School nativity plays under threat

[blessedstar]

Christmas is Christmas. It is about the Incarnation, the birth, of Christ Jesus. If people don’t want to celebrate Christmas as it is truly defined then they may not celebrate it and rather just dive into all of its spiritless commercial excess. But if people desire to celebrate Christmas then let them find the true meaning of it and celebrate it as the Christian feast that it is and allow the little children to have their plays.

I have Muslim friends and they are not adverse to the Nativity, it doesn’t offend them. My friends come into my home which on the walls hangs Crucifix’s. They are not offended. I have attended carol services with these friends. Though we do not share the same beliefs my friends respect my faith and see it as one of the great faiths of the world and they believe that we love the same God. They have never said an offensive word to me about my Catholic faith.

What is wrong is that there are people in society who want everything to be ‘relative’ to them and seek to secularise society so that it becomes a spiritual void. In its attempts at political correctness it offends all people of faith because if they can do it to the Catholics and the Christians they will surely do it to all other faiths in due course and no-one will be able to express their beliefs. It is a course set for the eradication of God in society.

I have friends who have no faith and they are not offended by Jesus though they don’t believe in Him. One friend said to me ‘Hey I’m sorry about your Pope’ when Pope John Paul II died. She said she liked him because ‘he was a good man and tried to do good things’.

So we are left with the moral compass of Disney for Christmas and God is taken out of Christmas, then friends, there is no Christmas, because Jesus is Christmas.

The climate in my country is appalling. The secular powers are attempting to drown out God and they are making great headway and every manner of greed, power, sex is exalted and the human is replacing God as something to be worshipped, that is, self worship.

I had to endure once a meeting to discuss Christmas Cards that would be sent out to all the poeple who work for an organisation. Quite a few people said it should not have the Nativity on it because that would offend people. I said well don’t bother sending ‘Christmas’ cards then, just send them a Happy New Year card. In the end they sent the card with the Nativity on it and not one person complained. This perceived ‘offending’ is not experienced by most rational people, they can simply just accept that this is the reason for the season and don’t mind one way or the other. However those who are offended are the fanatics and haters who don’t care or give a fig who they hate and how their hate is reshaping society for the very worse.

Such hate leads to ‘ethnic’ cleansing, leads to genocide, leads to war, leads to dehumanisation, leads to religious suppression and leads to self-destruction.

Our children are being taught to exclude all concept of God in society and this will lead to great distress long term for humanity.

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[Wolseley]

Is what happens or not in Saudi the test of all policy, everywhere, for all time?

Merely pointing out the difference. The Saudis have the good sense to proclaim their religion, and if anybody else doesn’t happen to like it, tough toenails. Christians (and Jews, too) would be better off following the same policy instead of both of them abandoning their religion to worship political correctness.

Jewish children in secular schools in the UK (or anywhere else in Europe) have to be proselytized by Christians because, hey, if they were in Saudi they’d be beheaded for being Jewish - riigghhht, makes perfect sense.

I already said that the UK should establish educational segregation. I’m sure that Jews don’t want their kids being proselytized in a Christian school any more than Christians want their kids being proselytized in a Muslim school. Ensuring that everyone sticks to their own kind would solve that problem now, wouldn’t it? And by the way, you can agree or disagree with me as you please, Kaninchen, but there’s no need to be snotty.

 

[Kaninchen]

And you feel jewish kids are being proselytized to in the UK secular schools?

Not if they don’t have things like nativity plays, no. If they’re in a world of re-enactment of the ‘Baby Jesus’ story, then they are - we are talking about schools for children from 4 through 10 years old, you know.

Really here in the US especially the town I live in the Yeshivas are where the Orthodox Jews send their kids for schooling (HS age) and they send their kids to Jewish Day Schools for K-8.

Which has nothing to do with the issue we’re talking about - state provided general education schools - if parents of Christian children at such schools want to do nativity plays, they could go to Christian yeshiva, known as Sunday School, I believe.

 

[Kaninchen]

I already said that the UK should establish educational segregation.

How can I express this properly, without appearing to be seen as being ‘snotty’?

Let’s see:

The UK has had educational segregation for a couple of hundred years! There are state-funded religious affiliated schools (very mainly Catholic and Anglican - there are few places where a Catholic child would not be able to go to a Catholic school for free - with a very few Jewish and Islamic schools) and state-funded non-religiously affiliated schools.

We are talking about the non-religiously affiliated schools.

It should also be remembered that less than 10% of the population could be described as regularly religiously observant - those with no beliefs have their rights too.

I’m sure that Jews don’t want their kids being proselytized in a Christian school any more than Christians want their kids being proselytized in a Muslim school.

The issue is proselytizing in non-religiously affiliated schools.

 

[Naztakuan]

instead of it being refferred to as proselytizing, couldn’t it just be percieved as a story? Without the indicatin that it’s “preaching” to anyone. I mean sure it’s a story that centers around a religion but since you don’t believe in it couldn’t ppl just look at it the way we look at the stories about Greek gods in literature class? After all, that was a widely practiced religion in both Greece and Rome at some point and now most junior highschools mandate it as required reading. In fact not to long ago there was an article in a magazine debating whether biblical books could be studied as literature and not as religious text.they do it at some colleges along with the Quaran. It’s just a different way to look at it.

 

[Kaninchen]

instead of it being refferred to as proselytizing, couldn’t it just be percieved as a story? Without the indicatin that it’s “preaching” to anyone. I mean sure it’s a story that centers around a religion but since you don’t believe in it couldn’t ppl just look at it the way we look at the stories about Greek gods in literature class? After all, that was a widely practiced religion in both Greece and Rome at some point and now most junior highschools mandate it as required reading. In fact not to long ago there was an article in a magazine debating whether biblical books could be studied as literature and not as religious text.they do it at some colleges along with the Quaran. It’s just a different way to look at it.

Well, obviously, as a Jew, I consider the whole Jesus story, from beginning to end, as the equivalent of Greek or Roman Myth - however, I think that Christian parents might be slightly (possibly justifiably) miffed by teachers saying to a group of 6-year olds: “Hey kids, how about we act out some old myth!”

Perhaps at Easter, all the kids could act out the Muslim story of Jesus being rescued from death and carried away to India?

On the other hand, perhaps we might leave sophisticated interpretations of religious stories to a somewhat later age group?

 

[Naztakuan]

Well yeah but…why would you pick a religious holiday in order to act out a play that has nothing to do with it? The way I see it Easter and Christmas are religious holidays. So if the play is upsetting then so is the holiday. Thanksgiving is not, Veterans day is not. Columbus day is not. But the two bigguns Christmas and Easter are. There isn’t much way around that. Most people seek to remedy the issue by making the holiday materialistic. A Woman told me once that she would rather her daughter research and know the religius meaning behind Christmas than to associate it with materialism and Consumerism. I’m not sure if this woman was of any particular faith at all but she told me that materialism bothered her more than the Christmas message which is what? A poor jewish family gives birth to a child in a barn? The nativity play is rather short. you got the angel in there telling mary she’s pregnant, she gives birth, a bunch of ppl come to see the baby, bring him gifts, happy happy happy the end. Now the Passion play is more of a concern for various reasons. In fact I’ve never seen a Catholic performance of the Passion in any church or school or camp. However when I went to a protestant camp it was something they performed regularly in the summer. Plus the content is far too mature for children to enact. I’ve only seen adults enact the passion/easter play. Most Easter plays I’ve seen have nothing directly to do with that story. It’s usually something about spring. But again many American public (state)schools do not even have the funds to do anything for any holiday anyway. if you want to have a party it has to organised by the students themselves.

 

[Kaninchen]

Well yeah but…why would you pick a religious holiday in order to act out a play that has nothing to do with it?

It’s not a religious holiday if you’re not Christian, it’s just a holiday.

Meanwhile, what we’re talking about is what happens in (non-religiously affiliated) schools (for young children) in the United Kingdom, which may be less packed with those ‘deus ex machina’ non-Christians (who think that a dose of Christianity would be a wonderful thing for their kids) than the United States.

The nativity play is rather short. you got the angel in there telling mary she’s pregnant, she gives birth, a bunch of ppl come to see the baby, bring him gifts, happy happy happy the end.

Perhaps you have to be Jewish to see the problem with stories about women being impregnated by Gods and giving birth to Gods!

---

Meanwhile, what’s wrong with Christian kids enacting stories about Jesus being rescued and taken off to India then?

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Perhaps you have to be Jewish to see the problem with stories about women being impregnated by Gods and giving birth to Gods!

Perhaps your right, but then perhaps you have to be Catholic to see the problems about people saying Jesus is not the Messiah

 

[Kaninchen]

Perhaps your right, but then perhaps you have to be Catholic to see the problems about people saying Jesus is not the Messiah

Hm, I’ve known a few non-Catholic Christians and they think he was Messiah.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Hm, I’ve known a few non-Catholic Christians and they think he was Messiah.

Yes I even know some Jews that think he is the Messiah

 

[Kaninchen]

Yes I even know some Jews that think he is the Messiah

They’re called Christians.

 

[mlchance]

If a Christian chooses to live in a secular society, should he reasonably expect that the society, its culture and its social traditions be modified for his benefit?

Perhaps not, but it does bear remembering that Christmas is a Christian holiday celebrated by oodles of people – including many who aren’t Christian. A school putting on a Nativity play isn’t pushing religion. It’s acknowledging the undeniable fact that Christmas is a holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.

Don’t like it? Don’t attend.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Kaninchen]

Perhaps not, but it does bear remembering that Christmas is a Christian holiday celebrated by oodles of people – including many who aren’t Christian.

More like the celebration of the Great God Mammon in most places.

A school putting on a Nativity play isn’t pushing religion.

That’s a matter of perception/perspective. To you, as a Christian, it isn’t, to me as a Jew, it is.

Don’t like it? Don’t attend.

We’re talking about dramas in schools (non-religiously affiliated) for young children, it’s not a matter of parental attendance, it’s a matter of children’s participation (or being excluded from a drama experience because of the religious aspect of the drama).

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

They’re called Christians.

LOL!
That is not what they call themselves…but as a jew if it makes you feel better to call them Christians than by all means

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

.

We’re talking about dramas in schools (non-religiously affiliated) for young children, it’s not a matter of parental attendance, it’s a matter of children’s participation (or being excluded from a drama experience because of the religious aspect of the drama).

Let me ask do you discuss or do anything for Hanukkah in the UK public schools?
Give out geld in the classroom/spin a dreidel or two, share some latkas? Sing some songs?

 

[mlchance]

More like the celebration of the Great God Mammon in most places.

Irrelevant.

That’s a matter of perception/perspective. To you, as a Christian, it isn’t, to me as a Jew, it is.

Then grow thicker skin? Realize that your perception doesn’t define reality? Give the other people – even if they are Christians – the benefit of the doubt?

We’re talking about dramas in schools (non-religiously affiliated) for young children, it’s not a matter of parental attendance, it’s a matter of children’s participation (or being excluded from a drama experience because of the religious aspect of the drama).

All children get to participate? That must be a busy manger. If not, children not participating is already in the cards. Want your child to participate in a drama? Write and direct a student presentation of the origin of Hannakuh. Write and direct some suitably non-religious drama that will be dull enough to not offend anyone at all. Have your child participate in some other drama at another time of the year.

Lots of options besides suppressing the religion expression of Christian children.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Kaninchen]

LOL!
That is not what they call themselves…but as a jew if it makes you feel better to call them Christians than by all means

There are people who call themselves Catholics - ‘Catholics for Choice’ for example, who other Catholics would regard as having excluded themselves from being ‘Catholic’.

It’s not a matter of feeling better.

 

[Kaninchen]

Irrelevant.

To you, perhaps.

Then grow thicker skin?

Why don’t the people complaining about nativity plays being dropped just ‘grow a thicker skin’?

Realize that your perception doesn’t define reality? Give the other people – even if they are Christians – the benefit of the doubt?

See above.

Lots of options besides suppressing the religion expression of Christian children

Please note that, in the UK, there are large numbers of Catholic and Church of England schools, we’re talking in this thread about the ‘secular’ schools, not the Christian schools.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Kaninchen-

I asked this above but perhaps you missed it…

what do the public/secular school in the UK do in regards to the fesitval of lights? Give out geld in the classroom/spin a dreidel or two, share some latkas? Sing some songs? Or nothing?