R
Reuben_J
Guest
freedomm said:
Brother freedomm, I don’t see anything that says they were kept in the garden for a “trial” in the verse above. Can you clarify why do you say for a trial?
Thanks.
- Status
Brother freedomm, I don’t see anything that says they were kept in the garden for a “trial” in the verse above. Can you clarify why do you say for a trial?
Thanks.
H
HulkHoganFan
Guest
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freedomm
Guest
Reuben J:
It was a trial in a sense that when Adam and Eve (PBUT) were asked to dwell in the Garden, Allah asked them to “eat to your hearts’ content where from you will, but do not go near this tree; otherwise you shall become transgressors”.
So the choice and caution was indeed a trial to examine/test them because Allah gave them free choice also. They were not like angles nor babies. But when He created them, obviously they were sinless because they were the first ones thus they were not born with the so-called “original sin”. When they made a mistake out of the free choice they had, was not of something unpardonable. They were merely tempted by Satan just like how Jesus is reported to have tempted by the Devil/Satan despite being full of the Holy Ghost:
So:
Luke 4:1-2
Dear Reuben J:
It was a trial in a sense that when Adam and Eve (PBUT) were asked to dwell in the Garden, Allah asked them to “eat to your hearts’ content where from you will, but do not go near this tree; otherwise you shall become transgressors”.
So the choice and caution was indeed a trial to examine/test them because Allah gave them free choice also. They were not like angles nor babies. But when He created them, obviously they were sinless because they were the first ones thus they were not born with the so-called “original sin”. When they made a mistake out of the free choice they had, was not of something unpardonable. They were merely tempted by Satan just like how Jesus is reported to have tempted by the Devil/Satan despite being full of the Holy Ghost:
So:Luke 4:1-2
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the desert, 2 For the space of forty days; and was tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was hungry.
Now, from your logic/reasoning/view, if Jesus despite being full of the Holy Ghost, can be tempted by the Devil and yet remained sinless and a 100% man at the same time, then why cannot Prophet Adam (PBUH) who was born without father and without mother and had the honor to be the first man created not on this earth, remain sinless after repenting for his first mistake ever commited by him when he was placed in the Garden for the first time? Did you realise the implications and baselessness of your false premise (of “original sin”)? ]
So the final goal of Adam and Eve (PBUT)'s creation was to appoint/send them to the Earth and this could have happened one way or the other, even if they had not eaten the forbidden tree by utilizing their free choice given by Allah.
It is to be noted that there is a difference between man’s freedom and God’s Free Will. It is ONLY GOD who has Absolute Free Will, but we are given something called Free choice (a limited freedom). We as His cratures do not know and will never be able to know God’s Whole Wisdom. When He Wills anything it always happens but when man wills, it may or may not happen as he expected.
Having said this, if you read the verses prior to the verses I qouted, there incidentally, the Holy Qur’an throws light on the truth about man and his correct position in the Universe:
2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth."
So the final goal was to appoint man as his vicegerent on earth.
And the rationale of that initial trial still continues and must continue up unitl last man on this earth to the last Day of this earth, thus in Assyid Mawdoodi’s words, the continued trial is:
Does he (man) or does he not obey his Lord in spite of having the power to obey or not to obey? And if he forgets or is seduced by greed, does he or does he not repent through warning and admonition, when he realizes his error? At the same time, God has warned him that a full and perfect record of all his deeds and misdeeds is being kept, and that he shall be judged on the Day of Reckoning in accordance with it.
Without this trial, the purpose of our (man’s) creation appears meaningless.
So the trial must begin the moment the first man was created although man of every epoch/period may not necessarily have same type of trial(s) but based on his/her capacity because:
Surah 2:286
On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns.
(Pray) “Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith.”
Now, from your logic/reasoning/view, if Jesus despite being full of the Holy Ghost, can be tempted by the Devil and yet remained sinless and a 100% man at the same time, then why cannot Prophet Adam (PBUH) who was born without father and without mother and had the honor to be the first man created not on this earth, remain sinless after repenting for his first mistake ever commited by him when he was placed in the Garden for the first time? Did you realise the implications and baselessness of your false premise (of “original sin”)? ]
So the final goal of Adam and Eve (PBUT)'s creation was to appoint/send them to the Earth and this could have happened one way or the other, even if they had not eaten the forbidden tree by utilizing their free choice given by Allah.
It is to be noted that there is a difference between man’s freedom and God’s Free Will. It is ONLY GOD who has Absolute Free Will, but we are given something called Free choice (a limited freedom). We as His cratures do not know and will never be able to know God’s Whole Wisdom. When He Wills anything it always happens but when man wills, it may or may not happen as he expected.
Having said this, if you read the verses prior to the verses I qouted, there incidentally, the Holy Qur’an throws light on the truth about man and his correct position in the Universe:
2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth."
So the final goal was to appoint man as his vicegerent on earth.
And the rationale of that initial trial still continues and must continue up unitl last man on this earth to the last Day of this earth, thus in Assyid Mawdoodi’s words, the continued trial is:
Does he (man) or does he not obey his Lord in spite of having the power to obey or not to obey? And if he forgets or is seduced by greed, does he or does he not repent through warning and admonition, when he realizes his error? At the same time, God has warned him that a full and perfect record of all his deeds and misdeeds is being kept, and that he shall be judged on the Day of Reckoning in accordance with it.
Without this trial, the purpose of our (man’s) creation appears meaningless.
So the trial must begin the moment the first man was created although man of every epoch/period may not necessarily have same type of trial(s) but based on his/her capacity because:
Surah 2:286
On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns.
(Pray) “Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith.”
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
Give it up freedomm. Take your jihad somewhere else. You’re not convincing anyone (no wonder so many of your brethren had to resort to the scimitar). In the words of Galileo, the Bible "is intended to teach us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go."
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
HulkHoganFan said:
Oh, c’mon. You don’t need to be linking to James White’s site!
I
inJESUS
Guest
I
inJESUS
Guest
I
inJESUS
Guest
To Freedom, you said:
if what Adam did was completely forgiven as if nothing happened, why is Adam (humanity) on earth and not in their suitable place?
you said :
so you said :
And basically you are saying that allah put sinless people in a sinful earth and will judge them still?
And, as a final note, if all humans are born without sin, then why did the quran talk about the immaculate conception of Jesus? why was Jesus the only human being on earth born in this way according to you?
i ask: yes Allah forgave Adam, but why didn’t he keep Adam in paradise ? can we say that humanity’s “suitable place” is paradise, but because Adam sinned, he was cast down with all humanity to earth?
if what Adam did was completely forgiven as if nothing happened, why is Adam (humanity) on earth and not in their suitable place?
you said :
why then are we on earth and not in our suitable place?
so you said :
but the previous aya said:
so Adam was deprived from his “felicity” because of “Satan”…it was not a trial, it was the “felicity” that God intended to humankind and not earth which is far from being a “felicity” place .So allah intended the not “felicity” earth as our place and not the paradise which is a felicity place?
And basically you are saying that allah put sinless people in a sinful earth and will judge them still?
And, as a final note, if all humans are born without sin, then why did the quran talk about the immaculate conception of Jesus? why was Jesus the only human being on earth born in this way according to you?
I
inJESUS
Guest
sorry couldnt edit my post so here it is :
Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: “Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves**. On earth ** will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time.”
As we see, Allah is making a comparison here between GARDEN THE STATE OF FELICITY and EARTH which means that for some reason, allah cast us down from the felicity place to earth. To say that God did not intend felicity paradise to us, then why did he create Adam in a felicity place and later cast him down to a not very happy earth? from felicity to earth= punishment…
Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: “Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves**. On earth ** will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time.”
As we see, Allah is making a comparison here between GARDEN THE STATE OF FELICITY and EARTH which means that for some reason, allah cast us down from the felicity place to earth. To say that God did not intend felicity paradise to us, then why did he create Adam in a felicity place and later cast him down to a not very happy earth? from felicity to earth= punishment…
F
freedomm
Guest
Dear inJESUS:
No.
I already explained in detail earlier that the purpose of man’s creation was to appoint him/send him to the Earth. So, before creating man, Allah said to His Angels:
وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً قَالُواْ أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاء وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: “I will create a vicegerent on earth.” They said: “Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?” He said: “I know what ye know not.”
Thus, before man’s creation for the first time, the Earth was already created with all of it’s resources and things that are meant to be utilized and given in control of man. Otherwise creation of Earth makes no sense. But remember:
وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاء وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
21:16 And [know that] We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in mere idle play.
And:
مَا خَلَقْنَاهُمَا إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
44:39 none of this have We created without [an inner] truth: but most of them under*stand it not.
Keeping Adam in the Garden does not necessarily mean to keep him forever because there is a difference between Adam (man) and Angels. Man is superior to all creatures in this whole Universe. Man is Ashraful-Makhlooqaat. Man is the central figure thus he is called by Allah as Khalifah.
Khalifah: one who exercises the delegated powers on behalf of another as his vicegerent. Khalifah thus is not the master, but deputy of the Master; his powers are not his own but delegated to him by the real Master. He has, therefore. no right to have his own [absolute] will but he is there to fulfil the will of the delegating Authority [by utilizing the free choice given to him by his Creator]. It would be dishonesty and treason, if he assumed sovereign powers, or used them according to his own whim, or if he acknowledged another as his sovereign and submitted to his will. ----Assyid Mawdoodi ]
So man is superior as opposed to …
2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: “I will create a vicegerent on earth.” They said: “Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?” He said: “I know what ye know not.”
Thus, before man’s creation for the first time, the Earth was already created with all of it’s resources and things that are meant to be utilized and given in control of man. Otherwise creation of Earth makes no sense. But remember:
وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاء وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
21:16 And [know that] We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in mere idle play.
And:
مَا خَلَقْنَاهُمَا إِلَّا بِالْحَقِّ وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
44:39 none of this have We created without [an inner] truth: but most of them under*stand it not.
Keeping Adam in the Garden does not necessarily mean to keep him forever because there is a difference between Adam (man) and Angels. Man is superior to all creatures in this whole Universe. Man is Ashraful-Makhlooqaat. Man is the central figure thus he is called by Allah as Khalifah.
Khalifah: one who exercises the delegated powers on behalf of another as his vicegerent. Khalifah thus is not the master, but deputy of the Master; his powers are not his own but delegated to him by the real Master. He has, therefore. no right to have his own [absolute] will but he is there to fulfil the will of the delegating Authority [by utilizing the free choice given to him by his Creator]. It would be dishonesty and treason, if he assumed sovereign powers, or used them according to his own whim, or if he acknowledged another as his sovereign and submitted to his will. ----Assyid Mawdoodi ]
So man is superior as opposed to …
cont…
F
freedomm
Guest
Dear inJESUS:
So man is superior as opposed to all creatures [known and unkown to man], in the sense that despite he has the ability to pick right or wrong based on choice given by Allah, he can reject wrong and adopt right/good for his Creator’s sake, whereas all other creatures are totally MUSLIMS in the task given to them because they have no choice but to be on the course (taqdeer) set by Allah. Even the Sun is MUSLIM:
أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَسْجُدُ لَهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَن فِي الْأَرْضِ وَالشَّمْسُ وَالْقَمَرُ وَالنُّجُومُ وَالْجِبَالُ وَالشَّجَرُ وَالدَّوَابُّ وَكَثِيرٌ مِّنَ النَّاسِ وَكَثِيرٌ حَقَّ عَلَيْهِ الْعَذَابُ وَمَن يُهِنِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِن مُّكْرِمٍ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاء
22:18 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the earth bows down before Allah? and so do the sun, and the moon and the stars, and the trees and the beasts and a large number of the people and even a large number of those who have deserved the torment. And the one whom Allah degrades and disgraces has none to make him worthy of honour; Allah does whatever He wills.
وَلِلّهِ يَسْجُدُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ طَوْعًا وَكَرْهًا وَظِلالُهُم بِالْغُدُوِّ وَالآصَالِ
13:15 For it is Allah alone before Whom everything in the heavens and the earth bows down willingly or un-willingly, and the shadows of all things bow down before Him in the morning and the evening.
“… everything in the heavens and the earth bows down before Allah” in the same sense that every creation of His has to obey and submit to His Physical Law in every detail. The only difference between the submission of a Believer and an unbeliever is that the former submits to it with a willing heart while the latter is forced to do so against his will, for it is absolutely beyond his power to oppose it. ----Assyid Mawdoodi ]
Thus there is no such thing as “original sin”. What Prophet Adam (PBUH) did, was forgiven by Allah at the same time when he asked for forgiveness and since Allah is Most Mercifull too, if someone repents from the depth of his heart (by tawbatanNasooh - تَوْبَةً نَّصُوحً ) , thus it makes no sense that what Prophet Adam (PBUH) did must inherit all of his progeny.
And not to mention the formation of Earth with all it’s resources meant for man, before creation of man.
22:18 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the earth bows down before Allah? and so do the sun, and the moon and the stars, and the trees and the beasts and a large number of the people and even a large number of those who have deserved the torment. And the one whom Allah degrades and disgraces has none to make him worthy of honour; Allah does whatever He wills.
وَلِلّهِ يَسْجُدُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ طَوْعًا وَكَرْهًا وَظِلالُهُم بِالْغُدُوِّ وَالآصَالِ
13:15 For it is Allah alone before Whom everything in the heavens and the earth bows down willingly or un-willingly, and the shadows of all things bow down before Him in the morning and the evening.
“… everything in the heavens and the earth bows down before Allah” in the same sense that every creation of His has to obey and submit to His Physical Law in every detail. The only difference between the submission of a Believer and an unbeliever is that the former submits to it with a willing heart while the latter is forced to do so against his will, for it is absolutely beyond his power to oppose it. ----Assyid Mawdoodi ]
Thus there is no such thing as “original sin”. What Prophet Adam (PBUH) did, was forgiven by Allah at the same time when he asked for forgiveness and since Allah is Most Mercifull too, if someone repents from the depth of his heart (by tawbatanNasooh - تَوْبَةً نَّصُوحً ) , thus it makes no sense that what Prophet Adam (PBUH) did must inherit all of his progeny.
And not to mention the formation of Earth with all it’s resources meant for man, before creation of man.
F
freedomm
Guest
Dear inJESUS:
If man was kept in the Graden from the time he was created, how he would know/realise decisively or roughly what is in fact suitable and what is not, unless he is not sent or shown an unsuitable or opposite of Graden place or somewhere else other than Garden that is less suitable ?
By the way the word Garden is a meaningless word if there is no opposit of it because all created things are created by Allah in pairs, says the Holy Quran:
وَمِن كُلِّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقْنَا زَوْجَيْنِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَذَكَّرُونَ
51:49 And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect.
سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ الْأَزْوَاجَ كُلَّهَا مِمَّا تُنبِتُ الْأَرْضُ وَمِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَمِمَّا لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
36:36 Glory be to Him Who created all the sexual pairs, of that which the earth groweth, and of themselves, and of that which they know not!
And not to mention:
وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاء وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
21:16 And [know that] We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in mere idle play.
51:49 And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect.
سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ الْأَزْوَاجَ كُلَّهَا مِمَّا تُنبِتُ الْأَرْضُ وَمِنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ وَمِمَّا لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
36:36 Glory be to Him Who created all the sexual pairs, of that which the earth groweth, and of themselves, and of that which they know not!
And not to mention:
وَمَا خَلَقْنَا السَّمَاء وَالْأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا لَاعِبِينَ
21:16 And [know that] We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in mere idle play.
B
BryPGuy89
Guest
I don’t know for fact, but I always heard and it is oftenly discussed on several channels, Kistory channel and what not that nails were the common use, many nails found in archealogical finds and stuff. Like I said though, not sure if fact, don’t hold me to it.
F
freedomm
Guest
Dear inJESUS:
No. You are not looking at the whole creation story and it’s rationale from Quranic pointview. You have to discard your Biblical view for a mement when reading/knowing the Islamic view. But unfortunatley you are reading certain verses and forgetting the others.
This Earth is not a totally sinfull place. Man is given free choice to choose right or wrong. By using choice properly man can enjoy a peacefull life even on this Earth. If you are not given a peacefull environment how can you pass the test?
Sin come into existance because of man’s wrong/false choices/decisions. But man by itself is neither satan nor angel. Mischief and tumult is all due to man’s wrong/evil choices.
Surah Ar-Rum [30:41]
ظَهَرَ الْفَسَادُ فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ بِمَا كَسَبَتْ أَيْدِي النَّاسِ لِيُذِيقَهُم بَعْضَ الَّذِي عَمِلُوا لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ
30:41 Mischief has appeared on land and sea because of (the meed) that the hands of men have earned, that ((Allah)) may give them a taste of some of their deeds: in order that they may turn back (from Evil).
But you should not forget this:
Surah Ash-Shams [91:7-10]
وَنَفْسٍ وَمَا سَوَّاهَا
فَأَلْهَمَهَا فُجُورَهَا وَتَقْوَاهَا
قَدْ أَفْلَحَ مَن زَكَّاهَا
وَقَدْ خَابَ مَن دَسَّاهَا
By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
Truly he succeeds that purifies it,
And he fails that corrupts it!
Then, not all people adopt evil ways. But the proper way that brings ultimate peace and tranquilty even on Earth is not man-made law but the Divine Law that was further revealed by Allah from time to time through His choosen Prophets (PBUT). They showed the Right Way to their respective people/nations, in which they were born and raised before their very eyes but they did not force people. Their harsh action was towards those who took the law in their own hand.
So, like for example the Last Prophet (whose Divine Message of God is meant for whole humanity) declare:
Al-Baqara [2:256]
لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىَ لاَ انفِصَامَ لَهَا وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ
2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
This earth is also a trial, infact the real and final trial and continuation and extension of the same one when man was kept in the Garden.
Verse 2:37 says:
At that time Adam learnt appropriate words from his Lord and repented, and his Lord accepted his repentance, for He is very Relenting and very Merciful.
When Adam felt sorry for his guilt and wanted to repent and return to AIIah, he could not find appropriate words for asking Allah’s pardon. Then Allah took pity upon him on account of his grief and helplessness and taught him the appropriate words.
The Arabic word “taubah” (repent) means both “to turn back” and "to turn to". When applied to man, it means that he has turned back from rebellion to submission, and, when it is ascribed to Allah, it means that He has again turned with compassion to the penitent person. —*Assyid Mawdoodi * ]
And verse 20:122 says:
cont…30:41 Mischief has appeared on land and sea because of (the meed) that the hands of men have earned, that ((Allah)) may give them a taste of some of their deeds: in order that they may turn back (from Evil).
But you should not forget this:
Surah Ash-Shams [91:7-10]
وَنَفْسٍ وَمَا سَوَّاهَا
فَأَلْهَمَهَا فُجُورَهَا وَتَقْوَاهَا
قَدْ أَفْلَحَ مَن زَكَّاهَا
وَقَدْ خَابَ مَن دَسَّاهَا
By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
Truly he succeeds that purifies it,
And he fails that corrupts it!
Then, not all people adopt evil ways. But the proper way that brings ultimate peace and tranquilty even on Earth is not man-made law but the Divine Law that was further revealed by Allah from time to time through His choosen Prophets (PBUT). They showed the Right Way to their respective people/nations, in which they were born and raised before their very eyes but they did not force people. Their harsh action was towards those who took the law in their own hand.
So, like for example the Last Prophet (whose Divine Message of God is meant for whole humanity) declare:
Al-Baqara [2:256]
لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىَ لاَ انفِصَامَ لَهَا وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ
2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
This earth is also a trial, infact the real and final trial and continuation and extension of the same one when man was kept in the Garden.
Verse 2:37 says:
At that time Adam learnt appropriate words from his Lord and repented, and his Lord accepted his repentance, for He is very Relenting and very Merciful.
When Adam felt sorry for his guilt and wanted to repent and return to AIIah, he could not find appropriate words for asking Allah’s pardon. Then Allah took pity upon him on account of his grief and helplessness and taught him the appropriate words.
The Arabic word “taubah” (repent) means both “to turn back” and "to turn to". When applied to man, it means that he has turned back from rebellion to submission, and, when it is ascribed to Allah, it means that He has again turned with compassion to the penitent person. —*Assyid Mawdoodi * ]
And verse 20:122 says:
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freedomm
Guest
Dear inJESUS:
And verse 20:122 says:
And verse 20:122 says:
ثُمَّ اجْتَبَاهُ رَبُّهُ فَتَابَ عَلَيْهِ وَهَدَى
20:122 But his Lord chose him (for His Grace): He turned to him, and gave him Guidance.
,
That is, “Allah not only pardoned him but also gave him Guidance and taught him the way to follow it.” ]
“…His Lord chose him” because he did not disobey Him intentionally and did not persist in sin arrogantly. As soon as he realized his error he felt ashamed of it and asked Allah’s pardon: “O our Lord, we have wronged ourselves gravely; if Thou dost not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we shall be totally ruined”.(VII: 23). In contrast to Adam and Eve, Satan was cursed because he not only disobeyed his Lord but also persisted in his sin, and boldly challenged Him that it was He Who was responsible for his disobedience, for He had preferred Adam whom He had created of clay over him whom He had made of fire. —Assyid Mawdoodi ]
قَالَ اهْبِطَا مِنْهَا جَمِيعًا بَعْضُكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ عَدُوٌّ فَإِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُم مِّنِّي هُدًى فَمَنِ اتَّبَعَ هُدَايَ فَلَا يَضِلُّ وَلَا يَشْقَى
20:123 saying: "Down with you all from this [state of innocence, and be henceforth] enemies unto one another! None the less, there shall most certainly come unto you guidance from Me: and he who follows My guidance will not go astray, and neither will he be unhappy.
Now, if this earth was totally sinfull, then Allah would not have sent His sinless people to this Earth. All Prophets of God were sent to guide/teach the humanity how to live a good life in order to have achieve peace on this Earth first and then an Eternal good consequence in the Afterlife.
20:122 But his Lord chose him (for His Grace): He turned to him, and gave him Guidance.
,
That is, “Allah not only pardoned him but also gave him Guidance and taught him the way to follow it.” ]
“…His Lord chose him” because he did not disobey Him intentionally and did not persist in sin arrogantly. As soon as he realized his error he felt ashamed of it and asked Allah’s pardon: “O our Lord, we have wronged ourselves gravely; if Thou dost not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we shall be totally ruined”.(VII: 23). In contrast to Adam and Eve, Satan was cursed because he not only disobeyed his Lord but also persisted in his sin, and boldly challenged Him that it was He Who was responsible for his disobedience, for He had preferred Adam whom He had created of clay over him whom He had made of fire. —Assyid Mawdoodi ]
قَالَ اهْبِطَا مِنْهَا جَمِيعًا بَعْضُكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ عَدُوٌّ فَإِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُم مِّنِّي هُدًى فَمَنِ اتَّبَعَ هُدَايَ فَلَا يَضِلُّ وَلَا يَشْقَى
20:123 saying: "Down with you all from this [state of innocence, and be henceforth] enemies unto one another! None the less, there shall most certainly come unto you guidance from Me: and he who follows My guidance will not go astray, and neither will he be unhappy.
Now, if this earth was totally sinfull, then Allah would not have sent His sinless people to this Earth. All Prophets of God were sent to guide/teach the humanity how to live a good life in order to have achieve peace on this Earth first and then an Eternal good consequence in the Afterlife.
The whole Prophets’ mission, their hardship that they went through by putting their very lives in dangeour to restore/proclaim/teach the Divine Law, and all of their efforts become MEANINGLESS, if your idea of original sin is adopted because it is nonsensical, irrational and filthy.
I
inJESUS
Guest
I
inJESUS
Guest
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freedomm
Guest
Dear inJESUS:
Again you are not reading/considering the whole story from Islamic pointview.
Here are some points for you to ponder:
- All Prophets of God (PBUH) were given some uniqueness to convince those elements of their societies who were more interested in tricks than their Sacred teachings meant to guide humanity.
- No Prophet is superior or lower in Muslims eyes because Holy Quran asks us not to make any distinction between them. The evaluatin of their precise status is upto Allah alone.
- Now if the birth of Jesus without father is unique and causing/allowing you to deduce the ideas of his supposed divinity etc., then the creation/birth of first man–Prophet Adam (PBUH) is the most unique incident in our whole known history of religious scriptures. Because it is Prophet Adam(PBUH)'s birth that provided chance for Saint Mary (PBUHer) to come into being who later gave birth to Prophet Jesus (PBUH).
- Think about the birth of Prophet Jesus (PBUH) without Saint Mary (PBUHer) !
- God created Prophet Adam(PBUH) from absolutely lifeless material of not of this Earth and then ofcourse Allah breathed His spirit into him. So Allah asked His angels:
فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِي فَقَعُواْ لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ
15:29 and when I have formed him fully and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down before him in prostration!
2:30 He said: “I know what ye know not.”
15:29 and when I have formed him fully and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down before him in prostration!
- Thus no breath of Allah, no way Prophet Adam (PBUH) could have turned in to a person with life/soul.
- But before that the very **precise idea of man ** cannot come to the minds of even angels, if Prophet Adam (PBUH) was not created, because it is only Allah who knew what He is going to create from the state of nothing. Thus He said to the angels before creating man for the first time:
2:30 He said: “I know what ye know not.”
- Your belief that Jesus was a or the 100% Man too, is at the mercy of Prophet Adam (PBUH)'s birth/existence.
- In other words: No existence of Prophet Adam (PBUH), no way Jesus Christ can be called or even imagined that he was a man too, let alone 100% man.
- Then, the piousness of Saint Mary (PBUHer) demands that she too must be a 100% woman in all senses as much as Prophet Jesus (PBUH), as such as far as the piousness and sinlessness is concerned Prophet Jesus (PBUH) and his saintlymother are on the same level. Thus the “uniqueness” that you assume about your version of Jesus is merely a conjecture.
- Carrying baby Jesus in her womb for nine months, knowing it is a future ‘man approved of God’, by being belong to the noblest lineage of Prophet Mosa and Prophet Haroon (PBUT) and by being a woman without hasband, and facing the possible humiliating future charges–after Jesus’ birth-- from the evil sections of her society on the one hand and on the other facing the suspecion of other people, … all these are more stronger, bold, brave and courageous than what Prophet Jesus (PBUH)
faced in his age of 30 and 33 (youth). So if uniqueness is to be counted based on crtiteria set by the christians, then Saint Mary (PBUher) is more unique person than her son. - If Jesus’ so-called death was pre-planned and he supposed to die anyhow, then there was no need for his mother to take him to Egypt and save his life from a worthless Herod’s hands (if Gospel accounts are taken into consideration). As such your version of Jesus was so helpless and not mirculous at all when he was a baby and obviously at the mercy of his mother/relatives who took him to Egypt and kept him there for atleast two years of his age.
- If your version of Jesus’s birth was not like any other human being, then why Saint Mary had to go through the same purification meant for any Jewish Sarah or Elizabeth or Tamar, as per your Gospel narration (and funny thing is even Joseph/baby Jesus too went thru purification, when clearly Joseph was not Saint Mary’s husband).
- If miracles are a test to classify/judge anyone’s status,…
cont…
F
freedomm
Guest
Dear inJESUS:
- If miracles are a test to classify/judge anyone’s status, then consider this:
" Prophet Moses (PBUH) miraculously turned his staff into a serpent. Logically speaking, making a wood into a living serpent is greater marvel than the revival of a dead man. Because the difference between a living man and a dead man is not as great as between a piece of wood and a living serpent. Now if Moses (PBUH) did not become God by performing this wonder how could a lesser wonder be an argument for Jesus being God or the Son of God?" ----Imam Razi
4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
3:59 Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, “Be” - and he is.
الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلاَ تَكُن مِّن الْمُمْتَرِينَ
3:60 The Truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.
Surah Al-Ma’idah [5:75]
مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ
5:75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
This verse repudiates very clearly the Christian doctrine of the divinity of Jesus. If one sincerely wishes to know what he really was, one can judge very easily with the help of the signs given herein that he was no more than a man.
The Gospel itself bears witness that he was a human being, and subject to the usual wants and necessities of ordinary persons: he was born of a woman (Mary): he had a genealogical tree like all other human beings: he had a human body which had all the characteristics and limitations of other human bodies: he slept, he ate food and he felt heat and cold: he was even tempted by the devil.
These things clearly show that he could not be God nor could he have been a partner with God in His Godhead.
But it is a strange feat of mental perversion that the Christians insist on ascribing Godhead to Jesus inspite of the fact that their own Gospels depict him purely as a human being. This is a clear proof of the fact that they do not believe in the Gospels but in an imaginary Christ whom they themselves have invented and raised to Godhead.----Assyid Mawdoodi ]
…- The actual miracle of Prophet Jesus (PBUH) is not his birth but the boldness he showed in conveying the Message of Islam (surrendering to the Will of God) and demanding from most rebellious and evil people of his nation (who had a history of killing their own Prophets) to follow the commandments of God already sent before to the previous Prophets of God.
- This mission of Prophet Jesus (PBUH) was not an easy task because calling people to follow the Law means death sentence to their whims, wordly pleasures, evil acts etc. As such these powerfull rebellious tyrants of his own nation–Bani Israel–were a constant threat to his life that they eventually succeeded in convicting him on false charges/accusations but with Allah’s Mercy Allah saved him from accursed death on the corss. Without Allah’s Mercy Prophet Jesus (PBUH) could have ascended to heaven:
4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
- So, when Prophet Jesus (PBUH) was born without father, it was not his personal miracle at all because he did not create himself. It is God Almighty who is the Creator of all of us, made his unusual birth to happen but it was not unique as compare to Prophet Adam (PBUH)'s creation from totally lifeless state of nothing. Thus if you really want to give credit of miracleness, then it is all due to Allah. And Allah is telling us that:
3:59 Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of Jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, “Be” - and he is.
الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلاَ تَكُن مِّن الْمُمْتَرِينَ
3:60 The Truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.
Surah Al-Ma’idah [5:75]
مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ
5:75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
This verse repudiates very clearly the Christian doctrine of the divinity of Jesus. If one sincerely wishes to know what he really was, one can judge very easily with the help of the signs given herein that he was no more than a man.
The Gospel itself bears witness that he was a human being, and subject to the usual wants and necessities of ordinary persons: he was born of a woman (Mary): he had a genealogical tree like all other human beings: he had a human body which had all the characteristics and limitations of other human bodies: he slept, he ate food and he felt heat and cold: he was even tempted by the devil.
These things clearly show that he could not be God nor could he have been a partner with God in His Godhead.
But it is a strange feat of mental perversion that the Christians insist on ascribing Godhead to Jesus inspite of the fact that their own Gospels depict him purely as a human being. This is a clear proof of the fact that they do not believe in the Gospels but in an imaginary Christ whom they themselves have invented and raised to Godhead.----Assyid Mawdoodi ]
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JSmitty2005
Guest
Holy ****, freedumb, you’ve convinced me. I want to become a Muslim now! How do I convert?
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