Scared of speaking out Against Gay marriage?

[Rin]

I find it ridiculous when people rant about how LGBT is the PC way to say sodomite

It puzzles me why the same people don’t insist that we shouldn’t use the term ‘obese’, because it’s the PC way to say ‘glutton’. Also, by saying ‘obese’, we bind people to their sin.

That said, in reality, not all gluttons are obese, and not all obese people are gluttons. Similarly, not all LGB people are sodomites, and not all sodomites are LGB (or rather, precious few sodomites are LGB - the vast, vast majority are heterosexuals who never even touched someone of the same gender).

 

[MarkInOregon]

I hate teenagers. I hated being a teenager. I hate still being so close to my teenage years (I’m 20). Teenagers need to have it drilled into their skulls that they are inherently stupid and perpetually wrong. They need to resent their teenage years.
They sicken me so. Worthless, emotion-driven idiots ruining the future.

Wow. You haven’t described the two teenagers I have raised or the one I am currently raising and I hope not the two I still have to go in a few years. My oldest was and is quite smart was mostly rational as a teenager and normally correct. I haven’t found the teenagers I have raised or know to be anymore emotionally driven than many of the adults I know. I will give you irritating–there can be a smart aleck (sp) quality to them–but I think my son gets that from me–so I don’t know if I am ready to blame his being a teenager for it–though I would certainly like to.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Rau]

In real life I do in fact engage on topics like gay marriage. As to gay adoption my preferred solution is making sure all the kids get adopted by nice heterosexual couples leaving none for gay couples to adopt.

By being able to communicate with LGBT language it allows me to engage in civilized discourse devoid of acrimonious rants on either side. While I disagree with them on some matters it is clear that I am not their enemy and am genuinely concerned about their welfare.

I don’t promote gay romance, I note that it is possible for two people of the same sex to have a deep and loving relationship that is morally acceptable to the Church. To note such a thing does not compromise Church teaching in any way, it validates their feelings giving rapport and it reduces the distance between where they are and what we ask from insurmountable and unreasonable to doable and reasonable.

My deepest scorn is reserved for Pharisees which on this issue are overwhelmingly heterosexual and often blind to their own sins by hubris. I find it ridiculous when people rant about how LGBT is the PC way to say sodomite, that is because it is not theologically accurate to use sodomite as a synonym for homosexual acts and because it conflates temptation with sin which is heretical; I think we can agree that heresy is bad.

Joie, what are they key things you say to gay people to persuade them that same sex sexual relations are to be avoided?

 

[Rau]

Trying to tell a fifteen year old that his uncle and the uncle’s partner, who have been together for 25 years in a loving relationship, are sodomites and going to hell is going to go over as well as playing 1950’s country music at their prom.

Yep, you’ve have to be pretty dumb to say that. Is that really what sensible parents or educators would say? Or would they be able to acknowledge the committed devotion of the two persons, while also remarking that sexuality was designed for limited circumstances?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

In his book The Silence of Sodom: Homosexuality in Modern Catholicism (Univesity of Chicago Press, 2000), Washington University professor Mark Jordan makes a telling observation (pp. 45-46):

This always being talked about but rarely being spoken to is a common occurrence for LGBT people from many churches and many Christians can’t seem to refrain from talking about LGBT people in derogatory or condescending ways, using terms such as as “sodomites” or something similar.

Please read “Pastoral Ministry to Young People with Same-Sex Attraction” as it actually talks to LGBT youth.

It puzzles me why the same people don’t insist that we shouldn’t use the term ‘obese’, because it’s the PC way to say ‘glutton’. Also, by saying ‘obese’, we bind people to their sin.

That said, in reality, not all gluttons are obese, and not all obese people are gluttons. Similarly, not all LGB people are sodomites, and not all sodomites are LGB (or rather, precious few sodomites are LGB - the vast, vast majority are heterosexuals who never even touched someone of the same gender).

Obese people are “normal” and their sins are “relateäble” thus they are not attacked because that might hurt the feelings of someone they care about or even wind up attacking themselves.

Joie, what are they key things you say to gay people to persuade them that same sex sexual relations are to be avoided?

I don’t attack it head on instead I argue about how overrated and meaningless sex is, then after I’ve done that and mentioned about how fornication is intrinsically disordered is when I discuss what the Catechism teaches. By labeling fornication intrinsically disordered and discussing how it is so it means when I refer to gay sex as intrinsically disordered it isn’t seen as me trying to label gay people as mentally ill deviants. It can also be useful to attack heterosexuality via arguments by Foucault, Church Fathers, the Bible and logic as it allows you to show homosexuality is a construct in a way that manages to build credibility with the LGBT community instead of making you look like the bigoted fools who run around screaming homosexuality doesn’t really exist.

I admit my strategy probably seems weird to people, but it works so

 

[Rau]

…I don’t attack it head on instead I argue about how overrated and meaningless sex is, then after I’ve done that and mentioned about how fornication is intrinsically disordered is when I discuss what the Catechism teaches. By labeling fornication intrinsically disordered and discussing how it is so it means when I refer to gay sex as intrinsically disordered it isn’t seen as me trying to label gay people as mentally ill deviants.

I like the laying of the ground work in the above by establishing a baseline with fornication, and then moving on. But can you explain in what sense you mean sex is “overrated and meaningless”. Are you referring to specific contexts?

The next bit I don’t follow at all:

It can also be useful to attack heterosexuality via arguments by Foucault, Church Fathers, the Bible and logic as it allows you to show homosexuality is a construct in a way that manages to build credibility with the LGBT community

And I could not agree more with the following:

instead of making you look like the bigoted fools who run around screaming homosexuality doesn’t really exist.

 

[esieffe]

I’m a rather quiet fellow, and usually would only voice my opinion when asked. But I don’t really care too much about state marriages. I don’t want my religion mucked up by politics, so I try to keep them separated. I think of marriage as a sacrament, first and foremost, but imagine if other sacraments had a state equivalent. What if Baptism or Confirmation or Holy Orders was supported by the government? It’s like the Protestant Reformation, the Catholic Church was the only church in western Europe and her sacraments were the only valid ones. Then protestantism started showing up and claiming their sacraments were just as valid. I understand marriage lingered as a secular idea because of contracts between spouses and between families, but I feel its secular usefulness has run its course.

I am with you. I could care less what the state does, I just care about what the Church does. People have asked me when I fall silent during such discussions, what I think. I say, “I don’t care.” That really baffles them. Why don’t I care? Because I don’t have a desire to marry another male thats why. The state gives them a piece of paper. Fine. Now you are protected from your greedy “in-laws” should either of you die. I am fine as long as the church is not dragged into it. If it makes them feel better, so much the better, again, just don’t drag the church into it. That is off limits.

Do I dislike gays, no not at all, there is one in the family.

 

[esieffe]

Well, I can tell you as a Catechist of teens, it’s a touchy subject. We recently had a lesson on what the Church really teaches about people with SSA and the kids wigged out.
I mean, shouting at the catechists, making crazy accusations of hatred, asking things like
" How do YOU know what God wants anyway?"
“Gays are great because they adopt kids no one wants”
“Gays should be allowed to marry, I have gay friends and they are so cute!”
“What if there are gay people in the room? Don’t you think you’re offending them?”

Wow. Was a rough night.
People today have been led to believe that all Christians hate gays.

Nothing could be further from the truth. But this is why so few people even want to work with teenagers anymore.
But no, I’m not scared.
It’s not so much about being “against” gay marriage as teaching them that there is no such thing as marriage between the same sex. Marriage for many people has been redefined to suit. The church is pretty clear that marriage is between a man and a woman.
Young people have a hard time accepting this. In many cases, this is what tears them from the Church. It’s pretty sad.
But, one has to advance truth, no?

Great post Clare, I am a Catechist as well. The “co-teacher” We teach 4th graders. Thankfully and rightfully, that hasn’t come up, nor should it at that age. However had I been in your shoes that night, the debate might have gotten a bit hotter!

I keep my mouth shut out in the world… well about most things… but not when it comes to teaching Catholic doctrine. I must be doing it right because I get smiles and praise from kids co-teachers and parents. Maybe one day I will step up to the challenge of teens! What do you think?

 

[esieffe]

This is one of those topics that doesn’t come up in the workplace here. I haven’t heard it raised in my current workplace, nor in any I’ve previously been in.

Would I state my opinion? It depends on who is listening. There are a few very anti-Christian people who I would keep my mouth shut around. They wouldn’t bother to listen to what I actually thing but rather make assumptions and assume I hate anyone who is LGBT.

There are others I wouldn’t hesitate to tell. Oddly, the gays are all in the latter group. They know I’m a conservative Catholic. I know they’re gay and don’t consider it a sin. We get along fine anyway. It is only straight folks around I keep my mouth shut.

Everyone knows I’m a conservative Catholic however, so it isn’t hidden.

Even though more often then not I do not chime in on work place debates EVERYONE knows I am a Catholic. This is how I evangelize. I put out the welcome mat and I love to answer questions about our faith. Then… I talk.

The only debate question I will not pass up, which rarely comes up is pro-life. That is too important to stay silent on.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I like the laying of the ground work in the above by establishing a baseline with fornication, and then moving on. But can you explain in what sense you mean sex is “overrated and meaningless”. Are you referring to specific contexts?

I mean going in and explaining about how much society overvalues sex and how it isn’t necessary for a meaningful relationship. I also go in and use science to show how sex in fact clouds judgement regarding relationships by helping to cover up cracks until those cracks break the relationship.

The next bit I don’t follow at all:

Basically I attack heterosexuality proving that it is a construct and that homosexuality was created as a foil for heterosexuality. It is a bit complicated.

And I could not agree more with the following:

Okay

 

[Thorolfr]

I mean going in and explaining about how much society overvalues sex and how it isn’t necessary for a meaningful relationship. I also go in and use science to show how sex in fact clouds judgement regarding relationships by helping to cover up cracks until those cracks break the relationship.

Basically I attack heterosexuality proving that it is a construct and that homosexuality was created as a foil for heterosexuality. It is a bit complicated.

Okay

I can’t imagine how telling LGB people that sex is “overrated and meaningless” would be very convincing. To me, sex seems like a very strong and primal urge. That’s especially true when people are younger and the hormones are raging.

Also, to tell people that homosexuality is a “construct” doesn’t make much sense either. A lot things in our society are “constructs”. You should try reading Peter Berger and Thomas Luckmann, *The Social Construction of Reality: A Treatise in the Sociology of Knowledge *(Doubleday, 1966). Besides, “Homosexuality” is hardly more of a construct than the concept of “Sodomy” which was invented by Peter Damian and other Catholic theologians starting in the 11th century. Read Mark Jordan’s book, The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology (University of Chicago Press, 1997)

 

[WonderAndAwe]

I can’t imagine how telling LGB people that sex is “overrated and meaningless” would be very convincing. To me, sex seems like a very strong and primal urge. That’s especially true when people are younger and the hormones are raging.

Also, to tell people that homosexuality is a “construct” doesn’t make much sense either. A lot things in our society are “constructs”. You should try reading Peter Berger and Thomas Luckmann, *The Social Construction of Reality: A Treatise in the Sociology of Knowledge *(Doubleday, 1966). Besides, “Homosexuality” is hardly more of a construct than the concept of “Sodomy” which was invented by Peter Damian and other Catholic theologians starting in the 11th century. Read Mark Jordan’s book, The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology (University of Chicago Press, 1997)

The idea of social constructs is a social construct. If social constructs earn such ire among the pseudo-intellectual New Athiest do-what-you-feel crowd, then they must challenge the idea of calling things social constructs, leading to them realizing some things are intrinsic and cannot be simply whisked away by the fancies of the perpetually dead ideals of post-modern humanism.

 

[esieffe]

Emotional topics tend to “evoke disruption” if the students are paying attention.

Clearly, the teacher had their attention. That’s a good thing, in my opinion.

 

[pianistclare]

Great post Clare, I am a Catechist as well. The “co-teacher” We teach 4th graders. Thankfully and rightfully, that hasn’t come up, nor should it at that age. However had I been in your shoes that night, the debate might have gotten a bit hotter!

I keep my mouth shut out in the world… well about most things… but not when it comes to teaching Catholic doctrine. I must be doing it right because I get smiles and praise from kids co-teachers and parents. Maybe one day I will step up to the challenge of teens! What do you think?

Well, in all honesty, we simply advance what the Church teaches. Period. It was the students who started in on Gay Marriage. It wasn’t ever mentioned by me or anyone else.
We only spoke about dignity, non-bullying, and the love God has for all of His creation. They took it and went way off topic. We had to calm them, and gently remind them that no one is supposed to have extra marital sex. It’s about refraining from condemnation, but also living in truth.
As I have said many times before: truth is the most compassionate way. Many folks can be really preachy and heavy handed about these things. That’s when you lose people.
And our job as catechists is to talk about truth, and to gently lead them closer to Christ.
not to debate hot button topics in the news.
If they ask, we deal with it. We don’t censor anyone. They should feel it’s a safe place to ask questions. They know they’ll get straight talk from all of us on the CORE team. And from Father.
But always with love.
Step up to teens. They’re not the horrible hateful people that folks make them out to be. They are (in many cases) neglected children. They are wishing someone would give them something to hold on to. Many are left home alone for long periods of time, and have parents (like the boy whose macho father beat him) seeking affirmation, love, and truth. Always truth. It may be hard to hear, but they appreciate it. And they benefit greatly from someone who is living (or trying to live) as A Catholic in this crazy world. they really want to be ok with God’s word. They just don’t know how, and they don’t have many around them who are doing it. So they feel awkward. A safe place to talk is important to them. Many of these kids simply get dropped of at the church, out of obligation, a need for Confirmation, pressure from Grandparents, or a desire that we catechists “fix” them. Don’t get me wrong., many are from devout families and we need to support them too! They are up against many bad influences. Some of these kids only have online friends. Really really sad.
God bless you, E.

 

[fastenatingguy]

Well, in all honesty, we simply advance what the Church teaches. Period. It was the students who started in on Gay Marriage. It wasn’t ever mentioned by me or anyone else.
We only spoke about dignity, non-bullying, and the love God has for all of His creation. They took it and went way off topic. We had to calm them, and gently remind them that no one is supposed to have extra marital sex. It’s about refraining from condemnation, but also living in truth.
As I have said many times before: truth is the most compassionate way. Many folks can be really preachy and heavy handed about these things. That’s when you lose people.
And our job as catechists is to talk about truth, and to gently lead them closer to Christ.
not to debate hot button topics in the news.
If they ask, we deal with it. We don’t censor anyone. They should feel it’s a safe place to ask questions. They know they’ll get straight talk from all of us on the CORE team. And from Father.
But always with love.
Step up to teens. They’re not the horrible hateful people that folks make them out to be. They are (in many cases) neglected children. They are wishing someone would give them something to hold on to. Many are left home alone for long periods of time, and have parents (like the boy whose macho father beat him) seeking affirmation, love, and truth. Always truth. It may be hard to hear, but they appreciate it. And they benefit greatly from someone who is living (or trying to live) as A Catholic in this crazy world. they really want to be ok with God’s word. They just don’t know how, and they don’t have many around them who are doing it. So they feel awkward. A safe place to talk is important to them. Many of these kids simply get dropped of at the church, out of obligation, a need for Confirmation, pressure from Grandparents, or a desire that we catechists “fix” them. Don’t get me wrong., many are from devout families and we need to support them too! They are up against many bad influences. Some of these kids only have online friends. Really really sad.
God bless you, E.

Great post ------and that is why I would like your notes. Thanks!

 

[fastenatingguy]

Clare’s lesson plan may be excellent but she had problems executing it. You may wish to also consult with experienced teachers who are able to present emotional latent material without evoking disruption.

Not sure if you are expressing your opinion based on her post, or if you consulted with Clare’s students? In either case please offer a little more depth.

I will be attending a Christmas luncheon on Sunday of all our catechists and plan to consult with them too. I am very open to and always looking out for ANY effective ways to present the truth to teens. Then I do my best to present them to the class.

Another thing I started doing recently is using alums of my past classes and also our teen youth group as “testing grounds.”

 

[petra22]

Great post ------and that is why I would like your notes. Thanks!

 

[simpleas]

WHOA. You don’t even know me.
I am the DRE at the parish. Got years of experience, thanks for asking.
I didn’t have any problem executing it. The teens had a problem receiving the truth. They had already been indoctrinated by the Church of Popular Opinion. One has a moral obligation to teach the truth to those who are enrolled in a Catholic program. Whether or not they are well disposed to accepting it.
The pastor asked that the content be presented the way it was due to the suicide of a teen who was beaten by his father for being gay. People have no clue what the church says about everyone being a child of God. Especially kids who believe what the press says about Catholicism.

Thanks for your non-supportive, judgmental post.

I have no details about the story of the boy beaten by his father, but my first thought was the father had no idea of who God is.

 

[Samuel1998]

Thanks. At the end of the night, the Anglo kids refused to participate in the closing prayer, and stomped out, even to the point of texting each other about “disagreeing with Miss Clare, so let’s all wear LGBT colors next week to class”.
Conversely, the Mexican kids applauded.
:blushing:

Wow.That sounds awful

 

[pianistclare]

Wow.That sounds awful

After that, my pastor made a couple of calls to the parents of those kids who were disruptive and inciting the others, and since then. these same ones have been all smiles, polite, and eager to volunteer for anything we need. Go figure. Apparently these parents had little or no idea of what their children had already been indoctrinated with.
Many young people have the schools of reality TV and the internet as their babysitters and companions. There’s not really anyone around to discuss, explain, or refute certain ideologies that are advanced in popular culture.
Since then, there have also been a few of the teens who came forward after class and said that they were mortified at the lack of respect shown for the teachers, and in the end, the only kid who showed up in rainbow colors was the one came up with the idea.
She has since changed her tune, dramatically.
As others on the forum always say: pray for the children.