Truthfully, I don’t even really care if Muhammad did this or not - what I care about is what Muslims believe they are able to do to little girls based on Muhammad’s life and actions.

The issue and topic at hand is this 10 year old girl who is being forced to return to an 80 year old husband who believes he has every right to have sexual intercourse with her under Sharia Law. Where is the outrage over what this little girl is having to endure?

 

[Steven_John]

Bless you Jay, pray well and stay well

 

[dianaiad]

Can you give me some examples of child marriages within Christianity wherein the child was nine I’d like to hear of them? Furthermore, I find your arguments disingenious as I sense you’re trying to come to the defence of Mohammed only because your own prophet wasn’t holy in character either.

p.s. Islam/Muslims do not believe that Mohammed was flawed, in fact, they use him as a model Muslim and someone they should mimic.

Wow, way to bring up the fallacy, Josie. In fact, you just gave us an example of 'circumstantial ad hominem," which states that

1. Person A makes claim X (I claim that we should judge Mohammad by the standards of his time, not ours, and that attacking Muslims because of this is unwise and counter productive.
2. Person B asserts that person A makes claim X because it is in A’s interest to claim X (You assert that the only reason that I am saying this is because Joseph Smith is flawed…which, by the way, is begging the question; wow, a fallacy within a fallacy; way to go!)
3. Therefore claim X is false (and we should not judge Mohammad by the standards of his time, and attacking modern Muslims because of it is going to make them convert to Christianity in droves)

The thing is, I’ve never claimed that Joseph Smith was perfect. Far from it. Doesn’t make him less of a prophet, though, any more than Peter’s cowardice, lying and bad temper disqualifies him, or Paul’s admitted zealotry disqualified him…or Thomas’ lack of faith messed him up.

then of course there was Abraham…liar, adulterer…
Isaac, clueless father and not in control of his kids,
Moses, murderer, pride…
Jonah (probably my favorite OT prophet) rebellious, stubborn, vindictive…
We could keep going.

But you asked for such marriages in Christianity. OK…in 1396 Richard the II was married to Isabel of France. She was 8. In one case that didn’t quite come off, Agnes and her new husband, Simon de Bergh, were “appointed guardians of little Agnes,” attempted to marry said Agnes to an 11 year old neighbor. wee Agnes was 8 months old. Note; 8 months, not 8 years.

Agnes of France was 12 years old when she married Andronicus Comnenus, Emperor of Byzantium. It was her second marriage; she was a widow.

Joan of the Tower: born 5 July, 1321, Tower of London, England
Married to David II Bruce, King of Scotland, 17 July, 1328.
She was just turned 7 years.

Eleanor of Castile, born about 1244
Married to Edward I (Longshanks) King of England, 1254.
That would make her 10 years old.

Margaret, born 29 Sept. 1240
Married to Alexander II, King of Scotland, 26 Dec. 1251
She was 11.

That’s just the royalty. There are many examples of such marriages made for dynastic and other reasons among lesser nobility, and the peasant class did it, as well.

The idea was; the marriage would take place, but would not be consummated until the girl began menstruating, which could happen anytime between the ages of 9 or 10 up to 14 or 15.

I have NO idea whether Mohammad waited until Aisha began menstruating. However, the fact that he waited that long indicates…probably so. In which case, as ‘ewww’ as we find the idea now (and rightfully so…) it does not indicate a huge departure from the culture and more’s of the time, and it is THOSE standards by which we must judge, not those of today.

More to be criticized is that some Muslims want to impose the standards of Mohammad’s day upon us now.

 

[Jay53]

Bless you Jay, pray well and stay well

And you as well.

 

[Steven_John]

Islam/Muslims do not believe that Mohammed was flawed, in fact, they use him as a model Muslim and someone they should mimic.

I have heard this said by many muslims that he is perfect.

I am not scholar so challenge away but i reckon in Quran he prays for forgive sins past and future.

I think and it is my opinion from experience the truth of the statement made would be more like he is their perfect model of a man, who they should be like taking into account the cultural history.

Muslims i know, to my knowledge would not give their young daughters over nor take young daughters of others.

I could not help but ponder our daughters in western society have sex and even get knocked up out side of marriage at very young ages.

I know many parents who teach their daughters younger than 21 even younger than 16 about condoms, the pill etc. We even allow our school systems to degrade our kids this way.

My understanding is my doctor can put my 16 yo on the pill and other than the bill it is none of my business.

We aint doing so good we just want to do good.

My first wife is ten years my younger, no i did not meet her when she was a minor. Ten years is a big gap, some people i know were like “oh good on ya mate” it hurt me as it was not like that.

YHWH joined us nothing sick like their minds.

I am sure YHWH had us meet at the right time but when we were younger did YHWH know we were to be together. I assume so.

Now from most of the posts here i guess we agree that in other or old time cultures people were married of young.

If my wife and i were in a culture like that she would have been married of sooner.

would YHWH have had me marry her when she was only 16, 15, 14, 13? all sounds pretty yuk 2 me, but if i said no another would have said yes and i would not be joined to the one YHWH wanted.

Is it better our daughters marry young or play around?

well obviously we would say no they need to obtain and marry at (?) years of age.

seems our culture is ahead of Saudi culture and we are both outside of truth.

Seriously trust my YHWH we need to pray for this 10 yo girl, He will answer and if we are open and scrupulously honest in our discussion we will be b4 Him in the way of Yahooshua.

 

[josie_L]

Wow, way to bring up the fallacy, Josie. In fact, you just gave us an example of 'circumstantial ad hominem," which states that

1. Person A makes claim X (I claim that we should judge Mohammad by the standards of his time, not ours, and that attacking Muslims because of this is unwise and counter productive.
2. Person B asserts that person A makes claim X because it is in A’s interest to claim X (You assert that the only reason that I am saying this is because Joseph Smith is flawed…which, by the way, is begging the question; wow, a fallacy within a fallacy; way to go!)
3. Therefore claim X is false (and we should not judge Mohammad by the standards of his time, and attacking modern Muslims because of it is going to make them convert to Christianity in droves)

The thing is, I’ve never claimed that Joseph Smith was perfect. Far from it. Doesn’t make him less of a prophet, though, any more than Peter’s cowardice, lying and bad temper disqualifies him, or Paul’s admitted zealotry disqualified him…or Thomas’ lack of faith messed him up.

then of course there was Abraham…liar, adulterer…
Isaac, clueless father and not in control of his kids,
Moses, murderer, pride…
Jonah (probably my favorite OT prophet) rebellious, stubborn, vindictive…
We could keep going.

But you asked for such marriages in Christianity. OK…in 1396 Richard the II was married to Isabel of France. She was 8. In one case that didn’t quite come off, Agnes and her new husband, Simon de Bergh, were “appointed guardians of little Agnes,” attempted to marry said Agnes to an 11 year old neighbor. wee Agnes was 8 months old. Note; 8 months, not 8 years.

Agnes of France was 12 years old when she married Andronicus Comnenus, Emperor of Byzantium. It was her second marriage; she was a widow.

Joan of the Tower: born 5 July, 1321, Tower of London, England
Married to David II Bruce, King of Scotland, 17 July, 1328.
She was just turned 7 years.

Eleanor of Castile, born about 1244
Married to Edward I (Longshanks) King of England, 1254.
That would make her 10 years old.

Margaret, born 29 Sept. 1240
Married to Alexander II, King of Scotland, 26 Dec. 1251
She was 11.

That’s just the royalty. There are many examples of such marriages made for dynastic and other reasons among lesser nobility, and the peasant class did it, as well.

The idea was; the marriage would take place, but would not be consummated until the girl began menstruating, which could happen anytime between the ages of 9 or 10 up to 14 or 15.

I have NO idea whether Mohammad waited until Aisha began menstruating. However, the fact that he waited that long indicates…probably so. In which case, as ‘ewww’ as we find the idea now (and rightfully so…) it does not indicate a huge departure from the culture and more’s of the time, and it is THOSE standards by which we must judge, not those of today.

More to be criticized is that some Muslims want to impose the standards of Mohammad’s day upon us now.

“In the sixth century AD, the Justinian code placed some limits on who could marry. A girl could not be betrothed before she was seven years old and could not marry until she was 12. Close relatives could not marry. Christians and Jews could not inter-marry. Senators could not marry commoners.”

en.allexperts.com/q/General-History-674/History-civil-marriage.htm

“Later Rabbinic sources tell us that Jewish girls could be betrothed as early as 12 years and a day or any time after the age of twelve and a half.”

“The actual marriage involved two stages. First of all there was the betrothal and then - after an interval of several months, perhaps a year - the young girl would have been taken to the house of her husband to be and at that moment, once they started to live together, they were considered properly married.”

bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/virginmary_2.shtml

Also, the Frankish King (pretty much ruler of all of Europe at the time) Charlemagne in the 8th century placed restrictions that no person could marry their children off at an age earlier than 13 which was considered the age of tanakh (i.e, puberty). This indicates that prior and post Mohammed we see restrictions imposed by society in regards to making sure that a young woman or man could not be married (in the full sense of the word) before the age of 12.

Furthermore, you failed to mention that Edward Longshanks was 15 when he married Eleanor who was 10, or that David II of Scotland was 4 when he married Joan of the Tower who was 7 (obviously these were marriages in name only until they both reached the age of Tanakh, 13) and Alexander II was 16 or thereabouts when he married Margaret who was 12. This is a far cry from a man, a prophet of God who was 53 or 56 years of age when he married Aisha (who by the way had an older sister already past 12 years of age who he could have chosen to marry) who was nine.

Moreover, the prophets in the OT may have done some unsavory things but they redeemed themselves thereafter, I can’t the say the same for other “prophets”.

 

[elwill]

Are you saying that “The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa” is actually anti-Islamic? I will look at their site better, but I really didn’t get that impression. Just because islam-watch may not be pro-Islam does not mean that they do not have valid information.

no i didn’t mean that permanent committee for islamic is anti_islamic . i think they misquoted the fatwa if it was exist in the first place
i just wonder , if you think that islam watch site have valid informations about muslims beliefs , then why it’s not exist in sites of muslims themselfs !!!

whether this site have valid information or not for you , it’s not valid for muslims , so study the islam from it as you like but not blaming muslims for knowledge of it , as for it’s not the same knowledge which actual muslims have

And, btw, I was having a rational discussion until I was accused of “bearing false witness” because I failed to include my source in my post.

although , i think that you are very rational person but i insist that islam-watch site is invalid witness

Edit:
I just briefly looked at the site (The Permanent Committee’s site) again and I honestly don’t see anything anti-Islamic. Here is a snippet of the biography of the current head of the committee:

excellent
as a first step for our discussion give me the fatwa from their site directly instead of second hand writing of islam-watch

another request
can you give me a single reference from a Hadith of Prophet Muhammad that Aisha did indeed get “thighed” ? as for if all the world told me that mohammed (pbuh) thighed aisha while no proofs, references or hadeeth are exist , then i will ignore their allegations

Now, I don’t know if I can search their site to find when the fatwa/ruling in question was issued, but when I have time I will give it a gander.

take your time

 

[elwill]

If a child of 9 years of age is playing with a doll whether here and now or there and then connotes that the child is not mature enough to being having consensual sex, Mohammed being a man of God, a prophet, should have waited longer to consecrate the marriage, in my humble opinion. Moreover, child brides in Islam is a direct result of Mohammed’s actions centuries ago; they do not see anything wrong with what Mohammed did because he is an example of holiness that many Muslims strive to follow.

Since GOD Almighty enabled females in Aisha’s age to get pregnant, as it happened even in our world today , then why can’t her age be the minimum age for marriage

Aisha’s parents were the ones who married her to our Prophet, and that no Muslim or even pagan objected to the marriage because it was widely practiced.

So to call Prophet Muhammad a pedophile for marrying a girl that was OFFERED TO HIM by her parents and was accepted by all of the people back then including the enemies of Islam, the pagans, is quite absurd.

It is important to know that girls during the Biblical and Islamic days used to be married off at young ages when they either had their first periods, or their breasts start showing off. In other words, when they turn into “women”, then they get married off.

The age of sexual consent is still quite low in many places. In Japan, people can legally have sex at age 13, and in Spain they can legally have sex at age 12. (This data comes from the Age of Consent chart, which you can see at: ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm)

In the USA last century, the age of consent was 10 years old. California was the first state to change the age of consent to 14, which it did in 1889. After California, other US states joined in and raised the age of consent too.
(Source: ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm)

 

[Jolly_Joe]

So is it the custom today for young children to be married against their wishes?

If not, please explain why this marriage of an unwillng girl is permitted.

 

[dianaiad]

“In the sixth century AD, the Justinian code placed some limits on who could marry. A girl could not be betrothed before she was seven years old and could not marry until she was 12. Close relatives could not marry. Christians and Jews could not inter-marry. Senators could not marry commoners.”

en.allexperts.com/q/General-History-674/History-civil-marriage.htm

“Later Rabbinic sources tell us that Jewish girls could be betrothed as early as 12 years and a day or any time after the age of twelve and a half.”

“The actual marriage involved two stages. First of all there was the betrothal and then - after an interval of several months, perhaps a year - the young girl would have been taken to the house of her husband to be and at that moment, once they started to live together, they were considered properly married.”

bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/virginmary_2.shtml

Also, the Frankish King (pretty much ruler of all of Europe at the time) Charlemagne in the 8th century placed restrictions that no person could marry their children off at an age earlier than 13 which was considered the age of tanakh (i.e, puberty). This indicates that prior and post Mohammed we see restrictions imposed by society in regards to making sure that a young woman or man could not be married (in the full sense of the word) before the age of 12.

Furthermore, you failed to mention that Edward Longshanks was 15 when he married Eleanor who was 10, or that David II of Scotland was 4 when he married Joan of the Tower who was 7 (obviously these were marriages in name only until they both reached the age of Tanakh, 13) and Alexander II was 16 or thereabouts when he married Margaret who was 12. This is a far cry from a man, a prophet of God who was 53 or 56 years of age when he married Aisha (who by the way had an older sister already past 12 years of age who he could have chosen to marry) who was nine.

Moreover, the prophets in the OT may have done some unsavory things but they redeemed themselves thereafter, I can’t the say the same for other “prophets”.

Repeating the fallacy doesn’t make it any more valid, Josie.

Now; are you honestly telling me that a fifteen year old and a sixteen year old male were not capable of having sex with their wives?

Really?

…and Mohammad married Aisha when she was six. The marriage wasn’t consummated until she was nine.

The claim was that Mohammad was the only person who ever did this…and the question was to show examples of child marriage in Christianity.

 

[dianaiad]

So is it the custom today for young children to be married against their wishes?

It is, obviously, in some places. THIS is what we need to change. We aren’t going to change that by attacking the very foundations of their religions. We need to change those things from within their religions, and, as has been mentioned here, Islam takes a dim view of such things. IF people are paying attention to it. So…get people to pay attention to their religion, not defend it against people attacking their leader, fifteen hundred years dead.

If not, please explain why this marriage of an unwillng girl is permitted.

How about…because religion and culture may not quite be the same thing?

it should not be permitted…and if Muslim law is closely followed, it would not be. The problem is to get the law and the culture on the same page.

 

[josie_L]

Repeating the fallacy doesn’t make it any more valid, Josie.

Now; are you honestly telling me that a fifteen year old and a sixteen year old male were not capable of having sex with their wives?

Really?

…and Mohammad married Aisha when she was six. The marriage wasn’t consummated until she was nine.

The claim was that Mohammad was the only person who ever did this…and the question was to show examples of child marriage in Christianity.

But the examples you provided were not similar to what Mohammed a 50 plus year old man did to a 9 year old girl (and I repeat she was playing with dolls). Furthermore, I have provided evidence that even during Mohammed’s time there were restrictions placed on the age that a girl could get married, Jews and Christians at that time allowed for marriage only after a girl (or boy I would presume) reached 12 (that’s why I believe that the marriages you cited were more than likely marriages in name only since both parties would have to be over 12 to fulfil marital obligations).

 

[jakasaki]

Fatwa #12708

Fiqh of the family » Conditions of Marriage

**Is it acceptable to marry a girl who has not yet started her menses?
I have not yet reached the age of puberty. Is it correct that a girl could get married before her menses start, or is that just a traditional myth?. **

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

**Marriage to a young girl before she reaches puberty is permissible according to sharee’ah, and it was narrated that there was scholarly consensus on this point. **

1 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”

[al-Talaaq 65:4]

In this verse we see that Allaah states that for those who do not menstruate – because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty – the ‘iddah in the case of divorce is three months. This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry.

Al-Tabari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The interpretation of the verse “And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”. He said: The same applies to the ‘idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

Tafseer al-Tabari, 14/142

2 – It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine, and she stayed with him for nine years.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4840; Muslim, 1422.

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said:

The scholars are unanimously agreed that a father may marry off his young daughter without consulting her. The Messenger of Allaah married ‘Aa’ishah bint Abi Bakr when she was young, six or seven years old, when her father married her to him.

Al-Istidhkaar, 16/49-50.

Secondly:

The fact that it is permissible to marry a minor girl does not imply that it is permissible to have intercourse with her, rather the husband should not have intercourse with her until she becomes able for that. Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed consummating the marriage to ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her).

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

islamqa.com/en/ref/12708

 

[jakasaki]

Fatwa #1493

Fiqh of the family » Conditions of Marriage

**Ruling on marrying young women

I need to know, when did the Holy Prophet get married to Hazrat Aisha, there have been claims on newsgroups that the Holy Prophet was a pedophile. I want enough information to be able to answer such allegations.

I need to know everything about this particular marriage, quoting sources. **

Wa-alaikum

.

The answer to your question may be found in the ahaadeeth of Saheeh al-Bukhaari and the commentary of al-Haafiz al-‘Asqallaani, which are quoted below:

‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: "The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married me when I was six years old. Then we came to Madeenah and stayed in Bani al-Haarith ibn Khazraj. I fell ill and my hair started to fall out (due to the illness; then it grew back thick again). My mother Umm Roomaan came to me whilst I was on a swing and my friends were with me. She shouted for me and I came to her, not knowing what she wanted. She took me by the hand and led me to the door of the house. I was out of breath and we waited until I had calmed down, then she took some water and wiped my face and head, then took me inside. There were some women of the Ansaar in the house, and they said: " ‘Alaa al-khayri wa’l-baraka wa ‘ala khayri taa’ir (blessings, best wishes, etc)." My mother handed me over to them and they tidied me up, then suddenly the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was there. It was mid-morning, and they handed me over to him. At that time I was nine years old." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3605).

‘Urwah said: “Khadeejah died three years before the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) migrated to Madeenah. He stayed alone for two years or thereabouts, then he married ‘Aa’ishah when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3607)

The phrase “he married ‘Aa’ishah” means that the marriage contract was drawn up; the marriage was consummated later on, when she was nine.

Muslim reports from al-Zuhri, from ‘Urwah, that ‘Aa’ishah said that she was taken to him when she was nine years old, and she took her toys with her. He died when she was eighteen years old. Muslim also reports a similar account from ‘Aa’ishah via al-Aswad. He reports from ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Urwah from his father that ‘Aa’ishah said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married me in Shawwaal and consummated the marriage with me in Shawwaal.”

‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married her when she was six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, and she stayed with him for nine years." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 4738)

Al-Bukhaari calls this chapter of his Saheeh “Baab inkaah al-rajul wuldahu (or waladahu) al-sighaar (Chapter on a man marrying off his young children).” The fact that Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“. . . **and for those who have no courses [periods] (i.e., they are still immature) **their ‘iddah is three months likewise, except in case of death] . . .” [al-Talaaq 65:4]
is an indication that it is permissible to marry girls below the age of adolescence. This is a good understanding, but the aayah makes no specific mention of either the father or the young girl. It could be said that the basic principle concerning marrying children is that it is forbidden unless there is specific evidence (daleel) to indicate otherwise. The hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah states that her father Abu Bakr married her off before the age of puberty, but there is no other evidence apart from that, so the rule applies to all other cases.

Al- Muhallab said: “[The scholars] agreed that it is permissible for a father to marry off his young virgin daughter, even though it is not usually the case to have intercourse with such a young woman.”

(The above was summarized from Fath al-Baari Sharh ‘ala Saheeh al-Bukhaari)

In summary, then, it is permitted to contract marriage with a young girl and to hand her over to her husband to stay with him before she reaches adolescence. As for consummating the marriage, this does not happen until she is physically able for it. Thus the matter becomes quite clear. Do you see anything wrong with a man living with his young wife in one house, bringing her up and teaching her, but delaying consummation until she is ready for it? We ask Allaah to show us truth and falsehood and to make each clear.

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

islamqa.com/en/ref/1493

 

[elwill]

So is it the custom today for young children to be married against their wishes?

If not, please explain why this marriage of an unwillng girl is permitted.

it’s customs in some places , but it’s not islamic
from the view of islam and from the view of allah , the marriage against the wishes of one of spouses ( whither the man , woman , young or mature ) it will be invalid marriage

and i proofed my point in post # 7 form this thread
feel wellcome if you need to address it for further questions

 

[jakasaki]

no i didn’t mean that permanent committee for islamic is anti_islamic . i think they misquoted the fatwa if it was exist in the first place
i just wonder , if you think that islam watch site have valid informations about muslims beliefs , then why it’s not exist in sites of muslims themselfs !!!

whether this site have valid information or not for you , it’s not valid for muslims , so study the islam from it as you like but not blaming muslims for knowledge of it , as for it’s not the same knowledge which actual muslims have

although , i think that you are very rational person but i insist that islam-watch site is invalid witness

excellent
as a first step for our discussion give me the fatwa from their site directly instead of second hand writing of islam-watch

**another request
can you give me a single reference from a Hadith of Prophet Muhammad that Aisha did indeed get “thighed” **? as for if all the world told me that mohammed (pbuh) thighed aisha while no proofs, references or hadeeth are exist , then i will ignore their allegations

take your time

Elwill, you know there is no hadith with the word “thighed” in it, therefore a reference using that word cannot be given.

However, the “act” of “thighing” is in there and I already posted the fatwa issued on post #47 along with the hadiths from Aishia.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5639733&postcount=47

Whatever interpretation you use is up to you.

If this “act” did not exist or the prophet of islam did not engage in it, the fatwa expert would have said… “Heck NO… nothing like that exists!”

But the “act” does exist therefore the islamic fatwa expert goes on to explain it.

 

[dianaiad]

But the examples you provided were not similar to what Mohammed a 50 plus year old man did to a 9 year old girl (and I repeat she was playing with dolls). Furthermore, I have provided evidence that even during Mohammed’s time there were restrictions placed on the age that a girl could get married, Jews and Christians at that time allowed for marriage only after a girl (or boy I would presume) reached 12 (that’s why I believe that the marriages you cited were more than likely marriages in name only since both parties would have to be over 12 to fulfil marital obligations).

Moving the goal posts, Josie. The ‘child’ part of the marriage was about Aisha, not about Mohammad. Therefore the example is about the girls, not the guys.

…and it doesn’t matter what you claim the law allowed; the fact is, as I have just proven, child marriage HAPPENED. It happened often, and nobody had a problem with it.

C’mon, Josie, you lost this one. Learn from it. Get over it.

Concentrate on the real problem, which is child-marriage today; it’s that 10 year old in Saudi-Arabia who was returned to her husband NOW that is the problem, not Mohammad and Aisha, and going on about Mohammad and Aisha is simply playing into the hands of those who want to keep this pernicious practice going. It distracts from the issue.

Child marriage is against the law in India. It still happens. It’s against the law in Niger…it still happens. It’s against the law in most middle eastern nations that are primarily Muslim…it still happens.

Now.

And THAT is what you should be concentrating upon, not some gasping holier than thou
condemnation of a practice that was culturally accepted, and common, at the time it happened.

Whether you or I approve or not.

 

[elwill]

Elwill, you know there is no hadith with the word “thighed” in it, therefore a reference using that word cannot be given.

However, the “act” of “thighing” is in there and I already posted the fatwa issued on post #47 along with the hadiths from Aishia.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5639733&postcount=47

Whatever interpretation you use is up to you.

If this “act” did not exist or the prophet of islam did not engage in it, the fatwa expert would have said… “Heck NO… nothing like that exists!”

But the “act” does exist therefore the islamic fatwa expert goes on to explain it.

thank you jakasaki
the fatwa said
The term Mufaakhathah means to have foreplay with the wife in between her thighs.
It is reported in one narration that when the Prophet wanted to enjoy one of his wives who was in menstruation, he would put a piece of cloth on her vagina (i.e. cover it).

i have no problem with that , i think every husband from every religion can enjoy with his wife in between her tights

my request was about proofs that prophet did that with aisha while she was still 6 years old as you suggest