Scientist passed over for job because of his faith

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If the Catholic Church says something, it’s fine to study them, yes. In the past there have been experiments testing whether prayer improves the health of hospital patients, for example. What a scientist wouldn’t do (unless they are Catholic themselves) is accept a statement of the Catholic Church as automatically true without subjecting it to the scientific method.
Well, the scientific method wasn’t intended to test the metaphysical, therefore it doesn’t usually work all that well. 😉 In order for a test to truly test it has to be appropriate to the subject. God can’t be proven or disproven in a test tube. I would never pray over an experiment, say to determine the weight of an object. It’s the wrong kind of application for what I desire to learn. I would, however, pray over whether or not I should enter religious life, or get married or if I wished to gain some virtue. Applying the proper instrument to the proper object gets one what one wants. I’d never apply a wrench to a violin hoping to get a tune. But I would apply a bow. It’s all depends on what one needs to get out of it/learn from it. 🙂
 
If the Catholic Church says something, it’s fine to study them, yes. In the past there have been experiments testing whether prayer improves the health of hospital patients, for example. What a scientist wouldn’t do (unless they are Catholic themselves) is accept a statement of the Catholic Church as automatically true without subjecting it to the scientific method.
Why would you presume the effects of prayer are limited to the physical realm?
 
Why do you assume that I presume that? As you know, being a scientist, the scientific method applies to the physical realm.
Then why would you use the scientific method as the measure of the efficacy of prayer, or demand that everything the Church professes be subject to the scientific method? :confused:
If the Catholic Church says something, it’s fine to study them, yes. In the past there have been experiments testing whether prayer improves the health of hospital patients, for example. What a scientist wouldn’t do (unless they are Catholic themselves) is accept a statement of the Catholic Church as automatically true without subjecting it to the scientific method.
You don’t seem to possess even a rudimentary understanding of science, philosophy or theology. It’s difficult even responding to your posts because they’re merely apoplectic and aren’t coherent or rational.
 
Then why would you use the scientific method as the measure of the efficacy of prayer, or demand that everything the Church professes be subject to the scientific method? :confused:

You don’t seem to possess even a rudimentary understanding of science, philosophy or theology. It’s difficult even responding to your posts because they’re merely apoplectic and aren’t coherent or rational.
The scientific method has been used to measure the efficacy of prayer, since prayer has been said to have effects in the physical world. Often prayers are said to help people’s health or wellbeing, not just their souls. These have real effects and have been measured. I didn’t demand that everything the Church professes be subject to the scientific method. Della asked me why scientists dismiss everything the Church says and I said they didn’t, they would subject things to the scientific method unless the scientist was Catholic. I may believe different things to you, but that’s no reason to throw around insults. I’ve been responding to your points, but you are being personal. If it’s all the same to you, I’m going to concentrate on responding to the posts of other forum members from now on.
 
If the Catholic Church says something, it’s fine to study them, yes. In the past there have been experiments testing whether prayer improves the health of hospital patients, for example. ** What a scientist wouldn’t do (unless they are Catholic themselves) is accept a statement of the Catholic Church as automatically true without** subjecting it to the scientific method.
:hmmm:
The scientific method has been used to measure the efficacy of prayer, since prayer has been said to have effects in the physical world. Often prayers are said to help people’s health or wellbeing, not just their souls. These have real effects and have been measured.** I didn’t demand** that everything the Church professes be subject to the scientific method. Della asked me why scientists dismiss everything the Church says and I said they didn’t, they would subject things to the scientific method unless the scientist was Catholic. I may believe different things to you, but that’s no reason to throw around insults. I’ve been responding to your points, but you are being personal. If it’s all the same to you, I’m going to concentrate on responding to the posts of other forum members from now on.
You said that scientists will not accept statements of the Catholic Church as automatically true without subjecting them to the scientific method.

You’re right to back paddle. You’ve been caught red handed.
 
Yes, they were clearly thinking about it. I just don’t know, from what I saw in this and a few other articles, is how much that really factored into the final decision. I’ve observed a few academic appointments second-hand, and just like in a private business, there are a lot of intangibles that end up going in to succh decisions. Things like how well will this person work with the group, will he be in line with the direction the department is looking to go, is he easy to get along with, do hos particular strengths round out the deficiencies of the others. I’m sure often the people making the decision don’t know exactly what makes them prefer one candidate over another.

So while a judge might make a decision one way or the other, we really can’t know for sure. The most interesting thing for us is to see how the scientific community seemed to perceive his Christian faith. There are other Christians in science - in physics in particular - so I find myself wondering why it raised flags in particular in this instance? Something about the candidate, or that department? Or is it that the political discussion has become so combative that even the possibility of bad press has become an issue?

Of course they have the right to their opinions - though most “creation science” has no scientific credibility, and that has nothing to do with academic freedom being quashed. The scientists at the Vatican observatory would be just as unlikely to want to hire someone who supports many of the arguments widely circulated under that title. THey would be better off if they simply said that science was unreliable on this subject because the creation was a miracle.

But the real problem IMO is the claim that one cannot be a real Christian and support evolution as a scientific theory. That is the claim of fundamentalists and those who are trying to have teaching evolution banned in schools. Because they hear it so often and so loudly the public and it seems parts of the scientific community have begin to accept that those are in fact the terms of the discourse. I actually spoke to a student in a university, a science student - who was unaware that it was really possible for a Christian to be anything other than a YEC supporter. THis young man was a Christian, so one would think he has been at least exposed to other views. 🤷

When people are under that impression, it is not surprising they would be suspicious of a scientist who was a Christian.
Why should anyone care if a scientist doesnt believe in a theory that has obvious holes throughout ? The focus of most educational institutions today is on establishing their faith… and how will that faith affect anything related to reality… other than being accepted into the club. It is all opinion anyway.
Any educated person can expound on any theory without having the slightest belief in it. If belief in what they are expounding is a criteria… There are a lot of lawyers that should be out of a job.
 
He says he is not a creationist, so the people who do believe in young earth creationism are not relevant to this topic.

Unfortunately, this sort of thing has been happening a lot. People often don’t get jobs or are turned down from Master’s or Ph.D programs unless they are openly atheists. If they are Christians then forget it. It’s bullying and we’ve been down this road for so long it’s going to be very difficult to undo this anti-religious bigotry that is so prevalent in universities today. There is no religious freedom in universities today.
Universities are religious institutions. They just cant call it that.
 
Really? All of them? Even those that used to be polytechnics?
Typical lib response. You know what I meant. If you didnt … conversation will probably end quickly.
Doesnt matter what they used to be called. Atheism is faith based… and most institutions of higher education preach atheism. If you dont believe as they do then they dont want you on staff … or even graduating for that matter. If a person doesnt believe as they do he/ she had better keep their views to themselves… or risk low grades and possible failure.
 
Then why would you use the scientific method as the measure of the efficacy of prayer, or demand that everything the Church professes be subject to the scientific method? :confused:
Because many people pray with the expectation of some real world effect, e.g. healing or help with some material need such as food. Since people are operating under the claim that prayer has real world implications and science studies real world phenomenon, it makes perfect sense for science to investigate whether prayer has these alleged capacities.

Claims by the church which are testable should be. For example if a religion took the position that abstinence only education lowers the incidence of STDs more than other forms of sex ed, that is a claim that can and should be evaluated scientifically. If the church makes the claim that God has 3 persons, there is really no scientific investigation to be done.
 
Typical lib response. You know what I meant. If you didnt … conversation will probably end quickly.
Doesnt matter what they used to be called. Atheism is faith based… and most institutions of higher education preach atheism. If you dont believe as they do then they dont want you on staff … or even graduating for that matter. If a person doesnt believe as they do he/ she had better keep their views to themselves… or risk low grades and possible failure.
So the large numbers of Catholic and Christian universities don’t count as institutions of higher education? Moreover, since it is illegal for public employers to discriminate on the basis of religion you are accusing a large number of respected institutions of being actively criminal. If your position were valid, I would suppose that we would see a large number of discrimination lawsuits with religious people earning significant rewards.

When you say “keep their views to themselves” I wonder what you mean. Could you refer to proselytizing to students in the classroom? This would be unprofessional conduct whether it was done by a professor or student and would likely be grounds for disciplinary action. Could you mean refusing to learn the material in the class, say evolution, based on religious beliefs? Because if you are taking a science class, you are expressing a desire to learn the current best scientific understanding of some subject. Demanding some religious alternative is a waste of time because it does not reflect the best scientific understanding. There are places to learn religious theories, but the science classroom is not one of them.
 
Because many people pray with the expectation of some real world effect, e.g. healing or help with some material need such as food. Since people are operating under the claim that prayer has real world implications and science studies real world phenomenon, it makes perfect sense for science to investigate whether prayer has these alleged capacities.
Many people are doing it wrong. God is not a cosmic slot machine.
Claims by the church which are testable should be. For example if a religion took the position that abstinence only education lowers the incidence of STDs more than other forms of sex ed, that is a claim that can and should be evaluated scientifically. If the church makes the claim that God has 3 persons, there is really no scientific investigation to be done.
Condom distribution leads to higher rates of HIV infection, abstinence leads to lower rates of HIV infection. Science undisputedly affirms this fact.
 
So the large numbers of Catholic and Christian universities don’t count as institutions of higher education?
Thats a rabbit trail and you know it. You got my point.
Moreover, since it is illegal for public employers to discriminate on the basis of religion you are accusing a large number of respected institutions of being actively criminal. If your position were valid, I would suppose that we would see a large number of discrimination lawsuits with religious people earning significant rewards.

When you say “keep their views to themselves” I wonder what you mean. Could you refer to proselytizing to students in the classroom? This would be unprofessional conduct whether it was done by a professor or student and would likely be grounds for disciplinary action. Could you mean refusing to learn the material in the class, say evolution, based on religious beliefs? Because if you are taking a science class, you are expressing a desire to learn the current best scientific understanding of some subject. Demanding some religious alternative is a waste of time because it does not reflect the best scientific understanding. There are places to learn religious theories, but the science classroom is not one of them.
All of this is liberal canned drivel that ignores any reality that is not in your head.

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
imdb.com/title/tt1091617/
 
News Update:

Univ. of Kentucky settles lawsuit from astronomer
An astronomy professor who sued the University of Kentucky after claiming he lost out on a top job because of his Christian beliefs reached a settlement Tuesday with the school.
The university agreed to pay $125,000 to Martin Gaskell in exchange for dropping a federal religious discrimination suit he filed in Lexington in 2009. A trial was set for next month.
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110118/ap_on_re_us/us_astronomer_religious_suit;_ylt=Apf8piLBsPxDcsKCGpoRIF87Xs8F;_ylu=X3oDMTMzMHI4c2EwBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwMTE4L3VzX2FzdHJvbm9tZXJfcmVsaWdpb3VzX3N1aXQEcG9zAzI1BHNlYwN5bl9wYWdpbmF0ZV9zdW1tYXJ5X2xpc3QEc2xrA3VuaXZvZmtlbnR1Yw–
 
Thanks for the Update, Dale. The settlement might be all right with both sides, but it still sends a chilling message to any person of faith who wishes to be hired in any field of science. The counsel for UK states as much:
A statement from University of Kentucky counsel Barbara Jones Tuesday said the school’s “hiring processes were and are fundamentally sound and were followed in this case.” The university does not admit any wrongdoing.
“This successful resolution precludes what would have been a lengthy trial that, ultimately, would not have served anyone’s best interests,” Jones said in the statement.
IOW, UK isn’t responsible for its actions nor for the prejudice shown by its staff. Yeah, Right. :rolleyes: And so nothing changes. Big victory. Not.
 
IOW, UK isn’t responsible for its actions nor for the prejudice shown by its staff. Yeah, Right. :rolleyes: And so nothing changes. Big victory. Not.
I am not a lawyer, and perhaps our attorney friends here can offer perspective, but I think it is standard in out of court settlements for the “losing” side to state that they are not admitting guilt or wrongdoing.

I dunno… a big victory? Probably not. I suppose it would have needed to go to trial for that. However, I do think that the case will have gotten the attention of universities across the US. And that the University of Kentucky settled out of court does signal that they recognized that Gaskell had a solid case. I think that will be noticed by other schools as well.
 
I am not a lawyer, and perhaps our attorney friends here can offer perspective, but I think it is standard in out of court settlements for the “losing” side to state that they are not admitting guilt or wrongdoing.

I dunno… a big victory? Probably not. I suppose it would have needed to go to trial for that. However, I do think that the case will have gotten the attention of universities across the US. And that the University of Kentucky settled out of court does signal that they recognized that Gaskell had a solid case. I think that will be noticed by other schools as well.
I hope you’re right. 🙂 It’s about time people of faith began to stand up for their rights instead of letting atheism rule our schools and universities as if atheism were the default position every teacher/professor has to claim in order to teach in this country or do research or be hired as a scientist any where. It’s not right, fair nor is that what our Founding Fathers had in mind for America.
 
Thats a rabbit trail and you know it. You got my point.

All of this is liberal canned drivel that ignores any reality that is not in your head.

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
imdb.com/title/tt1091617/
Expelled was a terrible film, did you know that the filmmakers lied to some of the scientists in order to get the statements they wanted? Moreover, it was filled with factual inaccuracies. For example, it claims Richard Sternberg was fired for allowing a paper which supported ID to be published. In reality he was not an employee, nor removed from his unpaid position until 2007. He was, however, criticized for not following appropriate peer review procedures.

I think Ed Brayton said it best:
“The intelligent design (ID) movement has long labored to inculcate two mutually exclusive falsehoods in the minds of the public: A) that ID is a purely scientific theory that has nothing to do with religion; and B) that any objection to ID is evidence of bias and discrimination against religion.”
 
I am not a lawyer, and perhaps our attorney friends here can offer perspective, but I think it is standard in out of court settlements for the “losing” side to state that they are not admitting guilt or wrongdoing.

I dunno… a big victory? Probably not. I suppose it would have needed to go to trial for that. However, I do think that the case will have gotten the attention of universities across the US. And that the University of Kentucky settled out of court does signal that they recognized that Gaskell had a solid case. I think that will be noticed by other schools as well.
No. It is a very simple business decision. It is likely that they predicted that their legal costs would exceed the $125,000 they settled for and simply decided to take the cheaper route.
 
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