Science & Religion

[You]

So you’re saying that the story of Noah was just a written story with characters and all just to explain that all parts of the earth were once covered with water at one time or another and by telling this story the Bible proves it had knowledge which man didn’t have until 3000 years later so it must be a divine knowledge?

That is one possibility. Noah may also have been a real character, and his particular flood may also have been real but local and used to portray the history of the world these people lived in and were a part of in a way and with language they could understand and remember. For intelligent, sensitive creatures, knowledge of their origins is important, and for ‘a chosen people’ knowledge is, unusually, forthcoming.

 

[Lui]

That is one possibility. Noah may also have been a real character, and his particular flood may also have been real but local and used to portray the history of the world these people lived in and were a part of in a way and with language they could understand and remember. For intelligent, sensitive creatures, knowledge of their origins is important, and for ‘a chosen people’ knowledge is, unusually, forthcoming.

The other possibility is that even 3000 years ago people experienced floods that were dramatic and they fantasized what it would be like if a God was really angry and that he would just flood the whole world(I mean the part of the world they knew existed) that wiped out all life except for few that survived. To explain how the animals and humans survived they came up with a simple story of a guy building a boat and took the animals on board.

Nowadays where people know more about the Universe but haven’t really explored much yet, just like the people in the Middle East 3000 years ago hadn’t explored the Americas yet, they also invent all sorts of stories. They imagine civilizations on various planets and battles between the species of different planets. Instead of etching it in stone(or however the first writings of the Old testament were written), they use 35mm film-material and make a movie out of their fantasy stories which they give names like “Star Wars”.
If we go back even further in time before people had writing, people sat around a fire and acted out the stories of their ancestors and imagined a story of the big spirit of the jungle lion.

 

[buffalo]

Flood stories form around the world:

nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
D = Destruction by Water
. G = (God) Divine Cause
. W = Warning Given
. H = Humans Spared
. A = Animals Spared
. V = Preserved in a Vessel
D . . H A V 01 Australia- Kurnai
D . W H A V 02 Babylon- Berossus’ account
D G W H A V 03 Babylon- Gilgamesh epic
D G W H . V 04 Bolivia- Chiriguano
D . . H A V 05 Borneo- Sea Dayak
D . . H A V 06 Burma- Singpho
D G . H A V 07 Canada- Cree
D G W H A V 08 Canada- Montagnais
D G . H A V 09 China- Lolo
D . W H A V 10 Cuba- original natives
D G W H A V 11 East Africa- Masai
D G W H . V 12 Egypt- Book of the Dead
D G . H . V 13 Fiji- Walavu-levu tradition
D G W H A . 14 French Polynesia- Raiatea
D . . H A V 15 Greece- Lucian’s account
D G . H A V 16 Guyana- Macushi
D G . H . V 17 Iceland- Eddas
D G . H . V 18 India- Andaman Islands
D . W H A V 19 India- Bhil
D G W H . V 20 India-Kamar
D . W H A . 21 Iran- Zend-Avesta
D G . H . V 22 Italy- Ovid’s poetry
D G . H . V 23 Malay Peninsula- Jekun
D . W H . V 24 Mexico- Codex Chimalpopoca
D . W H A V 25 Mexico- Huichol
D G . H . V 26 New Zealand- Maori
D . W H A . 27 Peru- Indians of Huarochiri
D . W H . V 28 X . Russia- Vogul
D . W H A V 29 U.S.A. (Alaska)- Kolusches
D G . H A V 30 U.S.A. (Alaska)- Tlingit
D . W H A V 31 U.S.A. (Arizona)- Papago
D G . H A V 32 U.S.A. (Hawaii)- legend of Nu-u
D . . H A V 33 Vanualu- Melanesians
D . . H A V 34 Vietnam- Bahnar
D . . H A V 35 Wales- Dwyfan/Dwyfan legend
35 18 17 35 24 32 Total Occurrences out of 35

 

[You]

The other possibility is that even 3000 years ago people experienced floods that were dramatic and they fantasized what it would be like if a God was really angry and that he would just flood the whole world(I mean the part of the world they knew existed) that wiped out all life except for few that survived. To explain how the animals and humans survived they came up with a simple story of a guy building a boat and took the animals on board.

Nowadays where people know more about the Universe but haven’t really explored much yet, just like the people in the Middle East 3000 years ago hadn’t explored the Americas yet, they also invent all sorts of stories. They imagine civilizations on various planets and battles between the species of different planets. Instead of etching it in stone(or however the first writings of the Old testament were written), they use 35mm film-material and make a movie out of their fantasy stories which they give names like “Star Wars”.
If we go back even further in time before people had writing, people sat around a fire and acted out the stories of their ancestors and imagined a story of the big spirit of the jungle lion.

Then again, we do have the geologic fact that every bit of the earth was in fact under water at some stage.

 

[Lui]

Then again, we do have the geologic fact that every bit of the earth was in fact under water at some stage.

I’m sure that Mt. Everest was never under water.

Like I said, what does that prove? No one denies that floods exist. Obviously the story of Noah is based on real life situations. There were floods.
The same goes with Jonas living in a big fish. The Bible actually meant a whale but back then they didn’t know whales are mammals so they just called it a fish. It is a fact that whales exist and that men exist. It is a myth though that a man lived in a whale for three days. My point is, just because there were floods and still are, it doesn’t mean that the story of Noah really happened.
Only Bible literalists believe that every little detail of the Bible actually happened anyway.

The story of Noah is basically an antique catastrophe story similar to movies like Earthquake or Volcano

 

[StAnastasia]

Then again, we do have the geologic fact that every bit of the earth was in fact under water at some stage.

False.

 

[StAnastasia]

And yet all of the earth was covered in water, fact.

False - it was not.

 

[StAnastasia]

The inadequacy of the "new evolutionary synthesis" rejected by many biologists is a sufficient reason for scepticism in addition to the fact that it is both philosophically and theologically incoherent. The absurdity of materialism was evident long before the demise of logical positivism.

But it has not been rejected by biologists.

Then please explain precisely how rational, purposeful, autonomous beings have been produced by non-rational, purposeless particles.

That’s a tough question, being worked on by many people.

“No theory of consciousness is likely to account for all of its varied senses, but at least in terms of consciousness-as-operation-of-the-plan-executing-mechanism, due to some very simple “facts of light,” dwelling on land may have been a necessary condition for giving us the ability to survey the contents of our mind. “Buena vista consciousness,” for lack of a better term, might have been the first kind of consciousness that selection pressures could have brought about.”

blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2011/03/14/why-did-consciousness-evolve-and-how-can-we-modify-it/

 

[StAnastasia]

Is biology the sole explanation of the human species?

By no means. Physics and chemistry are necessary for explaining cosmic evolution from the Big Bang to the gravitational formation of stars and planets, and for explaining the nucleosynthesis – in the core of stars and in supernovae – of the heavy elements essential to the formation of life. Genetics and biology are necessary for explaining evolution, and psychology for the development of human language, society, and religious ideas. I would argue that theology is also necessary, but this stand outside the purview of science.

 

[Lui]

Then again, we do have the geologic fact that every bit of the earth was in fact under water at some stage.

False.

I think it is false too. I think the earth was covered by much more water in the early history of the earth but there was always some parts that were never under water. @ YOU, I think you should provide some evidence instead of repeating it like a broken record. I’m neither a scientist nor a geologist but the information I searched on the internet didn’t support your claim.

 

[StAnastasia]

I think it is false too. I think the earth was covered by much more water in the early history of the earth but there was always some parts that were never under water. @ YOU, I think you should provide some evidence instead of repeating it like a broken record. I’m neither a scientist nor a geologist but the information I searched on the internet didn’t support your claim.

Lui. I won’t go to the mat with you on historical hydology, but it is my understanding that the initially molten earth naturally had no water. As the earth cooled, water vapor came to the surface through volcanism, and condensed to form shallow seas. This water was augmented over billions of years by the accretion of water vapor from cometary impacts, and by further steam emissions from volcanoes. The land would gradually have been overspread by water, but never totally.

StAnastasia

 

[Lui]

Lui. I won’t go to the mat with you on historical hydology, but it is my understanding that the initially molten earth naturally had no water. As the earth cooled, water vapor came to the surface through volcanism, and condensed to form shallow seas. This water was augmented over billions of years by the accretion of water vapor from cometary impacts, and by further steam emissions from volcanoes. The land would gradually have been overspread by water, but never totally.

StAnastasia

Thanks for your answer . I think the member YOU didn’t say that the earth was ever completely covered by water at once but rather that all parts of the earth were covered by water at some point in history which I doubt though.

Btw, I hope you realized in my previous post that I referred to the member called YOU when I said " I think you should provide some evidence instead of repeating it like a broken record." and didn’t think I meant you It’s confusing when someone’s Username is YOU.

 

[grannymh]

By no means. Physics and chemistry are necessary for explaining cosmic evolution from the Big Bang to the gravitational formation of stars and planets, and for explaining the nucleosynthesis – in the core of stars and in supernovae – of the heavy elements essential to the formation of life.** Genetics and biology are necessary for explaining evolution**, and psychology for the development of human language, society, and religious ideas. I would argue that theology is also necessary, but this stand outside the purview of science.

Gentle Readers,

Today is Sunday.

Whoever you are and wherever you are, please take a few minutes to think about God Who has a personal love relationship with you. Naturally, genetics and biology are necessary for explaining evolution. Obviously, knowledge of genetics and biology have produced many benefits in the medical field. Definitely, we need to be thankful to God for giving humans the rational tools or abilities to learn about our anatomy.

Pause for a few minutes. The same mental tools of reason help us to go beyond decomposing anatomies in order to love God. Our ears may hear the words of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man; but it is our intellective spiritual soul which turns hearing into understanding. Ah, one says. Is there something more to understand when evolution theories can account for everything in our material world?

For the individual person, there is something more to understand about human life and where it leads to. God calls each person to share eternally in His life through knowledge and love. Jesus Christ, the ultimate gift of love, teaches us how to live in God’s love by loving others. Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church with His own, continual, loving presence in the Eucharist.

Genetics and biology can tell us a lot about the diversity of creatures; however, the ultimate authority for knowledge about our life and death and life after death belongs to our Creator God. That should make sense because the human person unites both the material and spiritual worlds in one single nature.

Ah, one says. How do we know for sure that we are the marvelous creature that God says we are when genetics and biology demonstrate how anatomies diverged from the same common ancestors which produced fish and so on? How do we know that the some of the children or grandchildren of evolution’s 10,000 breeding pairs didn’t split again into different species with the same anatomies? 10,000 breeding pairs gives lots of wiggle room for gaps or different mutations. Are all of us really human, rational and corporeal, spirit and matter, soul and body? Are all of us saved by the single salvific act of Jesus Christ? If we are, then we had to come from a carefully defined source and not some general population figure.

When one considers that God’s power to create did not end when the first cells multiplied and diverged, one can reasonably understand the necessity of humans descending from one couple. In this manner, the unity of humanity as one single species is assured.

 

[rossum]

Then again, we do have the geologic fact that every bit of the earth was in fact under water at some stage.

False. Parts of Hawaii have never been covered with water since they were erupted. Similarly for parts near the top of most active volcanoes.

While most of the Earth has been underwater at some time. At no time since the origin of man has all the Earth been underwater at the same time. Hence the story, as written: a universal flood during the life of some human beings, is not correct.

rossum

 

[StAnastasia]

False. Parts of Hawaii have never been covered with water since they were erupted. Similarly for parts near the top of most active volcanoes. While most of the Earth has been underwater at some time. At no time since the origin of man has all the Earth been underwater at the same time. Hence the story, as written: a universal flood during the life of some human beings, is not correct.

rossum

There is no evidence that any of the eighteen Cascade Volcanoes have ever been under water. And the Himalaya have not been under water for for at least five million years before “Noah” lived

 

[StAnastasia]

Are all of us saved by the single salvific act of Jesus Christ? If we are, then we had to come from a carefully defined source and not some general population figure.

Of course we came from a carefully defined source - our ancestors. No one descends from a “general population figure,” if that term has any meaning.

 

[You]

I’m sure that Mt. Everest was never under water.

…

Yes it was. Mt. Everest was once spread out nice and flat under an ocean called Tethys. Mt.Everest is the deep marine shale and slate of the Tethys ocean bed and some metamorphic rock, gneiss.

 

[You]

False.

True.

 

[You]

False - it was not.

True - it was so.

 

[You]

I think it is false too. I think the earth was covered by much more water in the early history of the earth but there was always some parts that were never under water. @ YOU, I think you should provide some evidence instead of repeating it like a broken record. I’m neither a scientist nor a geologist but the information I searched on the internet didn’t support your claim.

What is my claim? This.

You:

Then again, we do have the geologic fact that every bit of the earth was in fact under water at some stage.

From my very first post I have said every bit of the earth was under water at some stage or another.
During Noahs Flood not all the earth was under water right away in the twinkling of an eye. In fact, Noahs Flood took 40 days to reach and cover every bit of the earth with water. 40 days is a number used throughout Sacred Scriptures; from Moses wandering 40 years in the desert to Jesus 40 days in the wilderness fasting and being tempted and 40 days spent with the Apostles after His resurrection. Do you imagine Noah’s rain stopped exactly on the fortieth day? No. 40 was a symbolic number. It is associated with sometimes dramatic and difficult events over a period of time, a time of testing and change and presaging a new beginning in some way.
Everyone here wants to argue against what I am not saying, thats for their own reasons. I am just pointing out the fact to them that yes, indeed, every part and bit of this planet earth was indeed at some stage or another under water.

If you would like, and I would like it, we could go from region to region in a geological tour of the formation of the lands we visit. Lets start with England; England was 6 or 7 times under the sea at different times and places. In the Paleozoic (542–251 Ma), In the Devonian period, around 360 million years ago during the Carboniferous period, after the Permian period, the Jurassic period, and the Cretaceous period.