Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution

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Evolution is so much more than Darwin, though.
It is also so much less than Darwin.
And since science has little to say about theology, just take out the theological parts and you’re left with a description of what happens in God’s created nature.
Again, you’re arguing a different point here. If I have to take the theological parts out of a science text, then at least you should concede that the theological views have some importance on the text.
Your arguments have so far done nothing to suggest that what evolution describes is not accurately what happens in nature.
Since “my arguments” thus far didn’t address that question I don’t think you should have been looking for that kind of answer from me. What I did address was supported by ample direct quotations from source documents and from biographers.
What is any more wrong with such a description than other scientific theories and laws, such as relativity theory and the laws of physics?
I explained that to you already. You skipped over what I said and simply asked the same question again (and now again).
 
Reggie, thank you for taking the time to answer, in detail, why you think Darwin wrote his theory of evolution in order to show that God was not involved in the development of nature.
The most famous quote proving this is:

“I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.” (Darwin’s letter to Asa Gray)

The purpose of Darwin’s theory was to explain the suffering and death that he saw in nature.
I’m not so sure about that. It would be easier to imagine a God who is brutal and largely indifferent to the suffering of animals (as some Protestants do). That Darwin would reject such a God, I think shows he still clung to some of the Christianity to which he held previously. I don’t think the quote indicates he was on a task to develop a non-religious explanation for animal suffering. You are attaching an interpretation to his words which isn’t contained within them.

Its an intriguing speculation that Darwin was driven by a need to push God behind the curtains. But I think we should be careful about conflating a person’s religious troubles with the scientific enterprise.
The idea of natural selection proposes that there is a ruthless competition in nature and some species win and others lose – and ugliness, death and cruelty are the accidental, random, unconscious results or mutations and selection pressures. Thus, God is removed from nature entirely.
I don’t think there is any question that nature involves a ruthless competition for life. Growing up in cities, we are often far removed from nature and have a romanticized notion of it, thinking of wild animals as potential pets. But nature is all about competition, predation, and the struggle for survival.

Darwin’s genius is to extend this easily observed notion into something larger, involving entire species and not just individuals. Yes, the mechanics of natural selection doesn’t invoke God. But it is entirely reasonable to view God as pulling the strings of evolution.

I think we need to remember that scientific explanations of natural phenomena need to be provable. An explanation of observations which relies on God is unprovable - it is an interpretation which falls outside science, and more properly within religion.
Here’s a quote where he makes that clear:

"The old argument of design in nature, as given by Paley, which formerly seemed to me so conclusive, fails, now that the law of natural selection has been discovered. We can no longer argue that, for instance, the beautiful hinge of a bivalve shell must have been made by an intelligent being, like the hinge of a door by man. … Everything in nature is the result of fixed laws." (The Autobiography of Charles Darwin)

This is the foundation of evolutionary theory. “Everything in nature is the result of fixed laws”.
I think it is a very reasonable assumption that God made the world to run according to set laws. It would be hard for mankind to understand and hold dominion over the world if it were any other way. This doesn’t mean that God isn’t involved, nor does it reduce God to a Deistic clockmaker. When God intervenes it is most notable when he sets aside the laws of nature - what we call miracles. But that doesn’t mean that God can’t be involved in less noticeable ways.

Darwin’s enterprise seems basic science: making observations, then proposing generalizations and theories which would allow predictions of future observations.
This indicates Darwin’s theological motive.
The quote indicates that Darwin was clinging to a rather rosy image of God and that he had trouble reconciling this God of his with the suffering in nature. But the theory of evolution doesn’t explain away suffering in nature, either.
Here are a few more quotes that give proof of the same thing:

The Descent of Man was written to show Lyell, Gray, and Wallace that a God-less account, relying on random variation, natural selection, and sexual selection, could explain every aspect of human nature that might appear too elevated, too divine-like, to have been caused by natural processes alone. Morality was just one aspect Darwin attempted to explain, but it is important that it must be understood as an attempt to remove any need for God. Darwin’s is strictly and exactly speaking, a God-less account of morality.
discovery.org/a/9591

I am unfamiliar with Darwin’s views about morality. And I’m not sure the Discovery Institute is an objective judge of Darwin. At any rate, the gentlemen your quote mentioned were contemporaries of Darwin, but this was also the time of the development of the scientific method. So debate about the scientific enterprise, and whether it could be freed from reliance on God as an explanation, probably was inevitable.

Thank you for taking the time to explain your thoughts in detail. I remain skeptical, but I can see why you might accept your points.​
 
Again, you’re arguing a different point here. If I have to take the theological parts out of a science text, then at least you should concede that the theological views have some importance on the text.
Why? Some people draw theological conclusions from evolutionary theory, using evolutionary theory as a premise to the conclusions. The premises need not be influenced by a conclusion in an argument. The premises can stand or fall on their own.
Since “my arguments” thus far didn’t address that question I don’t think you should have been looking for that kind of answer from me. What I did address was supported by ample direct quotations from source documents and from biographers.
So you’re not questioning the scientific accuracy of evolutionary theory?
I explained that to you already. You skipped over what I said and simply asked the same question again (and now again).
Where did you answer that? By trying to say there’s a theological component to evolution, but not to the others? People certainly have extrapolated other natural laws and theories into the theological realm. Aside from that, it just gets back to my point about the validity of the actual scientific theories, apart from theological extrapolations. If Relativity Theory can be accurate, why can’t Evolutionary Theory? Just saying that the first man to posit the theory had an agenda, or that others since them have made erroneous theological conclusions, says nothing about the merit of the theory in describing what we observe in nature.

In other words, your sour grapes over Darwin and evolutionists constitutes ad hominem diversions from the actual argument: the validity of evolutionary theory. You have not actually presented an argument that questions the validity of the theory itself.
 
Even Pope Benedict, realizing how “science” is viewed today – as this almost Ultra-Orthodox Religion, said “we must have the audacity to say” we are not haphazard mistakes.

That is the crux of all the debates here.

Or, like the game Simon Says. Science Says this is reality, Science Says that is reality, but God? Science didn’t say!

On a Catholic Forum, the clear, unalterable conclusion is that human beings were willed by God and not by some mindless, mechanistic, who knows what would have happened process. The minor deity in the Evolution Pantheon, Stephen Gould, said that if we could rewind the process of evolution things would have turned out differently. He doesn’t know that. However, his belief system compels him.

And the public who reads Gould thinks that his musings are as factual as his science, which I find lacking, by the way. Punctuated equillibrium being a fine piece of imagination but little else.

Peace,
Ed
 
Dale M – thanks for a considerate and insightful reply. I agree that the issue is not totally cut-and-dried because there is some ambiguity about Darwin’s belief.
I think it is a very reasonable assumption that God made the world to run according to set laws. It would be hard for mankind to understand and hold dominion over the world if it were any other way. This doesn’t mean that God isn’t involved, nor does it reduce God to a Deistic clockmaker. When God intervenes it is most notable when he sets aside the laws of nature - what we call miracles. But that doesn’t mean that God can’t be involved in less noticeable ways.
The concern I had with the quote was that it states that **everything **in nature is the result of fixed laws. Some things are but not everything. I also think it is difficult to hold the view that God intervenes in nature and also keep a mainstream evolutionary view.
 
Dale M – thanks for a considerate and insightful reply. I agree that the issue is not totally cut-and-dried because there is some ambiguity about Darwin’s belief.

The concern I had with the quote was that it states that **everything **in nature is the result of fixed laws. Some things are but not everything. I also think it is difficult to hold the view that God intervenes in nature and also keep a mainstream evolutionary view.
Since when does God intervene in nature?
 
Since when does God intervene in nature?
Catholics are taught that Adam and Eve were two individuals and our first parents. Eve was made from Adam’s side. If God is the Creator God, as opposed to God the kick starter, then God can also send His Son to stand in our place as a sacrifice for the sin committed by one man.

Peace,
Ed
 
Catholics are taught that Adam and Eve were two individuals and our first parents. Eve was made from Adam’s side. If God is the Creator God, as opposed to God the kick starter, then God can also send His Son to stand in our place as a sacrifice for the sin committed by one man.

Peace,
Ed
Understood, but you made it sound like God intervenes all the time in physics and biology on a daily basis
 
Since when does God intervene in nature?
Miracles occur when God sets aside the laws of nature.

And we often pray so that God will intervene with nature, to save lives in hurricanes and floods, when dealing with cancer, etc.

Are you saying that such prayers are ineffective and that miracles do not occur?
 
Miracles occur when God sets aside the laws of nature.

And we often pray so that God will intervene with nature, to save lives in hurricanes and floods, when dealing with cancer, etc.

Are you saying that such prayers are ineffective and that miracles do not occur?
I understand prayer to be us talking to God and him hearing us, at the very least, yet I still am unsure whether he will divinely intervene for us in our daily lives in any supernatural way. On the one hand he could if he so wished, yet on the other hand some theorize that he let’s for the most part with most people in life simply allow nature and their own decisions take course. It would be his way in this theory of us having to deal with the life and times and trials that he put us in and if he were to grant our wishes all the time some might view that as pandering and it would not allow us to grow up spiritually. I dunno whether thats true or not, it’s just one idea.
 
And the public who reads Gould thinks that his musings are as factual as his science, which I find lacking, by the way. Punctuated equillibrium being a fine piece of imagination but little else.

Peace,
Ed
Punctuated equilibrium is a part of the theory of evolution that was invented to cover up the fact that the fossil record didn’t show the gradual change necessary for evolution to be true. Evolutionary theory is so plastic that there can be no “evidence” that could be presented to refute it, since all the evidence is interpreted to fit the theory.
 
Punctuated equilibrium is a part of the theory of evolution that was invented to cover up the fact that the fossil record didn’t show the gradual change necessary for evolution to be true. Evolutionary theory is so plastic that there can be no “evidence” that could be presented to refute it, since all the evidence is interpreted to fit the theory.
Why not open your eyes every once in a while?

images.google.com/images?as_q=fossil+record&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&imgtype=&imgsz=&imgw=&imgh=&as_filetype=&imgc=&as_sitesearch=&safe=off&as_st=y
 
Evolutionary theory is so plastic that there can be no “evidence” that could be presented to refute it, since all the evidence is interpreted to fit the theory.
And when critical evidence points contrary to their precious theory, it gets quickly discarded. After all, atheists must have something to believe in too; the god of chance.
Why not open your eyes every once in a while?
It is also called buying into speculative extrapolation, or in other words, wishful thinking.
 
Originally Posted by redneck22
Evolutionary theory is so plastic that there can be no “evidence” that could be presented to refute it, since all the evidence is interpreted to fit the theory.
And when critical evidence points contrary to their precious theory, it gets quickly discarded. After all, atheists must have something to believe in too; the god of chance.
Whilst catholics believe in miracles, atheists rely on miracles. The miracle of life from lifeless chemicals, fish eventually reproduce into birds, and apes finally able to write about theories of evolution, and all this happened “naturally” with no intelligent design.
 
I understand prayer to be us talking to God and him hearing us, at the very least, yet I still am unsure whether he will divinely intervene for us in our daily lives in any supernatural way. On the one hand he could if he so wished, yet on the other hand some theorize that he let’s for the most part with most people in life simply allow nature and their own decisions take course. It would be his way in this theory of us having to deal with the life and times and trials that he put us in and if he were to grant our wishes all the time some might view that as pandering and it would not allow us to grow up spiritually. I dunno whether thats true or not, it’s just one idea.
What information and methods would you use to confirm or verify the truth or error of your thoughts on this issue?
 
Punctuated equilibrium is a part of the theory of evolution that was invented to cover up the fact that the fossil record didn’t show the gradual change necessary for evolution to be true. Evolutionary theory is so plastic that there can be no “evidence” that could be presented to refute it, since all the evidence is interpreted to fit the theory.
All scientific theories are “plastic.” The theories change to fit the evidence. This is the nature of all science. What’s the problem?
 
Catholics are taught that Adam and Eve were two individuals and our first parents. Eve was made from Adam’s side. If God is the Creator God, as opposed to God the kick starter, then God can also send His Son to stand in our place as a sacrifice for the sin committed by one man.

Peace,
Ed
This is entirely consistent with a belief that God established and uses evolutionary processes. Natural processes continue according to His unchanging nature; His laws, which one could say are part of Him, function consistently and are self-sustaining. Evolution of biological organisms is how God constantly creates anew.

On the supernatural level, in the realm of souls and relationships, God acts in other ways, for these are not ruled by His natural laws. And so we have Adam and Eve, God creating Man through the institution of a soul in His image and likeness. And so we have all of revelation, as God supernaturally reveals Himself to us. And so we have miracles, where God supernaturally intervenes, suspending His natural laws on our behalf, to reveal Himself, to help His children, to benefit us in some way. And so we have Christ, where God became man.

I really just don’t see what the complaint is against evolution as a description of natural processes. God acts on both the natural level (through evolution, among other things) and on the supernatural level. Yes, some people make more of it than it is, trying to make pronouncements about God, but there is simply no data for them to do so (it goes beyond the scope of science; by definition, “supernatural” things are beyond nature), so all such conclusions are mere speculation, not legitimate outgrowths of natural evolution.
 
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