"Save a life at all costs" is a dangerous philosophy, is it not?

[Socrates92]

Could you be a whole lot more specific than this thread prompt?

What, specifically, are you arguing against?

Or are you arguing some specific pandemic response thing, in which case why not make a thread about that – or if you have, leave the discussion on that thread?

I can see the benefit of starting the discussion from a more general standpoint, and then narrowing into its application towards the pandemic response. Given the emotionally charged atmosphere surrounding the pandemic/plandemic (depending on your outlook), it makes sense to assess your logic first with respect to policy surrounding smoking or driving, assess the similarities and differences, and then apply to the Covid situation.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Well yeah…there may be some people who are sick and can’t be bothered to go to their local testing station. You can do your best to prevent the spread but you can’t legislate against stupidity.

It’s not a matter of stupidity. The last estimate I read is that for every symptomatic person there are three who are completely asymptomatic. Is the whole population being tested in order to find those people? If not, you’ll never contact trace all carriers. There are some who estimate that it’s even higher than that and that some positives cannot be detected with current methods because a focal colony of virus could be in a location other than the swabbed area.

The U.S. borders are thousands of miles long, through largely uninhabited country. And of course the Democrat party here resists closing the borders. Our health departments are definitely contact tracing, but that’s limited by a statute with the acronym HIPAA here. You can’t disclose the health condition of another, period, unless that person gives permission in writing. Quarantine cannot be made compulsory for that reason among others.

It appears the economy of Australia is almost certainly much different from ours or that of Europe. You can’t ban interstate travel without shutting down the economies of the affected states, because no state is autonomous economically. The same is true in Europe.

But again, it’s only a matter of time before NZ has more cases and Australia too.

 

[Socrates92]

Anyways, since I’ve already taken the bait of joining this thread, I might as well share this link. Lots of great stuff on here. This is the “cost” side of the “save a life at all costs” equation, which has apparently been largely ignored by decision makers. The Price of Panic

 

[Freddy]

Our health departments are definitely contact tracing, but that’s limited by a statute with the acronym HIPAA here. You can’t disclose the health condition of another, period, unless that person gives permission in writing. Quarantine cannot be made compulsory for that reason among others.

It appears the economy of Australia is almost certainly much different from ours or that of Europe. You can’t ban interstate travel without shutting down the economies of the affected states, because no state is autonomous economically. The same is true in Europe.

Your contact tracing is limited and you can’t quarantine? What the…? Well, watch the numbers grow.

And state isolation in Oz doesn’t prevent business between states. You can still ship goods across state lines. With permission.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Your contact tracing is limited and you can’t quarantine? What the…? Well, watch the numbers grow.

HIPAA was enacted during the height of the AIDS crisis, and almost certainly was intended to protect people with AIDS from disclosure. Even physicians operating on a patient couldn’t know whether the patient had AIDS. All health workers had to take “universal precautions” as if every patient had a blood-borne pathogen. HIPAA doesn’t just apply to healthcare workers. It applies to everybody. You are in violation if you disclose the health condition of another.

In the U.S., you cannot detain another without probable cause and even then, the person has to be provided a judicial hearing to justify the detention. Having a contagious disease is not sufficient basis for an arrest.

Wonder how your permission works. In my part of this state, there are a lot of poultry producers and plants. Same is true right across the line in Arkansas. Poultry are shipped from farm to processing plant across state lines many times daily. Fresh product is delivered to restaurants and fast food places several times/day, directly from the plants. Walmart’s warehouses are in Bentonville, Arkansas, and they ship thousands of tons of product interstate daily. J.B. Hunt is a huge trucking concern in Springdale Arkansas, and thousands of trucks are on the highways or are carried on the railroads daily. Jack Henry & Associates is a major banking software producer in SW Mo, and it sends jets full of specialists all over the U.S. daily. It has its own jets, big ones, and its own pilots. Trains miles long haul containers from the west coast to the upper midwest and east many times/day.

I really don’t see how a permission requirement could possibly work in this country.

But if I’m right and Covid becomes endemic worldwide, your preventive procedures will only work temporarily anyway. Even if you stamp it out, which I don’t think you will, one stowaway from Thailand or Vietnam or one person who stays asymptomatic but infected more than 14 days and it all starts again.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Save someone else’s life at any cost? Well, I’d need to know what the cost is. Is it my life? Then I’m less interested in the cost (within reason).

Every day around fifteen thousand children die from starvation and preventable disease. We have the resources, the cost is relatively low per child.

 

[Beryllos]

@Ridgerunner, I’m not sure what you’re arguing. That disease control is futile? Or worthless? That optimism must be suppressed? What’s the beef?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Not at all. What I’m doing is cautioning against false impressions that Covid is going to be eradicated, when there’s no reason to believe that and every reason to doubt it.

I am especially concerned when politicians propose draconian measures in order to achieve the mythical eradication. Some of them would put us into the deepest depression this country ever saw in the belief that it would somehow eliminate Covid. Meanwhile, about 20% of us get an uncontrolled version of Covid every year, sometimes more than once, a version we consider a “common cold”. And we’re going to eradicate that if we just destroy the economy? No.

 

[Beryllos]

I am especially concerned when politicians propose draconian measures in order to achieve the mythical eradication.

I would be concerned too.

Here in Massachusetts, there’s no mention of eradication. When the caseload goes up above defined thresholds, we tighten up. When the caseload goes down and meets attainable targets, we loosen up.

Businesses and schools here are open. The state has issued advisories, for example, just yesterday they asked us to wear a face mask whenever out in public. This is a step up from the previous advisory to wear a face mask if 6-foot distance could not be maintained. They’ve also asked us to avoid holiday parties and extended family gatherings. These advisories are in response to rising actual and projected cases

This approach is far from draconian, seems to be acceptable to the people, and so far seems to be working.

 

[umamibella]

Maybe Australia can keep people out and quarantine them forever, but I can’t see that lasting indefinitely.

The litmus test is going to come very shortly as the joint opens up. Covid is known to live on surfaces for sometime and be present in different manmals as well as people. I cant see the virus ever being totally eliminated for these reasons.

asymptomatic

Just a note , asymptomatic people never develop symptoms. They can still have a large viral load though and spread the virus, at lower rates and just not as effectively due to not coughing, sneezing or other similar ways.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I have sometimes wondered whether personal quarantining is a hazard in itself. Even quarantined people go out sometime if they want to eat. Imagine how covered with virus they and their clothes are after sitting in an enclosed space day after day.

 

[Raxus]

Tobacco kills more than alcohol and all illegal drugs combined, so if I had to pick one, that’s it.

But only the folks that choose to indulge in it, unlike the others.

Regarding abolition, you are on to something. In America, and perhaps all of Western Civilization, liberty is our false god. Keep your hands off my you-name-it: tobacco, alcohol, guns, uterus. Can’t make me wear a face mask. Don’t tell me how to live well.

The argument to liberty can be made on all of those except the abortion reference, which infringes on the liberty of another human being.

All this liberty, exercised selfishly, has consequences that paradoxically result in restrictions of our freedom.

I don’t think liberty is selfishly exercised, as a general rule. People advocating for abortion aren’t advocating for liberty, they’re advocating for freedom from consequence / denial of liberty to others.

 

[Socrates92]

Only if you went into hibernation all summer. They gave up the hospital’s-being-overwhelmed narrative a long time ago.

 

[umamibella]

I have sometimes wondered whether personal quarantining is a hazard in itself. Even quarantined people go out sometime if they want to eat. Imagine how covered with virus they and their clothes are after sitting in an enclosed space day after day.

Quarantine in Victoria should mean cannot go anywhere until covid tests are negative after a fortnight. It has to be policed properly. In Victoria it was not at first.