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Interesting…

Laszlo Bencze: Believed without evidence, Darwinism is metaphysics

Thinking about “Tales from the quote mine: Leading Darwinists believe, with or withoutt evidence – and why it matters,” philosopher and photographer Laszlo Bencze notes Richard Dawkins’ remark,
Instead of examining the evidence for and against rival theories, I shall adopt a more armchair approach. My argument will be that Darwinism is the only known theory that is in principle capable of explaining certain aspects of life. If I am right it means that, even if there were no actual evidence in favour of the Darwinian theory (there is, of course) we should still be justified in preferring it over all rival theories – p. 287, Blind Watchmaker
and comments,
It seems to me that once a person claims that a theory is in no need of evidence, that theory is no longer scientific but must necessarily be metaphysical. This is how Karl Popper would have explained Dawkins’ proposal. The distinguishing characteristic of a scientific theory is its capability of being tested and of course the converse is true for a metaphysical theory—it cannot be tested.
Though metaphysical theories cannot be tested they remain subject to criticism. Moreover, when criticized some metaphysical theories fare better than others, in many cases much better.
If we return to a cosmological disputation of the pre Socratics, some argued that the earth must be drum shaped because if one ascended a hill, it was possible to survey a large circular area that appeared to be flat. Anaximander or Thales (it’s uncertain which) argued for a spherical earth based purely on abstract and speculative reasoning. Both theories were metaphysical yet an abstract critique trumped observation in this case.
So if we regard both Darwinism and Intelligent Design as purely metaphysical theories, we might analyze them in this way:
Darwinism claims that the abrupt and significant increases in information which characterize the history of life can result from unguided, random processes taking place on the lowest level of living things: the chemical level of the genes. There is no analogue to such a transformation in any process which has ever been observed in real time. Furthermore, the laws of probability argue strongly against it.
Intelligent Design claims these abrupt increases in information are caused by the actions of an intelligent agent. There are countless instances of intelligent agents increasing information. It is a fact of everyday life and easily observed.
**Thus, even if no evidence can support either claim because both are metaphysical, then logic alone would argue in favor of ID theory. 👍
**
However, the fact is that innumerable observations cast serious doubt on the claims of Darwinism. It is furthermore interesting that virtually all of these negative observations have been made by evolution supporters (who then attempt to explain them away). Therefore, it seems the “reasonable man” ought to follow David Berlinski’s lead and regard evolution as nothing more than a highly speculative metaphysical theory which has failed to deliver on its promises and can be discarded as having any significant relevance to the history of life on earth.
 
Lui, that simply is not true. It’s an old Protestant creationist ploy to say that “if there was never a fall, sin doesn’t exist and the existence of Jesus wasn’t necessary.” I don’t know of any Catholic theologians who take such as simplistic approach.
Long before Protestants, Catholicism, in the person of St. Paul, was teaching the relationship between Adam and the coming of Jesus Christ, True God and True man.
One should actually check the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 404 for a very interesting singular insight into the real position of Adam.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Catholic theologians, sad to say, can also choose to be wolves in sheep clothing. That is why the Catechism is so important when one wants to know the truth.
 
On the good side. Jesus Christ is really God and He is really present in the Catholic Eucharist. In the midst of the battle against the existence of God as Creator of our own human nature, we need to hold on to the bottom of the cross because that is where our true Savior is.
Granny, although you constantly create and spread falsehoods about what I write, at least you recognize that Jesus is truly God and truly present in the Eucharist. That is a good first step toward the truth!
 
What do you mean by God assumes creation?
“What is not assumed is not redeemed.” St. Gregory Nazianzus.
And what theology is the basis for the last paragraph?
Patristic theology.
When you use the word Christian in this sentence: “It is this which authorizes the Christian to integrate the history of salvation into the history of the cosmos.” You may be absolutely right because I do not know what all the thousands of Christian faith communities believe.
Fundies don’t, but Catholics do.
Technically, Catholicism does not integrate the history of salvation into the history of the cosmos.
It does, indeed.
In ordinary folk talk, what is being said is that some, not all, people are pressuring the Catholic Church to drop its basic doctrines in order to agree with the evolution model about human nature.
False.
While I accept and appreciate what the evolution model has done for the good of society, I cannot accept the type of evolution that says dogmatically that we came from 10,000 breeding pairs as if God were non-existent.
False again. God is very much involved in creation!
 
Small correction: chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans and gorillas aren’t monkeys;). I always feel people use the term monkey to make the connection between man and chimpanzee sound ridiculous.
Monkeys are a general lay term. As I said, I did not remember the species. My apology if I confused you.

I also realized that I used a popular media type classification of the research instead of finding the actual title and the abstract or introduction. However, it has been my disappointing experience, that for the most part CAF posters aren’t interested in understanding real science. Even when I posted an easy to read section, no one caught on to what was actually happening.

I do have to say that the researches did their best to prove their hypothesis. As a result, they did demonstrate that the “animals” could learn some “mathematical concepts” just like the college students. In addition, the researchers proved that animals still have a highly developed sentience. I believe that this is one more reason why animals deserve good treatment.
 
What I don’t get about this statement is why evolution that says that humans evolved over time and came from thousands of breeding pairs, automatically means there is no God. Maybe there is a God but the Adam and Eve story just isn’t true.

It’s not like there are only two options.
What the 10,000 breeding pairs means is that God did not participate in creating human nature. Maybe He was on vacation. Sorry God, I couldn’t resist that comment.

Actually, the total human creating population is quite higher over the centuries. It all depends on the initial assumptions of the researcher. The issue immediately at hand is not Adam and Eve. The issue is what constitutes human nature, period.

When it comes to human nature, there are only two options. Either human’s spiritual soul exists because God necessarily created it or it doesn’t exist because according to evolution theory, the spiritual soul is not a necessary part of human nature because everything emerges from an evovling material anatomy.

Denying the existence of the soul is an easy lead in to denying the existence of God.
On the other hand one should not assume that this is automatic because humans can make rational decisions regarding the purpose of human life.
 
What the 10,000 breeding pairs means is that God did not participate in creating human nature. Maybe He was on vacation
False and unbelievably simplistic.
When it comes to human nature, there are only two options. Either human’s spiritual soul exists because God necessarily created it or it doesn’t exist because according to evolution theory, the spiritual soul is not a necessary part of human nature because everything emerges from an evovling material anatomy.
A false and utterly simplistic dichotomy.
Denying the existence of the soul is an easy lead in to denying the existence of God.
Who has denied the existence of God?
 
I will rephrase. What did St. Gregory Nazianzua mean by “God assumes creation”?
In the Incarnation God took on all of creation, in taking on human flesh. In Christ God reconciled the world to Himself. Gregory of Nazianzus, Epistle 51, to Cledonius.
 
Monkeys are a general lay term. As I said, I did not remember the species. My apology if I confused you.
Actually chimps etc are apes and not monkeys at all. Monkeys and apes are both primates, but technically so are humans.
I guess the species they talked about was a chimpanzee because they are quite intelligent. They actually can learn sign language and teach it to other chimps. They can also memorize symbols quite fast(faster than humans): youtube.com/watch?v=zJAH4ZJBiN8&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLA64840301ADE8982
 
Not at all!
My error. It is the spiritual soul created by God which is skipped.

Ooops, I guess I should mention that the new evolution theory is that “souls” emerge from the material anatomy in bits and pieces over centuries as the 10,000 breeding pairs mate. Dang! “Bits and pieces” doesn’t sound right, so how does one describe the evolution of the material soul?

Fossils show that the pre-human anatomy did not evolve completely at one time. Even brain sizes evolved according to the measurements of the scull or pieces of it.
So if the material anatomy evolved, why can’t the material soul evolve. That’s right, the material soul does evolve according to natural selection just like the genes. This is why there is soul talk about something developing consciousness and awareness over time.

A real problem develops when one believes in God. It is easy to see God creating the motion of material creation. However, God is a pure spirit so how do material objects relate to God? Material objects are not on the same level as God, obviously. Otherwise we would have trees creating stars.:eek:

Here’s another weird thing to consider. Catholicism teaches that God created humans so that they could live in eternal love with God. Obviously, in order to live with God, humans must have the means to live on God’s level. In other words, humans need something that is like God or is in God’s image so that the two can communicate. This means that humans must have some kind of spiritual principle in their nature.

Since evolution science classifies humans as only material vertebrate primates, what can humans do in order to have the spiritual intellective power to know God and the spiritual will to choose God?

My apology for being silly. My point is that the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, has a far easier way of describing human nature and its purpose in paragraphs 355-421.

The bottom line is that the soul is not material; it is spiritual. The spiritual soul does not evolve; it is an individual gift from a transcendent pure spirit, personal God.😃
 
Actually chimps etc are apes and not monkeys at all. Monkeys and apes are both primates, but technically so are humans.
I guess the species they talked about was a chimpanzee because they are quite intelligent. They actually can learn sign language and teach it to other chimps. They can also memorize symbols quite fast(faster than humans): youtube.com/watch?v=zJAH4ZJBiN8&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLA64840301ADE8982
I found it.👍
I used the research to demonstrate the significant difference between humans and animals.

To put this in the context of science and religion–

What this particular paper did was to demonstrate that when science actually tries to compare human beings with animals, the real difference does not show up within the boundaries of the empirical method. Science can only go so far with materials and methods in an individual research project.

Catholicism accounts for the real difference as being the presence of a spiritual rational soul which can only have been created by God and not by 10,000 breeding pairs.

This is from the research:
"Nonhuman primate subjects were two adult female rhesus macaques, named Feinstein and Boxer, who were socially housed along with two other rhesus macaque females.

Here is the link to the research.
Basic Math in Monkeys and College Students
plosbiology.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0050328

Here is the link to the post which mentioned the research.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6030321&postcount=99
 
God can do anything He wants, including things that science may deem impossible or “false”. Believing in miracles does not negate science, nor does accepting things can happen beyond the realm of science to explain or validate mean one must abandon their reason.
I was not talking about things outside the competence of science to evaluate, such as miracles, which science cannot evaluate because they only happen once, if at all. I am talking about assertions science can evaluate, such as " all humans are descended from one man and one woman.’ And even if that turns out to be true, it would not validate the rest of the Eden story.
 
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