Science & Religion

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No, DavidV, this is not a crossing of a boundary. Think of it this way: some Christians hold the theory that the entire human species is descended from one breeding pair, named “Adam and Eve.” Aztecs in the sixteenth century held the theory that the sun would not rise unless human hearts were ripped out of the chests of victims to nourish the sun with human blood.

I’m sure you would agree that it is not illegitimate of modern-day astronomers to evaluate and reject the Aztec theory about the necessity of sun sacrifice. So how is it any less legitimate for modern-day geneticists to evaluate and reject the Christian theory about descent from a single pair named Adam and Eve?

StAnastasia
On the one hand that’s true but on the other hand the religion of the Aztecs doesn’t exist anymore(they were forced to change religions 😉 )
Christianity is based on the belief that we all descended from Adam and Eve. If Christians get rid of this belief, what is left? The whole belief system is based on claim that the first two humans disobeyed God. If the Church admits that Adam and Eve never existed, they would admit that there was never a fall, sin doesn’t exist and the existence of Jesus wasn’t necessary. That would more or less get rid of the whole belief system.
 
May I gently remind you that without a real actual Adam committing a real actual sin against God, there would be no need for an Easter Vigil.
Of course there was a real Adam. “Adam” means “man” or “humankind,” and humankind did indeed commit a real actual sin against God. As our species emerged during the paleolithic and neolithic periods, we came into moral awareness, and committed many sins. Hence the need for the Incarnation of God in Christ, and hence the Easter Vigil.
 
Intriguing question. We do have Neanderthal DNA in the human genome; perhaps the two species were too close to remain truly independent and both survive. One would ultimately be either eliminated or assimilated by the other.
Then again science is advancing everyday. Scientists say they want to created a mammoth within the next five years. They failed several times but developed new methods. I’m pretty sure if they can clone a mammoth, it won’t take long until they clone a Neanderthal.
 
You’re making up falsehoods about me again. Where did I “make it clear that I reject the ‘Fall’”?
Please, since there are many versions of the “Fall” right here on CAF, would you mind sharing which version you accept since it is apparent that you do not accept the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition’s presentation of Original Sin. I say this because in your post 1476, you referred to granny and the Catechism and their own constituency.
 
On the one hand that’s true but on the other hand the religion of the Aztecs doesn’t exist anymore(they were forced to change religions 😉 )
Christianity is based on the belief that we all descended from Adam and Eve. If Christians get rid of this belief, what is left? The whole belief system is based on claim that the first two humans disobeyed God. If the Church admits that Adam and Eve never existed, they would admit that there was never a fall, sin doesn’t exist and the existence of Jesus wasn’t necessary. That would more or less get rid of the whole belief system.
Lui, that simply is not true. It’s an old Protestant creationist ploy to say that “if there was never a fall, sin doesn’t exist and the existence of Jesus wasn’t necessary.” I don’t know of any Catholic theologians who take such as simplistic approach.

Of course, creationists like this are welcome to take this line; the Church is a “big tent” that can accommodate a variety of theological perspectives. Such creationists probably won’t get jobs in science, but they probably wouldn’t want them anyway, and there are plenty of great careers that do not require training in biology or genetics.

StAnastasia
 
Then again science is advancing everyday. Scientists say they want to created a mammoth within the next five years. They failed several times but developed new methods. I’m pretty sure if they can clone a mammoth, it won’t take long until they clone a Neanderthal.
I’m sure they will try, but there may be significant moral objections to this, as there are with the cloning of humans.
 
Lui, that simply is not true. It’s an old Protestant creationist ploy to say that “if there was never a fall, sin doesn’t exist and the existence of Jesus wasn’t necessary.” I don’t know of any Catholic theologians who take such as simplistic approach.
Then why does the Church teach that Adam and Eve were real people? I thought it was a MUST to believe this.
 
Information about the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

This Catechism presents “a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life." (Apostolic Letter Laetamur Magnopere)

This Catechism’s express purpose is to “illumine with the light of faith the new situations and problems which had not yet emerged in the past.” (Apostolic Constitution Fidei Depositum)
 
I’m sure they will try, but there may be significant moral objections to this, as there are with the cloning of humans.
I can imagine there will be moral objections but if it is possible, it WILL be done. What I wonder is if this does happen and we would suddenly have a species that is almost as intelligent(or equally intelligent) as humans, what the Church will say about these people. I mean they DID exist and they were highly intelligent. Does the Church have an opinion if they had a soul and what would they say if they would exist again and would be able to communicate on an intellectual level and understand the concept of God? Would the Church acknowledge that they have a soul too?

It really makes me wonder.
 
Truth is independent of the audience in which it is presented, otherwise it is not truth.

I believe you present a false dicotomy in the first paragraph above. When a scientist denies the Church’s dogma of a single pair of the first humans, they have crossed boundry between fact and supposition. Their position may be based on evidence. But this evidence spotty at best. How could any any of the physical evidence provide any evidence of the soul - that part of us that makes us uniquely human?
I totally respect the scientists who deal with humanity. However, it needs to be pointed out that many assumptions are made when dealing with “evidence” going millions and millions of years backwards.
 
Alas - IDvolution. 👍
Be careful Buffalo. There is that hint that the spiritual soul was not created directly by God. There is also that hint that humanity formed from 10,000 breeding pairs over centuries.
 
I believe God called the universe into existence. Whether this creatio ex nihilio occurred 13.7 billion years ago or earlier, or whether we need to look to preconditions of the Big Bang is immaterial. However it came about, creation is ontologically dependent upon the God who created it.

I believe that God worked through the secondary causes of astronomical chance and of evolution by natural selection to call into being a moral and spiritual response to God’s creative generosity. On our planet the being that evolved to offer this moral and spiritual response was a mammal, in particular a primate. Perhaps elsewhere in the universe – where conditions and contingencies are different – God called forth some other type of being, perhaps a large-brained marsupial or a bipedal reptile. As the “imago Dei” humans do not reflect a particular physiognomy of God, but rather attributes such as moral and spiritual awareness and the possibility of living in graced love.

From the theological perspective, humans as *imago Dei *embody the moral and spiritual response called forth by God from creation. The Incarnation is the supreme terrestrial expression of this response: in the person of Jesus, God assumed the quarks of the Big Bang, the dust of supernovae explosions, the organic molecules of dinosaurs and mammals, and the long history of the primate genome. In an evolutionary paraphrase of St. Gregory of Nazianzus, God assumes creation by becoming incarnate at its heart in a human person, Jesus Christ. Karl Rahner noted the significance of this affirmation:
The point at which God in a final self-communication irrevocably and definitively lays hold on the totality of the reality created by him is characterized not as spirit but as flesh. It is this which authorizes the Christian to integrate the history of salvation into the history of the cosmos.

Indeed, in Catholic perspective creation is necessarily the domain of God’s redemptive work, capable of bearing the incarnation and of being transfigured in turn by that creation. Jesus unites in his person the Godhead and the evolutionary history of the cosmos.

StAnastasia
What do you mean by God assumes creation?
And what theology is the basis for the last paragraph?
Where does the above mention the body and soul of human nature?

When you use the word Christian in this sentence: “It is this which authorizes the Christian to integrate the history of salvation into the history of the cosmos.” You may be absolutely right because I do not know what all the thousands of Christian faith communities believe. Technically, Catholicism does not integrate the history of salvation into the history of the cosmos.

In ordinary folk talk, what is being said is that some, not all, people are pressuring the Catholic Church to drop its basic doctrines in order to agree with the evolution model about human nature.

While I accept and appreciate what the evolution model has done for the good of society, I cannot accept the type of evolution that says dogmatically that we came from 10,000 breeding pairs as if God were non-existent.
 
While I accept and appreciate what the evolution model has done for the good of society, I cannot accept the type of evolution that says dogmatically that we came from 10,000 breeding pairs as if God were non-existent.
What I don’t get about this statement is why evolution that says that humans evolved over time and came from thousands of breeding pairs, automatically means there is no God. Maybe there is a God but the Adam and Eve story just isn’t true.

It’s not like there are only two options.
 
I meant that evolution is a pretty much established explanation how life developed on earth. If Christians believe that humans are different than animals and have a soul, then that is their personal belief but in the science community a human(Homo sapien sapien) is just regarded as a primate who happens to be much more intelligent than his other cousin, chimps, bonobos, gorillas etc.
That is known as different in degrees verses different in kind in the scientific community.

Somewhere, probably on an old evolution thread, there is some actual scientific research which was either “monkeys are as smart as college students” or "college students are as smart as monkeys. This research involved the mathematic ability of both real college students and some really advanced thinking monkeys – I forget the species.

Sure enough, the research tests showed that monkeys are just as smart as college students when it comes to mathematics. Incidentally, both monkeys and college students had to undergo training for the mathematical section of the research.
 
Somewhere, probably on an old evolution thread, there is some actual scientific research which was either “monkeys are as smart as college students” or "college students are as smart as monkeys.
Small correction: chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans and gorillas aren’t monkeys;). I always feel people use the term monkey to make the connection between man and chimpanzee sound ridiculous.
 
ALL your links are propaganda but creationist theme parks actually exist.
More propaganda from Buffalo. 😉

:hmmm: This is propaganda? I have touched upon this many many times. Read carefully.

The next evolutionary synthesis: from Lamarck and Darwin to genomic variation and systems biology

…While the evolutionary
synthesis is of course compatible with evolution, the evidence to support it is actually much
thinner than is generally supposed; this is mainly because data is hard to come by in processes
that are intrinsically slow and rare. One line of supporting evidence is the existence of ring
species such as the various greenish warblers around the Himalayas where neighbouring
subspecies around the ring can interbreed, but there is a break point where the two adjacent
ones, although members of the same family, cannot and so have to be viewed as separate
species [2]. A line of work that the evolutionary synthesis cannot explain so easily is
Waddington’s remarkable set of experiments on selection [3]. The most famous of these
involved first making a phenocopy of the bithorax mutation (a four-winged fly instead of one
with two wings and two halteres) by ether treatment of wild-type flies and then interbreeding
these phenocopies under strong selection (rejecting all offspring that didn’t produce the ether
phenocopy). He found that, after ~20 generations of interbreeding and selection, he had a
population where the four-winged flies bred true without further ether treatment. Waddington
called this process, which was too fast to be initiated by novel mutations, genetic assimilation.
There is a serious underlying problem with the evolutionary synthesis: it is based on a
minimalist Mendelian view of genetics which assumes that a very small number of genes
underpin a trait and a mutant gene leads to an abnormal phenotype. While the advantage of
the formulation is that it provides a model for evolutionary genetics [4], the disadvantage is
that the approach assumes a naively simplistic view of how genes generate traits, as
Waddington pointed out in the ‘50s [5]. If more than about three genes (nature unspecified)
underpin a phenotype, the mathematics of population genetics, while qualitatively analyzable,
requires too many unknown parameters to make quantitatively testable predictions [6]. The
inadequacy of this approach is demonstrated by illustrations of the molecular pathways that
generates traits [7]: the network underpinning something as simple as growth may have forty
or fifty participating proteins whose production involves perhaps twice as many DNA
sequences, if one includes enhancers, splice variants etc. Theoretical genetics simply cannot
handle this level of complexity, let alone analyse the effects of mutation.
 
and yet more propoganda…

Chromosome Centromeres Are Inherited Epigenetically

…Despite being up to several million DNA building blocks in size, centromeres can “jump” to other positions without causing the DNA to move. Consequently, in rare cases, a new centromere can arise as it has already occurred in a closely-related ape species. Therefore neo-centromeres might contribute to the emergence of new species.
 
Of course there was a real Adam. “Adam” means “man” or “humankind,” and humankind did indeed commit a real actual sin against God. As our species emerged during the paleolithic and neolithic periods, we came into moral awareness, and committed many sins. Hence the need for the Incarnation of God in Christ, and hence the Easter Vigil.
Catholicism teaches the difference between a contracted sin and personal sin.

After the sin of Adam, the only type of sin humans could commit would be personal sins. These sins do not have the significance of original sin. Therefore, there would be no need for the incarnation. Of course, one could say that there was a human named Jesus who was a prophet among prophets. This means that essentially Jesus was not God.

When one gets rid of the fancy fluff (for example post 1501)…and then one seriously studies the implications of 10,000 breeding pairs, one will eventually see the serious attack on God and the truth of Divine Revelation coming from within the Catholic Church itself. There really are wolves in sheep clothing.

On the good side. Jesus Christ is really God and He is really present in the Catholic Eucharist. In the midst of the battle against the existence of God as Creator of our own human nature, we need to hold on to the bottom of the cross because that is where our true Savior is.
 
No, DavidV, this is not a crossing of a boundary.
Why?
Think of it this way: some Christians hold the theory
Why to you call it a theory? The Church has defined it as truth.
that the entire human species is descended from one breeding pair, named “Adam and Eve.” Aztecs in the sixteenth century held the theory that the sun would not rise unless human hearts were ripped out of the chests of victims to nourish the sun with human blood.
Did the Aztecs have a Holy Spirit led Magisterium that was protected from error?
I’m sure you would agree that it is not illegitimate of modern-day astronomers to evaluate and reject the Aztec theory about the necessity of sun sacrifice. So how is it any less legitimate for modern-day geneticists to evaluate and reject the Christian theory about descent from a single pair named Adam and Eve?

StAnastasia
Why are you asking me compare apples and oranges and then ask me to claim they are the same?
 
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