Saying rosary during mass

[weepixie71]

Focusing on the Mass (ANY valid Mass) and praying for the grace to overcome and not be effected by those things that don’t quite sit well with you would bring you even greater peace. Yes I’m sure you feel it’s the fault of the Catholic Church/parish/celebrant/select laity/etc. that certain Masses do not sit well with you. Nevertheless I would suggest that truly focusing in on the Mass and not on a diversion (even the Rosary) would eventually provide you with enough of God’s grace to be at far greater peace – and prepared to be far better nourished…

we are all entitled to opinions. i never once left mass at that church feeling nourished. if anything i left feeling emptier than when i came in and depressed because i found it so distastefully done. i believe by going to that mass saying my rosary, asking God to lead me to a mass that would please Him, He led me and my family to the Tridentine Mass. so i do not regret nor feel i did anything wrong at all.
i understand how and why you would find it inappropriate, but i believe the Holy Spirit helps people see things that others do not.

 

[Cathryn]

I see no problem with people praying the rosary silently during the Mass. It is certainly not forbidden and should not bother anyone. I would assume these people have a very good understanding of the Mass and their minds and hearts are united to Christ and HIs unbloody Sacrifice on the altar. People who pray the rosary tend to have a deep union with God. As others have pointed out, meditating on the life, death, and resurrection of Christ is always good.

 

[OhMalley]

I see no problem with people praying the rosary silently during the Mass. It is certainly not forbidden and should not bother anyone. I would assume these people have a very good understanding of the Mass and their minds and hearts are united to Christ and HIs unbloody Sacrifice on the altar. People who pray the rosary tend to have a deep union with God. As others have pointed out, meditating on the life, death, and resurrection of Christ is always good.

I don’t believe it’s forbidden and it certainly wouldn’t bother me if it was silent but I would still find it to be tragic. The Mass is the ultimate prayer of the Church – not the Rosary or anything else. Anything (in my opinion) be it the Rosary, an actual abuse, some other irregularity (people talking, etc.) or lack of grace that causes us to lose focus on the Mass is tragic.

I think some view praying the Rosary positively here not because it’s good to focus on the Rosary during the Mass but because it’s an old practice. If say in the 1960’s it became fashionable to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet during the Mass, you can bet doing so would be largely vilified here, even if the Church did not have a negative view of the practice.

If I attended any valid Catholic Mass without feeling nourished that would be a problem. A problem whose genesis I would share along with whatever/whomever I personally disliked about the Mass.

 

[Brendan]

I think some view praying the Rosary positively here not because it’s **good to focus on the Rosary **during the Mass but because it’s an old practice. .

This is where I have the problem.

What if the Rosary is the particular way that person focuses?

That is the whole purpose of the Rosary, to encourage focusing on mediations. If the person involved uses that focusing on the Mass, where exactly is the problem?

 

[ac_claire]

Nothing you’ve said so far illustrates to me that saying the rosary during mass is allowed. I can’t imaging meditating on Mary’s visit to Elizabeth during the EP when we are supposed to be listening to the priest’s offering is reverent. I don’t think Mary would appreciate us thinking about her when we should be thinking about her son’s sacrifice either.

Those documents you referred to are old. One thing that stuck out is that we don’t necessarily understand what the priest is saying. Well, maybe if we tried we would. There is nothing that I’ve heard that the priest says aloud that I don’t understand.

Snerticus, I noticed back in post #39 you told japhy:

But as I mentioned earlier (I think), if you show me in some Church document that it is allowed to say the rosary during mass, I will accept it.

In post #43 he then showed you two church documents confirming that praying the rosary is allowed during Mass.

I’m just scratching my head here over your response…“those documents you referred to are old.” What exactly are you looking for? “New” Church documents from the past 10-20 years confirming that Rosary during Mass is allowed? If so, why? You asked for Church documents and you got them. What else would it have to take to convince you?

I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m picking on you…I was just browsing this thread and that exchange jumped out at me. I was thinking it might be an oversight.

 

[zab]

Snerticus, I noticed back in post #39 you told japhy:

In post #43 he then showed you two church documents confirming that praying the rosary is allowed during Mass.

I’m just scratching my head here over your response…“those documents you referred to are old.” What exactly are you looking for? “New” Church documents from the past 10-20 years confirming that Rosary during Mass is allowed? If so, why? You asked for Church documents and you got them. What else would it have to take to convince you?

I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m picking on you…I was just browsing this thread and that exchange jumped out at me. I was thinking it might be an oversight.

Because the old documents came out at the time when the Mass was in Latin and active participation was not always possible.

 

[zab]

Apostolic Exhortation of His Holiness Pope Paul VI,

MARIALIS CULTIS

#48 …the Rosary is an exercise of piety that draws its motivating force from the liturgy and leads naturally back to it, if practiced in conformity with its original inspiration.; It does not, however, become part of the liturgy. In fact, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary, by familiaring the hearts and minds of the faithful with the mysteries of Christ, can be an excellent preparation for the creation of those same mysteries in the liturgical action and an also become a continuing echo thereof. However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there.

See: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

 

[bilop]

Because the old documents came out at the time when the Mass was in Latin and active participation was not always possible.

Nonsense.

We’ve got to move past the idea that “active participation” means saying or doing something. Active participation in the Mass is, first and foremost, prayer and meditation.

When the Mass was in Latin, many people had Missals with the translations. Most people who were Catholic all their lives would have been taught what was going on at different parts of the Mass. I’d bet anything that your average Catholic in 1920 was participating more actively (in the true sense) than your average Catholic today.

Heck, lots of Catholics today don’t even believe in the real Presence. That rules out any participation from square one. They don’t have any idea what’s happening at the Mass.

Go back 50, 100, 200 years, every Catholic in that Church would understand exactly what was happening when the bells rang at consecration. They were participating, even if they didn’t understand one word of the Mass.

Go to any EF Mass today. You’ll find people with and without Missals. Observe the reverence and attitudes of the congregation, and then come here and try to tell me they are not “partcipating actively” even though they do nothing but listen, watch and pray.

God Bless

 

[zab]

Nonsense.

We’ve got to move past the idea that “active participation” means saying or doing something. Active participation in the Mass is, first and foremost, prayer and meditation.

When the Mass was in Latin, many people had Missals with the translations. Most people who were Catholic all their lives would have been taught what was going on at different parts of the Mass. I’d bet anything that your average Catholic in 1920 was participating more actively (in the true sense) than your average Catholic today.

Heck, lots of Catholics today don’t even believe in the real Presence. That rules out any participation from square one. They don’t have any idea what’s happening at the Mass.

Go back 50, 100, 200 years, every Catholic in that Church would understand exactly what was happening when the bells rang at consecration. They were participating, even if they didn’t understand one word of the Mass.

Go to any EF Mass today. You’ll find people with and without Missals. Observe the reverence and attitudes of the congregation, and then come here and try to tell me they are not “partcipating actively” even though they do nothing but listen, watch and pray.

God Bless

I remember the Latin Mass. I was a child but I remember following in English and understanding what was happening. I am not in disagreement with you here.

 

[zab]

Nonsense. No such pronouncement has ever been made. Japhy posted several citations showing it was perfectly fine to engage in private prayer during Mass.

The rubrics of the Mass (the GIRM) bind the celebrant and servers, not the congregation.

God Bless

Wrong.

See: Apostolic Exhortation MARIALIS CULTUS
#48

 

[Sarabande]

Because the old documents came out at the time when the Mass was in Latin and active participation was not always possible.

Just because others may not be seeing or hearing someone participate, does not mean that they are not engaging in “active participation”. I think those people people who went to Latin Mass were just as ‘active’ in their participation as they are today. It just wasn’t an audible or seen participation to the rest of the congregation. My earliest memories of mass were in the 1980s, although I have on occasion attended EF masses over the past few years. My “participation” at each of those masses is “active” although they may be a little different from each other. As much as I love to sing, sometimes “actively participating” through just listening is more spiritually beneficial than “actively participating” by being audible with my voice. I’m singing in my head and heart with the same amount of fervor and participation as I would when singing.

That’s how I feel about those older women like my grandmother and her contemporaries (and apparently some younger people in their 50s and under) who can actively participate through prayer using the rosary while at mass. I think the problem is that those of us who just can’t understand how they can be totally transfixed and focused and actively participating on the mass while saying the rosary, are only thinking about how we would handle it personally. These people obviously can do it. It doesn’t make them better than any of us who can’t, but we can’t say that just because we couldn’t give our complete focus on the mass means that they can’t. Many of them did it from the time they were little tots and have developed an ability to use their praying of the rosary as a way to better focus on the mass – as unbelievable as it may sound to some people. And quite honestly, most of these older ladies I know who do this, have a much better understanding of the sacrifice of the mass than those who are of my generation which grew up around this idea that active participation meant to always be seen and heard being participatory. I’m thankful that many of the priests in my parish and other parishes I’ve attended have now been trying to fix that misconception in their homilies and such if it fit within with the readings of the day.

 

[bilop]

Wrong.

See: Apostolic Exhortation MARIALIS CULTUS
#48

OK. Was unaware of that document.

So, now we have contradictory statements from different Popes, neither of which is written in such a way as to be binding on the faithful.

I, personally, would always go with Pius XII over Paul VI in matters of judgement (of course they never disagree on doctrine or dogma). I will admit that this is probably colored by my very negative view of almost all of Paul VI’s Pontificate (Humanae Vitae being the glaring positive exception).

Given all his errors in judgement (my perception of course) I don’t put a lot of stock in Paul VI, outside of Magisterial teachings.

God Bless

 

[zab]

OK. Was unaware of that document.

So, now we have contradictory statements from different Popes, neither of which is written in such a way as to be binding on the faithful.

I, personally, would always go with Pius XII over Paul VI in matters of judgement (of course they never disagree on doctrine or dogma). I will admit that this is probably colored by my very negative view of almost all of Paul VI’s Pontificate (Humanae Vitae being the glaring positive exception).

Given all his errors in judgement (my perception of course) I don’t put a lot of stock in Paul VI, outside of Magisterial teachings.

God Bless

Nonsense!

 

[bilop]

Nonsense!

Sorry, which part is nonsense?

We clearly have two encyclicals, by two different Popes, one saying that private devotions during Mass are fine (based on the need of the individual on how they best can unite their prayers) and one saying that praying the Rosary during Mass is a mistake.

Neither is written is such a way as to be binding on the faithful: they don’t say “praying the Rosary is mandated” or “praying the Rosary is forbidden”.

So, all we are left with is to weigh the judgement of the two Pontiffs. I, personally, would always trust the judgement of Pius XII over Paul VI. You are free to go the other way if you like. My opinion (which is all either of us is really expressing) is that Paul VI’s prudential judgements (not, I will note, his magisterial and moral teachings) were almost uniformally bad.

God Bless

 

[zab]

October, 2004 From the [Congregation For Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacrament, Year of the Eucharist ](It is true that there are blessings, acts of worship and devotional practices, that are not to be done during the Mass (cf. De Benedictionibus, 28; De sacra communione, 83; Redemptionis Sacramentum, 75-79; Directory on Popular Piety, 13, 204). Yet it is none the less true that no Christian prayer can exist without referring to the Eucharist, the supreme prayer of the Church, and indispensable for Christians. The many forms of private prayer as well as the various expressions of popular piety accomplish their true sense by preparing for the Eucharistic celebration and in prolonging its effects in one’s life):

It is true that there are blessings, acts of worship and devotional practices, that are not to be done during the Mass (cf. De Benedictionibus, 28; De sacra communione, 83; Redemptionis Sacramentum, 75-79; Directory on Popular Piety, 13, 204). Yet it is none the less true that no Christian prayer can exist without referring to the Eucharist, the supreme prayer of the Church, and indispensable for Christians. The many forms of private prayer as well as the various expressions of popular piety accomplish their true sense by preparing for the Eucharistic celebration and in prolonging its effects in one’s life

 

[OhMalley]

Thank you for this. Given that the following came later than the documents which support the praying of the Rosary during the Mass one can conclude:

1. This document supersedes the other, earlier documents.
2. There is some is same validity to the argument about which language the Mass was celebrated in.

So I guess we can all stop pontificating if it’s OK to pray the Rosary during Mass. It’s not. Oh wait there’s one more:

1. No matter how strong the proof, some will continue to pray the Rosary during the Mass and argue that it’s OK to do so because that best fits their personal opinion of what the Church should allow. Cafeteria Catholicism.

Apostolic Exhortation of His Holiness Pope Paul VI,

MARIALIS CULTIS

#48 …the Rosary is an exercise of piety that draws its motivating force from the liturgy and leads naturally back to it, if practiced in conformity with its original inspiration.; It does not, however, become part of the liturgy. In fact, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary, by familiaring the hearts and minds of the faithful with the mysteries of Christ, can be an excellent preparation for the creation of those same mysteries in the liturgical action and an also become a continuing echo thereof. However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there.

See: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

October, 2004 From the Congregation For Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacrament, Year of the Eucharist :

It is true that there are blessings, acts of worship and devotional practices, that are not to be done during the Mass (cf. De Benedictionibus, 28; De sacra communione, 83; Redemptionis Sacramentum, 75-79; Directory on Popular Piety, 13, 204). Yet it is none the less true that no Christian prayer can exist without referring to the Eucharist, the supreme prayer of the Church, and indispensable for Christians. The many forms of private prayer as well as the various expressions of popular piety accomplish their true sense by preparing for the Eucharistic celebration and in prolonging its effects in one’s life.

 

[ac_claire]

Because the old documents came out at the time when the Mass was in Latin and active participation was not always possible.

The Mass hasn’t changed. The role of the laity, our active participation, involves praying and receiving our Lord in the Eucharist.

Some people are better able to focus their prayers on the Sacrifice at the altar by using the rosary. That’s what the rosary does, it assists us in praying. We Catholics are lucky that we have sacramentals for exactly that purpose. It’s really not that different than the way some people use Missals. (I use both, not at the same time, and occasionally will use no aids at all.)

Is it possible to be distracted and focused on other things while praying the rosary at Mass? Definitely, but it’s just as possible (in the case of some, more possible) to be distracted or focused on other things while sitting and watching the Mass without any prayer aids.

 

[ac_claire]

Thank you for this. Given that the following came later than the documents which support the praying of the Rosary during the Mass one can conclude:

1. This document supersedes the other, earlier documents.

It does? How does that work…?

1. There is some is same validity to the argument about which language the Mass was celebrated in.

So I guess we can all stop pontificating if it’s OK to pray the Rosary during Mass. It’s not.
Oh wait there’s one more:

1. No matter how strong the proof, some will continue to pray the Rosary during the Mass and argue that it’s OK to do so because that best fits their personal opinion of what the Church should allow. Cafeteria Catholicism.

Sorry but this isn’t anywhere close to being a strong point. The Church has never forbidden use of the Rosary to help the laity pray the Mass, and at least two documents have been shown which encourage it.

Where exactly is it forbidden? It’s not.

 

[OhMalley]

The Mass hasn’t changed. The role of the laity, our active participation, involves praying and receiving our Lord in the Eucharist.

Some people are better able to focus their prayers on the Sacrifice at the altar by using the rosary. That’s what the rosary does, it assists us in praying. We Catholics are lucky that we have sacramentals for exactly that purpose. It’s really not that different than the way some people use Missals. (I use both, not at the same time, and occasionally will use no aids at all.)

Is it possible to be distracted and focused on other things while praying the rosary at Mass? Definitely, but it’s just as possible (in the case of some, more possible) to be distracted or focused on other things while sitting and watching the Mass without any prayer aids.

Sure it has – at least from an audio-visual standpoint for the faithful. Hearing the Mass in the vernacular and seeing what’s taking place on the mensa of the altar rather than watching the priest’s back is quite a change indeed.

*"MARIALIS CULTIS

#48 …the Rosary is an exercise of piety that draws its motivating force from the liturgy and leads naturally back to it, if practiced in conformity with its original inspiration.; It does not, however, become part of the liturgy. In fact, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary, by familiaring the hearts and minds of the faithful with the mysteries of Christ, can be an excellent preparation for the creation of those same mysteries in the liturgical action and an also become a continuing echo thereof. However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there."*

 

[japhy]

Hearing the Mass in the vernacular and seeing what’s taking place on the mensa of the altar rather than watching the priest’s back is quite a change indeed.

Of those two changes, the second was never mentioned at all by Vatican II, and the first was not obligatory. It’s perfectly reasonable to attend a Mass in the Ordinary Form in which Latin is used (probably for the Ordinary) and the priest is ad orientem (at least for the Liturgy of the Eucharist).