Science & Religion

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There’s a ban on discussing evolution in this forum and we shouldn’t test the moderator’s patience, so for more start a thread in the Back Fence forum.
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Unreasonable approach that reflects poorly on the community but nonetheless I will respect it. I have many more questions about the subject as I believe it is one of God’s most ingenius tools that we have come to realize. I also believe we may not truly understand it and how it works. Only through curiosity will we understand. I don’t believe any of the earlier explorers/discoverers such as Linnaeus, Galileo, Plato, and Magellan arrived at their foundings without questioning.
 
tonyrey said:
I’ve just recalled that you put genetics and biology before psychology chronologically. This implies that genetics and biology are not associated with physical events. :confused:
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Not true at all – genetics and biology are very much associated with physical events.
 
Lui said:
Well, the story of Noah says all life that didn’t survive on the boat died out at once and Bible Literalists believe this is what happened. If you just want to consider the story of Noah as a story that symbolically describes what happened and that flood is symbolism for all sorts of reasons that led to species dying out and that the boat is symbolism for all sorts of reasons what led to other species surviving, then ok.

I doubt though that the story was written in this manner but that’s a matter of belief.
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I think that the story of Noah just describes what happened to Noah and the people --and the animals–of his region.
 
The bad thing about “Science & Religion”

is that some, not all, Catholics have lost faith in the power of God.
By advocating 10,000 breeding pairs as the source of the human person, some, not all, Catholics promote the idea that God is powerless.
 
epiphany08 said:
Unreasonable approach that reflects poorly on the community but nonetheless I will respect it. I have many more questions about the subject as I believe it is one of God’s most ingenius tools that we have come to realize. I also believe we may not truly understand it and how it works. Only through curiosity will we understand. I don’t believe any of the earlier explorers/discoverers such as Linnaeus, Galileo, Plato, and Magellan arrived at their foundings without questioning.
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Questions have always been encouraged. The difficulty is that there are people who cannot accept the answers of Divine Revelation.
 
RobbyS said:
I think that the story of Noah just describes what happened to Noah and the people --and the animals–of his region.
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A nice thing about the story of Noah is that it has happened. Almost everyone rejects the idea that the entire globe, every bit of it, could have been under water and that every living creature with breath in their nostrils perished - and a few were saved and repopulated the earth.
But this fairy-story is not told in the Bible it is told by Geologists and Paleontologists. This is actually the history of this planet. Every bit of it was submerged at some stage or another and many animals died in this flood and became extinct leaving the door open for colonization by new animals.
So next time you hear someone mention the Noah flood you will be able to say to them that you know it happened before and how it happened.🙂
 
Science in itself is good. Religion in itself is good.

The bad thing
about Science & Religion is that some, not all, Catholics have lost faith in the power of God by substituting 10,000 breeding pairs as the origin of humanity. Caught up in the wonders of the created world, they avoid the difficult doctrine of monogenism as if God is powerless.
 
tonyrey said:
Not true at all – genetics and biology are very much associated with physical events.
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Do you believe **all **events are - or are produced by - physical events or produced by physical events? Apart from the Creation of the universe by God, of course. 🙂 I am thinking particularly of acts of free will.
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You said:
A nice thing about the story of Noah is that it has happened.
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Not as told, it didn’t.
  • A human - false.
  • built a boat - false.
  • it rained - true but irrelevant.
  • the entire globe was simultaneously underwater - false.
  • for one year - false.
  • some animals died - true.
  • some animals survived - true.
  • the survivors were on the boat - false.
  • God promised not to do it again - false.
Not much of the story actually survives.

rossum
 
grannymh said:
Science in itself is good. Religion in itself is good.

The bad thing
about Science & Religion is that some, not all, Catholics have lost faith in the power of God by substituting 10,000 breeding pairs as the origin of humanity. Caught up in the wonders of the created world, they avoid the difficult doctrine of monogenism as if God is powerless.
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Granny, you know those 10,000 individuals were not the first humans, right? Humans have been around for 200,000 years but the population wasn’t reduced to 10,000 until ~50,00-100,000 years ago.
 
You said:
A nice thing about the story of Noah is that it has happened. Almost everyone rejects the idea that the entire globe, every bit of it, could have been under water and that every living creature with breath in their nostrils perished - and a few were saved and repopulated the earth. But this fairy-story is not told in the Bible it is told by Geologists and Paleontologists. This is actually the history of this planet. Every bit of it was submerged at some stage or another and many animals died in this flood and became extinct leaving the door open for colonization by new animals. So next time you hear someone mention the Noah flood you will be able to say to them that you know it happened before and how it happened.🙂
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The Noah myth has been discussed over and over on CAF. To repcapitulate some of the chief difficulties:
  1. There is not enough water on earth to submerge it to a depth of 29,053 feet. Magic needed here.
  2. The water would not have been able to drain anywhere to reveal dry land. More magic needed here.
  3. Noah had no animal collection system to capture animals from all over the globe. Magical flying transport carpets might have helped.
  4. Noah would have needed aquaria with lighting and heating systems to preserve all the fish species that could not survive in brackish water. Either magic, or solar-powered lighting and filtering systems.
  5. The elephants alone produced 5,600 pounds of manure per day over the duration of the flood. Noah would have done little else besides shovel elephant manure.(That doesn’t count the other 8.7 million species.)
  6. Noah would have to have traveled to Australia to drop off the marsupials before heading to Ararat. But since Ararat is higher than any point in Australia, how did the ark come to rest on that mountain? How, you ask? Easy – magic!
  7. Noah would have to have carried seeds of all the plants, which would not have survived 150 days of submersion in salt water. After the flood, there was no living vegetation. How did the plant eating animals survive, you ask? Easy – magic!
I could go on, but I’ll give You time to solve these problems first. Then I’ll give You another problem set for tomorrow.

StAnastasia
 
StAnastasia said:
The Noah myth has been discussed over and over on CAF. To repcapitulate some of the chief difficulties:
  1. There is not enough water on earth to submerge it to a depth of 29,053 feet. Magic needed here. Level out the earth and it will be under 9000 feet of water. There is much water in rocks and a huge ocean under China.
  2. The water would not have been able to drain anywhere to reveal dry land. More magic needed here. Nope - water drained into underground basins
  3. Noah had no animal collection system to capture animals from all over the globe. Magical flying transport carpets might have helped. Miracle
  4. Noah would have needed aquaria with lighting and heating systems to preserve all the fish species that could not survive in brackish water. Either magic, or solar-powered lighting and filtering systems. Nope - Even fresh water fish’s salt content is very near that of ocean. Both can survive in a balance tank.
  5. The elephants alone produced 5,600 pounds of manure per day over the duration of the flood. Noah would have done little else besides shovel elephant manure.(That doesn’t count the other 8.7 million species.) Nope - some think that there was a sluice of some sort that help clean it. In addition proponents believe the animals to be in a stasis of sorts.
  6. Noah would have to have traveled to Australia to drop off the marsupials before heading to Ararat. But since Ararat is higher than any point in Australia, how did the ark come to rest on that mountain? How, you ask? Easy – magic! How far away was Australia at the time of the flood. You do know that many did cross water over and over again?
  7. Noah would have to have carried seeds of all the plants, which would not have survived 150 days of submersion in salt water. After the flood, there was no living vegetation. How did the plant eating animals survive, you ask? Easy – magic! Really now - seeds? Seeds are promulgated many ways.
I could go on, but I’ll give You time to solve these problems first. Then I’ll give You another problem set for tomorrow. Looking forward to it.

StAnastasia
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grannymh said:
The Catholic Church is different from the 25,000-30,000 other Christian faiths.
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Forgive me, but with the profound differences expressed by Catholics on CAF over what they themselves say are fundamentals, I don’t think it’s all that different. Which is good - messy is good, that’s how we know something is alive and not dead.
While the fallout of the “Adam is nonsense” approach to Divine Revelation
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I’d put it a little differently - the fallout is due to those who give science so much power that for them Genesis is worthless as poetry and allegory, and the cost of them trying to defend it as a science book, a battle always lost, will be to empty the churches.
grannymh said:
May I gently suggest that you use the* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*. 👍
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Not unless you can first give a cast-iron assurance it has something to say about Jesus, aka Christ, aka God, and doesn’t drone on and on about the old-time comedy dance act Eve, Adam and Noah. And by the way, if it doesn’t, and the Pope doesn’t, and the Bible doesn’t, and if doing it pushes teenagers out of church (post #1834), tell me why others do? Tell me why … :dancing: … all together now Eh Dumata Dumata Dumat, Duh Duh, Ooowah Ooowah, Ooowah Ooowah, Ooowah Ooowah, Why Do Fools Fall In Love - Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers - youtube.com/watch?v=2sAHiR0rkJg
 
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buffalo:
Buffalo, you haven’t solved any of the problems I posed. Are you a secret member of Answers in Genesis or the Institute for Creation Research? Your defense of the flood myth echoes theirs.

But here’s another problem: with a global population in 4500 BCE of approximately seven billion Homo sapiens, and an average pregnancy rate of 3.13% of the female population, 219,100 women were pregnant at the time of the flood. A literal interpretation of the flood as an event caused by God makes God one of the world’s most prolific abortionists.

It is my refusal to blaspheme a loving creator as cause of all these flood-associated abortions that leads me to deny a literal interpretation of the flood myth.

StAnastasia
 
rossum said:
Not as told, it didn’t.
  • A human - false.
  • built a boat - false.
  • it rained - true but irrelevant.
  • the entire globe was simultaneously underwater - false.
  • for one year - false.
  • some animals died - true.
  • some animals survived - true.
  • the survivors were on the boat - false.
  • God promised not to do it again - false.
Not much of the story actually survives.

rossum
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What are the salient points, you ask?
  • The earth was flooded, every bit under water - true.
  • The animals on those flooded lands died - true.
  • Some animals survived to repopulate - true.
  • The water receded - true.
 
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