Saudi Marriage 'Expert' Advises Men in 'Right Way' to Beat Their Wives

[rpp]

Is it true, that people are not allowed to take bibles with them to the olymipics?

I have heard that too, but that is China, and China is not a Muslim country.

 

[AbeOman]

If Islam is so tolerant and open, as AbeOman claims:

Why is it illegal to celebrate Mass in most Islamic countries, like Saudi Arabia?

Why is there a death sentence for those who convert from Islam to Christianity? (Iran executes 12 to 20 converts per year. Pakistan executes converts too.)

Why is it legal for a Muslim to burn a Bible, but a crime punishable by death for a non-Moslem to even tear a page from a Quran? (Recent case in Pakistan where a Christian was convicted and sentenced to death despite the fact that there was no proof at all. The court also ignored the fact that this man and his accusers were in the midst of a property dispute, thus giving a motive for false accusation. Only under international pressure was this man released, but on the condition that he and his entire family be deported and all his property confiscated.)

Muslims in Europe and the USA and not treated in this manner.

Please, don’t question me about what Saudi’s do, they don’t allow women to drive and you are not going to tell me that is in Islam or in the Islamic teachings otherwise my sisters are committing a great sin.

I live in the Sultanate of Oman, and you are more than welcome to celebrate Mass, though sometimes I have an issue with Christians themselves since you have different masses in different times and for different purposes. as matter of fact, by the Omani Labor Law you can take Christmas day off as your religious holiday.

Please don’t take it for my word but check it out.

do the Iran’s kill that many numbers of folks who leave Islam, well according to the State department the Iran government is killing more Muslims than that in any given year for all together different reason.

let’s check it and see if this to be the case, so far the only case I know for a fact is in Afghanistan and the guy is still alive and the debate is going where some scholars are for it and some are against it.

If you ask me, he can convert atheist all I care and I base that in the Quran and Hadith, everyone is free to believe what he or she feels like, what is important historically is that those who break off with Islam likes of Musailamah Al Kadab had army that was wagging war against Muslims and Islam and that is the only case I know for sure “Hadd” is applicable. Hadd means death pelenty.

As for Bible burning, I hope you can proof this but this is wrong…anyone who does this is committing a great crime so have you got hard proof, share it with me and with your Muslim friends and let’s put stop to it. No one has the right to do that and both Quran and Hadith are clear about it.

Thanks, great questions though

 

[AbeOman]

I have heard that too, but that is China, and China is not a Muslim country.

Thanks, then let’s all agree to boycott the Olympics…!!!

B I personally know this is not true…as Beijing would not have a Chinese cardinal if it was true.

Sometimes, we need to look deeper, beyond and between the lines and note that not everything we read in the news these day is not the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

What do you think…?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

ARe you not, right now, engaging in a course of conduct designed to belittle Abe?

When I force him to pay the jizyah to me under threat of Qatiloo then I think you would have a point with your fallacy of equivocation.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

AbeOman:

Rodrigo:

Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah

You see here the words: Jews and Christians?

Yes? No?

NOP…NONE…ZILCH…and please, I have asked you so many times, since it’s NOT in the Ayah then least you can do for me is show it to me from the ORIGINAL ARABIC Test of the HADITH from Ibn Al Katheer…!

Also, this is a clear contradiction in so many passages were God is teaching us not even to curse let alone fight against the people of the books (Christians and Jews) ACCEPT those who initiate a war against Muslims.

What are you asking? I already told you that the tafsir of Ibn Kathir said the People of the Book were Jews and Christians and I even gave you the reference.

How 9:29 be only to those who initiate a war with Muslims? It was revealed in 9 AH – where were the Christians then? Certainly not in Arabia.

AbeOman:

Rodrigo:

So Syria is in Arabia, is it?

From Yemen in the south all the way to Turkish/Kurdistan border is what is called Arabia today (Excluding North Africa+Two Countries in Horn of Africa as these are called Arab States and NOT Arabia) but not then…ever head of the words Arabia Felix or ancient Arabia…? at one point I thought you were a historian…

So Syria is part of Arabia Felix?

I’m talking about Syria here, buddy. Why did you bring up Yemen?

AbeOman:

Rodrigo:

So when Muhammad ordered Umar to fight the Persians and impose the Jizyah, they were in Arabia were they?

I don’t follow you but the battle took place in Tabook, Northern Saudi Arabia…! you know that don’t you…!

As your reference about Persians, I guess there you go on again making up your own history…! or reading into the Quran as you wish…that Ayah was send down for specific purpose and at a specific time and place…! Don’t they show these details in the sites you are coping from…?

Tabuk was not in the Arabia of the Arabs – it belonged to the Byzantines. You know – it belonged to other people. In modern times it is in Saudi Arabia but that was 14 centuries ago.

How can I make up history? Read the hadith – it clearly states that the Muslims went to Persia to enforce 9:29 on them.

AbeOman:

Rodrigo:

So you think you know better than the tafsir masters, do you? Why don’t you read the tafsir I gave. What I wrote came from there.

Absolutely not, never said that or claimed anything like that all I did was I got an authentic a copy of Ibn Katheer Hadith books and I honestly fail to see where it says People of Scriptures or Jews or Christians…! he just narrates totally different then that.

I have shown you the exact quote.

Let me see your evidence. I will get my Arab friends to translate.

Go on – why do I always have to show the evidence and you don’t./

Show me the evidence.

AbeOman:

Rodrigo:

I’m an atheist, not that it matters.

It matters very much, you believe in nothing so what is the point of going into all these. since to doubt is the first step in believing.

had you had doubts then I’m sure you would have asked your questions in a different manner and take the time to read my responses and then ask for more clarifications. Then agree or disagree with me.

And if you don’t believe in god why is it so important for you to know his ways and instructions, but if you would then I think you could start asking me any questions about Islam or you can ask the Catholic brothers and sisters on this forum on anything about Catholism, I’m sure they will be more than happy to help you out.

My belief or not is irrelevant to the issue of Islam. You are conducting a fallacy of ad hominem here.

AbeOman:

Rodrigo:

Umar al-Khattab of course. The least you could have done was read the Bukhari hadith I gave. If you did - you would know this.

I I already knew which Omar you were referring to, never the less at times one needs to be little bit light headed…

Don’t do that. You are not funny.

AbeOman:

Rodrigo:

Of course since you’re a Muslim you are proud that Muhammad and Muslims forced the People of the Book to pay the Jizyah with subjection/humiliation/state of abasement etc.

You even did read and understand what I have wrote in Arabic (English words) Did you…?

Ooh clever one, that is called batching-up statement in arguments, it’s like putting together things that don’t belong to together…just like the apple and oranges…! I’m sure you have heard that before. .

How tricky you are my friend, why would not you just make this statement from get go and safe me all the hustle and time…i have spent replying to you.
So what? What you wrote has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

cont.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

AbeOman:

Let me break it down to you…I made it clear the Ayah was NOT referring to the people of the book (Christians and Jews) but you seem to do bit f insertion of your own…can I suggest something…pick up the Quran AL Kareem in it’s original Arabic text…Or the Hatidh if you can find one…read it once more…slowly.
Now see what it say…(Minalladeen) “from among those” that is clear…does “from among those” means or even sounds people of the book to you…!

So you’re saying Yusuf Ali is wrong when he wrote this?

Yusuf Ali Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Remember you brought Yusuf Ali as evidence? Are you saying you brought us false evidence?

The verse says from among those who were given the Book = People of the Book.

This is from the tafsirs:
Jalalayn:
Those have been given the Scripture, namely, the Jews and the Christians.

Tafsir Ibn Abbas
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture) the Jews and Christians

Tafsir Ibn Kathir
This honorable ayah (passage) was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book

(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture,) This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims’ control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah,

So what’s your point again?

AbeOman:

More ever. Let’s do one more Acid Test,

1- Do people of the Book Believe in God…(lets say the “Father” or “One God as Jews believe”, Do they both believe the day of Judgement…Absolutely YES…Do they forbid wickedness, YES again.

Now, what does the Ayah (verse) say and is referring to …Those who don’t believe in God or the the day of Judgement and those who don’t forbid wickedness…!

So who are folks the verse referring to Christians and Jews or someone else…???

Rodrigo:

It’s always nice to treat people like dirt, isn’t it, especially when you’re extorting protection money from them.

Even nicer one…eh, well first choose a faith, why dust mind, since you actually have none and least to say that’s bit cheeky statement…!!!

You got it wrong, buddy.
The verse says:

Fight against those

A) who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger,

and

B) those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission
A = non-Muslims, including Jews and Christians because Jews and Christians do not “forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger,”

B = Jews and Christians who pay the Jizyah with submission.

Now, I’m asking why fight the Jews and Christians to force them to pay the Jizyah with submission?

Hence, you are totally wrong.

Even if these people were someone else – does it make Muhammad less evil? No. You are saying it is okay to oppress some other people. Your hole is getting very deep, buddy. Time to stop digging.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I have heard that too, but that is China, and China is not a Muslim country.

That is not true. Visitors are asked to not take more than one bible during the Olympics.

catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=10915

Making a slight change to its total ban on religious items, the Chinese Olympic Committee has decided, "devotional objects” will be allowed in compliance with Chinese “freedom of religion” laws, but “religious objects meant to propagate a cult” will not be permitted.

However, on the official website of the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games, a page titled “Entry and Exit: Entry” credited to the Beijing Tourism Administration reads:

“Any printed material, film, tapes that are ‘detrimental to China’s politics, economy, culture and ethics’ are also forbidden to bring into China.”

This is immediately followed by a caution about Bibles:

“Note: Each traveler is recommended to take no more than one Bible into China.”

This is the official Chinese policy - you can take your personal bible but not to proselytize by taking in more.

 

[Valke2]

Is it true, that people are not allowed to take bibles with them to the olymipics?

tHAT STOry was incorrect and I’m pretty sure everyone in China has said bibles will be permitted.

 

[Reuben_J]

The bottom line is, I hate the act but not the person, …

You redeem yourself there. That’s to say I understand what you’re trying to say.

I’m warning you though that one charming Muslim here won’t change the fact of the mess that Islam finds herself in today. For that matter, I’m more with Rodrigo in this discussion. I’d like to believe you because that would what everybody want and that would be the best for everyone, but the Quran is so vivid in this issue of jizya, subjugation and submission of the non-Muslims.

When Christians cite the practices of the so-called failed government of Islamic nations , I’m so sure of what your answer will be - they are not true Islamic nations. Which beg the question - is Islamic nation viable? Never in history you had an ideal and utopiapic Islamic rule and that includes the early Caliphates. I’d say they were not ideal nor perfect.

As for Mohammad marriages, I admit that I am no expert in this matter nor the reason behind those actions. However, it’s not the reasons but the action itself that is so wrong. There cannot be any migitation as there cannot be any compromise on what is wrong. Mohammad disappoints me by bethroting to a 6 year old. I expect better for a prophet. He, of all the people, should be the one who should say no. No, that was not right. But he did not. He did what was wrong. By the way I have a nine year old daugther. That’s why I agree with you … I’ll put up my life for her.

The Virgin Mary, by the way, was a young woman during her conception. You can put her age at the minimum 14 at that time. I understand Islam honors her too. That’s where our religions converge.

Peace.

 

[rpp]

Please, don’t question me about what Saudi’s do, they don’t allow women to drive and you are not going to tell me that is in Islam or in the Islamic teachings otherwise my sisters are committing a great sin.

I live in the Sultanate of Oman, and you are more than welcome to celebrate Mass, though sometimes I have an issue with Christians themselves since you have different masses in different times and for different purposes. as matter of fact, by the Omani Labor Law you can take Christmas day off as your religious holiday.

Please don’t take it for my word but check it out.

do the Iran’s kill that many numbers of folks who leave Islam, well according to the State department the Iran government is killing more Muslims than that in any given year for all together different reason.

let’s check it and see if this to be the case, so far the only case I know for a fact is in Afghanistan and the guy is still alive and the debate is going where some scholars are for it and some are against it.

If you ask me, he can convert atheist all I care and I base that in the Quran and Hadith, everyone is free to believe what he or she feels like, what is important historically is that those who break off with Islam likes of Musailamah Al Kadab had army that was wagging war against Muslims and Islam and that is the only case I know for sure “Hadd” is applicable. Hadd means death pelenty.

As for Bible burning, I hope you can proof this but this is wrong…anyone who does this is committing a great crime so have you got hard proof, share it with me and with your Muslim friends and let’s put stop to it. No one has the right to do that and both Quran and Hadith are clear about it.

Thanks, great questions though

I appreciate you thanks for the questions. But what I really wanted was an answer to them. You did not answer any of them, you just dodged them. On one side you say "Such things never happen. Then you follow that with something like, “Well, when it does happen, isn’t it nice that the sky is blue.”

Answer the tough questions and we will listen to you. Your failure to address them diminishes your credibility.