"Save a life at all costs" is a dangerous philosophy, is it not?

[Beryllos]

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[Freddy]

As I see it, the governments in the US (federal, state, local) are not operating in a “save a life at any cost” mode.

They have been trying all along to work out how much we can open up economic and social activities without COVID-19 cases rising beyond what our health care system can handle.

It’s not going smoothly because too many Americans are stubborn and willful and not following the good and appropriate advice given to them.

Now COVID-19 cases are on the rise, and that’s why we’re considering greater restrictions.

A few countries are doing much better: Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea, Thailand. What are they doing that we could be doing?

If there’s an outbreak, isolate it - if if’s a small suburb or the whole state.

Contact trace every outbreak - although you need it under control for that to be effective. That’s just to stop a second wave.

Don’t politicise it. Everyone has generally backed federal and state leaders whatever their politics.

Listen to medical advice - if they say wear a mask you wear a mask.

Get testing stations everywhere (there’s one a few minutes walk from me) and all free. Test results in half a day.

Ban all uneccesary travel including international travel.

Ban large gatherings.

Anyone coming into the country must quarantine for two weeks.

Contact details to be given when entering any pub, club, bar, cafe or restaurant. If they have someone visit who has tested positive you will be contacted and you must get tested.

Just a heads up: Australia had no cases yesterday. The US has just passed 100,000 cases in one day. It’s getting out of control again in Europe and they seem to be doing everything they can. The US seems not to be doing anything. It will rip through the country well before anyone gets a vaccine.

You guys lost over 400,000 in the Second World War. I’m afraid that this will take even more lives.

 

[Beryllos]

It’s getting out of control again in Europe and they seem to be doing everything they can.

Yes, their covid-19 cases are increasing sharply, which is surprising to me because they were doing much better than the US a few months ago. Quite worrisome!

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

So what do you all think we should do if the death and hospitalization rates drop but the case rates keep climbing?

 

[umamibella]

Is it not ? Aren’t various world leaders blinded by this philosophy?

Covid 19 responses vary country by country. Australia and NZ took a grave response and strict approach to saving lives and limiting the spread. As freddy said, no new covid cases today in Australia
France and UK have gone back into lockdown. Both countries are bracing for the worst.
All these leaders are not blinded by economic philosphies and take advise from their medical advisors and public health advisors. They value life sufficient to take these drastic steps to save life.
Then there are leaders of nations who are the opposite in response. They put economic values ahead of lives and minimize those risks to their economies, they might look at seeking herd immunity and just keep going as normal.
This demonstrates the myriad responses by national leaders and probably reflects the value life and economies holds for each of them.

 

[Irishmom2]

This is pretty vague. “From what I have been told…”

 

[pnewton]

The only thing one cannot trade lives for is other lives. As our society is integrated, we cannot shut down without losing lives. So, ideally, we should shut down all that we can to save as many lives as we can, while not allowing entertainment and standard of living to be a factor. Unfortunately, this has not been done, and to the extent it has, no good, long-term provision has been made for those that do not work, to either find some other work, or receive support until they can work.

 

[BT3241]

Its always been about the health system capacity from day one not to save lives at all costs but people keep twisting it.

 

[Beryllos]

So what do you all think we should do if the death and hospitalization rates drop but the case rates keep climbing?

Figure out what we’re doing right, to reduce hospitalization and death, and do more of the same! Do you have any idea why that trend exists?

As for what to do, I think it would be prudent at a minimum to continue testing, isolating people who test positive, and contact tracing (minimal though it is in the US) to try to keep the case rate down. If too many people get sick all at once, even if they don’t die, that’s going to adversely affect economic, educational, social, and other activities.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Figure out what we’re doing right, to reduce hospitalization and death, and do more of the same! Do you have any idea why that trend exists?

New diseases seem to do this — I think the most susceptible people or the mist likely risks groups to die don’t survive.

 

[Beryllos]

So what do you all think we should do if the death and hospitalization rates drop but the case rates keep climbing?

For others who are reading, these graphs from CDC illustrate the discrepancy between cases and deaths:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

This reflects my state’s statistics.
We have opened up some businesses and schools, the case rates are climbing, the hospitalization and mortality rates have not risen.

 

[Beryllos]

I think also that doctors have learned how to treat it better, and the general public have learned to seek care earlier, before the disease has progressed too far.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

In the Third World about fifteen thousand children starve to death and die of preventable disease every day. UNICEF say about 52 million children under the age of five will die by 2030, largely of preventable causes.

 

[Raxus]

Abolishing cigarettes is the first that comes to mind. That kills about 7 million per year worldwide.

Why stop there? Why not abolish alcohol? And then excess fats? And then sugar? And then, and then…

We’ve already seen why abolition doesn’t work. We can stop folks from hurting others, but not themselves. We don’t have the right.

 

[Beryllos]

Why stop there?

I only said that it was the first that came to mind. Tobacco kills more than alcohol and all illegal drugs combined, so if I had to pick one, that’s it.

Regarding abolition, you are on to something. In America, and perhaps all of Western Civilization, liberty is our false god. Keep your hands off my you-name-it: tobacco, alcohol, guns, uterus. Can’t make me wear a face mask. Don’t tell me how to live well.

All this liberty, exercised selfishly, has consequences that paradoxically result in restrictions of our freedom.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I really do question whether all the Covid preventives have saved any lives at all. Yes, they have probably lowered some “spikes”, but I have yet to see anything establishing that anyone has been permanently preserved from getting the disease.

Yes, it’s possible vaccines may help for a time, just as having had the disease appears to impart immunity for a time, and just as SOMETIMES flu shots prevent the flu for a time. But none of it seems to be permanent, even the prognostications about vaccines.

 

[Freddy]

I really do question whether all the Covid preventives have saved any lives at all. Yes, they have probably lowered some “spikes”, but I have yet to see anything establishing that anyone has been permanently preserved from getting the disease.

Yes, it’s possible vaccines may help for a time, just as having had the disease appears to impart immunity for a time, and just as SOMETIMES flu shots prevent the flu for a time. But none of it seems to be permanent, even the prognostications about vaccines.

The flu evolves. That’s why you need yearly shots. The ones that you have next year won’t be same ones you had last year. Likewise with covid. One vaccine won’t give you lifetime protection so there’s no permanent solution.

But there are very many procedures that will prevent you getting it this time around.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Apparently Covid evolves too. That’s why this is called “Covid 19” and “Novel Coronavirus”. With some diseases, vaccines work remarkably well. For some, not so well. Even St. Fauci thinks Covid vaccine results will be short lived.

But there are very many procedures that will prevent you getting it this time around

No there aren’t. There are measures that are believed by some (disbelieved by others) to improve your chances of avoiding it for the present. There are none considered fail safe. And among those who don’t take those measure, there is no real evidence their chances are worse than the chances of those who do.

 

[umamibella]

The flu evolves. That’s why you need yearly shots. The ones that you have next year won’t be same ones you had last year. Likewise with covid. One vaccine won’t give you lifetime protection so there’s no permanent solution.

But there are very many procedures that will prevent you getting it this time around.

It depends on the strain of flu. WHO determines that on an annual basis and identifies the 4 most prevalent strains for that season. Its not really flu evolving.