Saudi Marriage 'Expert' Advises Men in 'Right Way' to Beat Their Wives

[Daniel_Marsh]

I did check my sources, there are children being kidnapped by muslims for marriage, it is a fact.

BTW is this true? or was it true at one time?

In Iran the legal age for marriage is nine for girls, 14 for boys. The law has occasionally been exploited by pedophiles, who marry poor young girls from the provinces, use and then abandon them. In 2000 the Iranian Parliament voted to raise the minimum age for girls to 14, but this year, a legislative oversight body dominated by traditional clerics vetoed the move. An attempt by conservatives to abolish Yemen’s legal minimum age of 15 for girls failed, but local experts say it is rarely enforced anyway. (The onset of puberty is considered an appropriate time for a marriage to be consummated.)

time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,185647,00.html

Is there a listing of each Muslim country, and legal age of marriage online somewhere that covers the history of these legal ages?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Marriage

In Islamic Law, marriage is a contract–a social contract–as distinct from a commercial transaction. It is sometimes also termed a ‘civil contract’ between a single man and a single woman of sound mind who have attained puberty. (1) These contracts must be understood by the parties in order to ensure that the marriage has been performed in the proper manner and the rightful effects of the marriage are granted to each of the participating partners. Also, it is considered best if the contract is executed in spoken form. (2) However, due to need or necessity, it may be done through writing or signing.

In Islam, marriage involves sharing between the two halves of society. Its objectives, besides perpetuating human life, are emotional well-being and spiritual harmony. Its bases are love and mercy. It also indicates legalization of sexual intercourse, and provides a license to produce children. Therefore, in Islam extra-marital sexual relations are prohibited, let alone reproduction. According to Shia law marriage in Islam can be of two kinds: first, marriage through a regular contract which is called “permanent”, and second muta marriage–a non-permanent marriage for a fixed term. (3) Muta is distinguished from regular, permanent marriage on the basis of its nature. As it is temporary it does not reflect any far-reaching consequences. For example, Muta marriage does not create mutual rights of inheritance between the man and the woman, but children conceived while it exists are legitimate and capable of inheriting from both parents. All that is needed for Muta is a valid contract with a mention of the specified period accompanied by a fixed amount of dower. What is also important to note is that for a valid Muta two witnesses are required as is also required for the permanent marriage. In the remainder of the paper, I illustrate some basic existing elements of Muslim regular marriage, rather than Muta that discriminate against women in Bangladesh.

The legal effects of marriage depend on the validity of marriage. For example, a marriage can be classified as sahi (full valid), fasid (irregular) or batil (void). There are no legal consequences for a batil or void marriage since according to Islamic law, it is not a marriage at all. Limited legal consequences are, however, found in an irregular or fasid marriage.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Limitation on Age

As earlier stated, the marriage agreement is a contract between two persons beating sound mind. Since the idea of ‘sound mind’ is quite broad, in order to avoid any confusion it only excludes “insane” or “lunatic” from the contract of marriage.

Attaining puberty is very important for a marriage contract. It demonstrates that parties to the contract are mature enough to independently express their consent. It is, however, confusing as to when one gets puberty. There are many dissenting opinions on this issue among the different schools of thought. Under Muslim Law a child becomes an adult upon attaining puberty which varies with gender. An average female child ceases to be a child upon attaining puberty at the age of 12 years and an average male child on reaching 15 to 16 years of age. According to the Hanafi school a girl attains her puberty at the age of 15, which in other schools are even lower. The Hanafi school, nevertheless, does not rule out a marriage contract written before the age of 15. But in that case the girl has the right to repudiate the marriage once she attains puberty. In this case the marriage contract is arranged by their guardians.

According to prevailing laws puberty is determined on the basis of one’s attaining majority. As a matter of fact, the term puberty is no longer relevant. What is relevant for a marriage contract is whether one has crossed the age of minority. Laws regarding majority were enacted at different times and in response to different situations. The concept of minor or child has, thus, been given varied definitions by different acts and statutes in force in Bangladesh. The Bangladesh Majority Act of 1875 defines a person below the age of 18 years to be a child. The Guardians and Wards Act of 1890 states that if a child is made a ward of court then he/she will remain a ward until 21 years, thus defining him/her as a child up to that age. The Children (Pledging of Labor) Act of 1933 regards a person below the age of 15 years as being a child. The Bengal Vagrancy Act 1943 considers a person below the age of 14 years as a child. The Factories Act of 1965 defines a child as a person who has not completed 16 years of age. The Children Act of 1974 states that a child is a person below the age of 16 years. The legal system in the country also makes a distinction between boys and girls in defining a child. This is especially apparent in the Child Marriage Restraint Act of 1929. In this Act the age of majority, defined in terms of contracting a valid marriage has been placed at 21 years for boys but 18 years for girls. It does not, however, contemplate that marriage contract under that age is void. Rather such marriage is subject to the condition that the parties have right to repudiate upon attaining majority. Though a minor may be given in marriage, no minor may contract herself in marriage during her minority and any such marriage would be held to be void. (4) Where a minor has been given in marriage and marriage has been consummated before puberty such consummation does not operate to deprive the minor of the option to repudiate after puberty. (5)

Forced Marriage

Forced marriage is prohibited in Islam. It could be assumed from the discussion of previous section that age of puberty is necessary so that one can freely express his or her consent. So, Islam prohibits marriage where a woman (or man) does not have consent.

goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-675396/In-search-of-equality-marriage.html

 

[AbeOman]

Sinnped for clarity and space]

Hey Daniel, I was just wondering, why is only this link you find all these info and nothing from anywhere else…!

First, I agree with you 100% that the Prophet married our lady and mother of all believers Sayyidah Aisha (God be pleased with her) when she was 9 years old and she was six when her parents gave her hand in marriage to the prophet (PBUH).

Never-the-less, you need to understand the Prophet’s(PBUH) marriages in perspective, hence I strongly suggest that you take a look at these links. if you were really interested in truth to begin with.

iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel6.htm
submission.org/women/Aisha.html
islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html
bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/the-young-marriage-of-aishah/
islaam.ca/what-is-islam-/women-in-islam/the-young-marriage-of-aa-ishah-the-wife-of-prophet-muh-2.html

Let’ pray to God Almighty that truth seeks us and eventually we get get hold of it and never let go.

Thanks and kind regards,

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

It appears that Western chrisitan cultures are having a positive effect on those countries that at one time allowed child adult marriages. And, at least on paper “forced marriage” is outlawed. But, what is the actual practices?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Volume 9, Book 87, Number 140:
Narrated 'Aisha:

Allah’s Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, ‘Uncover (her),’ and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), ‘If this is from Allah, then it must happen.’ Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), ‘If this is from Allah, then it must happen.’ "

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen…ml#009.087.140

Sounds like Muhammad had Fantasies about her to me.

Muhammad “Pure”, ah NOT

Romans clearly teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” that includes Muhammad.

Scripture, tells us that Jesus alone is the only exection to that, for he alone is Sinless.

 

[AbeOman]

Volume 9, Book 87, Number 140:
Narrated 'Aisha:

Allah’s Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, ‘Uncover (her),’ and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), ‘If this is from Allah, then it must happen.’ Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), ‘If this is from Allah, then it must happen.’ "

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen…ml#009.087.140

Sounds like Muhammad had Fantasies about her to me.

Muhammad “Pure”, ah NOT

Romans clearly teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” that includes Muhammad.

Scripture, tells us that Jesus alone is the only exection to that, for he alone is Sinless.

I would never say anything against Jesus out of respect, love and reverence and as a good and God fearing Muslim I’m not allowed to do so however, just make sure what you claim is true and you can proof it and validate it more than just merely quoting it from link, How much does you trust this link and why is it there…? I even checked against University sitemap and could not located it.

What you say against the prophet of Islam (Peace and blessing of god be upon him) is something you have to answer to your creator and not to me. But just keep this in mind, every bad word you say against him makes me to dislike you as much and every good word you say bout him makes me to like you as much, it’s your choice,

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

AbeOman,
It’s saghiroona as in common Arabic sources like this one:
guidedways.com/search.php?keyword=saghiroona&translator=6

Muslims are asked to Qatala all those who do not believe in Allah blah blah blah except the People of the Book who pay the Jizyah with humiliation/subjugation

This means you have to qatala those People of the Book who refuse to pay the Jizyah with humiliation/subjugtion.

Qatala = fight with intention to kill.

Don’t give me Pickthall and Yusuf Ali - when I gave you that tafsirs.

Since you are too lazy to google up the tafsirs here are the links:

tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20980

altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=0&tSoraNo=1&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=no&LanguageID=2

Where do we see humiliation, subjugation or any of that e offensive stuff you are trying to push down in our throats…?
Where does the Ayah say go an kill Christians and Jews…?

Qatala = fight to kill. Check out Lane’s Lexicon.

studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

= Qaf-Ta-Lam = to kill, put to death, be accused, slay/murder/kill/slaughter, attempt to kill, render person like to one killed, to wage war/combat/battle, to master, contend/fight, deadly, knew a thing thoroughly/well, become acquainted with it.

For saghiroona = humiliation,

Literal: Fight/kill those who do not believe with God and nor the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and do not forbid/prohibit what God and His messenger forbid/prohibited, and do not take/adopt a religion the correct/right religion from those who were given/brought The Book , until they give/hand over the fee paid by non-Moslems living in a Moslem society (paid instead of Zakat by Moslems) from a hand, and (while) they are subservient/humiliated .

Qaribullah Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the Book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated.

Shakir: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

openburhan.net/ob.php?sid=9&vid=29

Of the 3 translations you supposedly gave - why did you omit Shakir? Inconvenient for you, isn’t he?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The word saghiroona also appears in 27:37.

Check out what it means:

Yusuf Ali - humbled.
Pickhtall - abased.
Shakir - abasement - until a state of ignominy
Sarwar - humbled and disgraced
Khalifa - humiliated and debased
Hilali/Khan - abased
Malik - humbled and disgraced
Maulana Ali - disgraced and abased.

Muslims are commanded to Qatala the People of the Book (i.e. Christians and Jews) until they pay the jizyah with humiliation, disgrace or abasement.

Nice huh? Very peaceful. No thanks, AbeOman.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The dream hadith above is also translated by Dr Aisha Bewley - a Maliki expert.

XX. Disclosing a woman in a dream

1. 'Urwa related that 'A’isha said, “The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'I saw shown you twice in a dream. A man was carrying you in a silk cloth and said, ‘This is your wife.’ He uncovered it and it was you. I said, ‘If this is from Allah He will bring it about.’”

XXI. Seeing silk garments in a dream

1. 'Urwa related from 'A’isha that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, " I was shown you twice in a dream before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silk cloth and I said to him, ‘Uncover her. He uncovered it and it was you. I said, ‘If this is from Allah He will bring it about.’ Then I was shown you with the angel carrying you in a piece of silk. I said, ‘Uncover her.’ I uncovered it and it was you.’ I said, ‘If this is from Allah He will bring it about.’"

sunnipath.com/Library/Hadith/H0002P0095.aspx

We have 2 translations of the same hadith - and they say the same thing.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

4:34 does not give protection to women at all. After all, the husband has the recourse to do certain unpleasant things to the wife - including beating her.

There is nothing about ‘adult’ or ‘child’ wife here. It applies to all wives.

BTW: isn’t child wives pedophilia, AbeOman?

 

[Reuben_J]

What you say against the prophet of Islam (Peace and blessing of god be upon him) is something you have to answer to your creator and not to me. But just keep this in mind, every bad word you say against him makes me to dislike you as much and every good word you say bout him makes me to like you as much, it’s your choice,

I thought that the Quran teaches something like this but this is the first time I hear it from a Muslim. I guess that is the difference between the teaching of Jesus in the Gospel and of the author of the Quran.

I can only say this. Don’t dislike him, brother. This is only but a discussion. You still got to keep your religion and nothing is lost very much.

May God bless always.

 

[AbeOman]

4:34 does not give protection to women at all. After all, the husband has the recourse to do certain unpleasant things to the wife - including beating her.

It does and perhaps you don’t want to read it or see it. it’s your take. but I may suggest that you read it again and from the beginning.

There is nothing about ‘adult’ or ‘child’ wife here. It applies to all wives.

Never said anything like “child wife” that was your term, Islam limits the age of Marriage…so if you are genuinely interested to know for knowledge sake then I suggest you go and find it out for yourself.

BTW: isn’t child wives pedophilia, AbeOman?

Well, well now we are heading to the gutter…? what you want me to read you the OT and NT and show you so much of Pedophilia…? I won’t do it any how it’s in your head if you want to lament the Prophet of Islam with such sickness…and truly as the Bible tells us repetitively sickness comes only from sick minds…!

Go on and take your best shot.

 

[AbeOman]

The word saghiroona also appears in 27:37.

Check out what it means:

Yusuf Ali - humbled.
Pickhtall - abased.
Shakir - abasement - until a state of ignominy
Sarwar - humbled and disgraced
Khalifa - humiliated and debased
Hilali/Khan - abased
Malik - humbled and disgraced
Maulana Ali - disgraced and abased.

Muslims are commanded to Qatala the People of the Book (i.e. Christians and Jews) until they pay the jizyah with humiliation, disgrace or abasement.

Nice huh? Very peaceful. No thanks, AbeOman.

Look here, I don’t really understand this concept of “Peaceful” that you have been brandishing before me but my post was clearly dealing with your misunderstanding of the Qura’n. By Go, I could read into the Bible both (OT) and (NT) and would come out shouting…Look here this is violent and this is so and so and so…violent…not peaceful…but that is not what the debate is about…Eh.

The correct understanding of the original Arabic word “Saaghiruun” is quite clearly what is means…humbled more or less, so stop slicing and dicing…!
As you can clearly see all translators don’t agree with one meaning and also I strongly suggest that you go back to my quotes of the translation and please don’t add words from your own. that is very mean thing to do.

Unless you an Arabic and Quran scholar, then perhaps we shall turn our discussion the word itself.

Thanks again.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Sorry AbeOman,
I gave the tafsirs from Arabic masters and multiple translators for the word saghiroona.

The hadith I gave also made it clear that the Muslims were to be the Masters and the non-Muslims were to be the slaves.

So I guess the readers here will decide who is correct - you or I. I think I have given enough credible information to back my case.

I don’t care how you spell saghiroona but the fact is it is spelled ‘saghiroona’ by most transliterators of the Arabic - which again I have proven, not that the transliteration adds anything to the topic - except that you chose to make a snide issue of it.

Regardless, 9:29 is not peaceful. How would you like it if it was applied to you? Would you like to be humbled before your non-Muslim master while you pay the jizyah to us?

You wouldn’t. And neither do we.

Please look at the situation from our prespective - the treatment of non-Muslim minorities by their Muslim ‘masters’ have been quite disgusting. Nobody needs to be humbled (if that’s the word you want to use - to try to make it sound less pernicious than it really is) by their masters just because they choose to disbelieve your god.

Throughout history Muslims have never been able to permit disbelief of Islam without some sort of punishment. Why can’t you just let people believe or disbelieve? Why do you have to punish people by making yourselves their masters and humbling them?

 

[AbeOman]

AbeOman,
It’s saghiroona as in common Arabic sources like this one:
guidedways.com/search.php?keyword=saghiroona&translator=6

OMG, the same Arabic word could be in any sentence and could basically mean totally a different thing…?

SNIPPED

With all the meanings of the word, you have stick to these two humiliation/subjugation. So be it, since it serves your purpose.

SNIPPED

= Qaf-Ta-Lam = to kill, put to death, be accused, slay/murder/kill/slaughter, attempt to kill, render person like to one killed, to wage war/combat/battle, to master, contend/fight, deadly, knew a thing thoroughly/well, become acquainted with it.

Qatala…what does this proofs…? unless you are indicating that since this word is in the Quran then it proof Islam is not a peaceful religion.

Is that what you are trying to say…because I have never disputed the fact the word is there or what it means…?

For saghiroona = humiliation,

Correction, Saghiroona is not an Arabic word as the word is written Zaad+Alf+Ghain+Kazrah+Raa+Thamah+WOW+Noon. AND THERE IS NO NOONA…ok, just to show you how much you really know what you are talking about.

WRONG…it’s is the origin of the word so what does the origin mean and how does it change the meaning in it’s place in the Eraab and how does it reflect the meaning, Wa Hum Saaghiruun…! I.e. "AND=wa, THEY=HUM+Saaghiruun…! in english and they are humbled.

Who are they…? are you intimating the Christians and Jews, if so you are 100% mistaken, go back to the Ayah, whom is it dealing with…? The Pagans among the Christians and Jews or directly…?

Also, you need to understand why and for what the AYAh or Surrah was revelealed to the Prophet…? what si the reason.

Don’t just make up stroies…Ok of something you ahrdly understand.

SNIPPED

Qaribullah …Qaribullah…? what is this…? a what sort of arabic word is this…?
Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the Book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated.

I.E. NOT CHRISTIANS AND JEWS as you mistakenly and repeatedly said. Why because

So you did not even bothered to read the above…?

SNIPPED…

Of the 3 translations you supposedly gave - why did you omit Shakir? Inconvenient for you, isn’t he?

No, I did not and the same reason I did not quote from 100 of other translators, and why would he be an inconvenient for me as I speak better arabic then him…!!!
You see how your mind works…!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I looked up Lane’s Lexicon, and this is the meaning of saghiroona.

Sad-Gh-Ra = to be small/little. saaghirun - one who is small/little/subdued/abject or in a state of subjection. saghiir - small. asghar - smaller. saghaar - vileness, contempt, humiliation.

saghara vb. (1) pcple. act. 7:13, 7:119, 9:29, 12:32, 27:37

saghar n.m. 6:124

saghir n.m. (adj. comp. asghar) 2:282, 9:121, 10:61, 17:24, 18:49, 34:3, 54:53

LL, V4, p: 415, 416

studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

So it means - subdued, belittled, abject, in a state of sujection, or held in vileness, contempt, humiliation.

pg 1691
He made him contemptible, vile, base, ignominious in the eyes of men.

He became vile, base, abject, ignominious, contemptible…

pg 1692
small in rank or dignity…

in a state of vileness, abasement, ignominiousness, abjectness, or contempt.

Yup - that’s so nice of Muslims to treat non-Muslims like that. How would you like it if the tables were turned, buddy?

 

[AbeOman]

I thought that the Quran teaches something like this but this is the first time I hear it from a Muslim. I guess that is the difference between the teaching of Jesus in the Gospel and of the author of the Quran.

Did Jesus or Gospels teach us to be disrespectful to him…? defame him…? treat him like anyone of us…? call him names and tell lies about him…?

If not then how could you expect the Quran could be different, if yes then my friend the Quran does not allow such things and I believe both Gospels as revealed to the Messiah and the Quran are from the same author, they both teach the same message however we humans interpret them is a different matter all together.

I can only say this. Don’t dislike him, brother. This is only but a discussion. You still got to keep your religion and nothing is lost very much.

May God bless always.

I will dislike him or any body else who says anything “Bad” about any prophet…! we Muslims have a huge problem how Hollywood treats likes of Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham…(Peace and the Blessing of God Almighty be upon them all). Personally, if you ask me, I would go even further then “dislike” and tell you openly I hate anyone who defames or mistreats all the of the Prophets and messengers of God Almighty and their families. We don’t buy all that blasphemous stuff you call "Defame Jesus and Win Awards…Hollywood style stuff.

I could see clearly I’m bit emotionally just talking about it.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

No, I did not and the same reason I did not quote from 100 of other translators, and why would he be an inconvenient for me as I speak better arabic then him…!!!
You see how your mind works…!

Pretty difficult to imagine why you say you quote 3 translators and then omit the one that does not support your position.

Anyway - please take a look at the entry in Lane’s Lexicon - the tone of saghiroona is pretty clear with:

abject, contemptible, ignominy, smallness, vileness, in a state of subjection etc.

Not very nice, is it?

 

[Booklover]

Pretty difficult to imagine why you say you quote 3 translators and then omit the one that does not support your position.

Anyway - please take a look at the entry in Lane’s Lexicon - the tone of saghiroona is pretty clear with:

abject, contemptible, ignominy, smallness, vileness, in a state of subjection etc.

Not very nice, is it?

Muslims also consider unbelievers to be “najis”, unclean!

Vickie