SCOTUS allows border wall to continue

[Horton]

anti-immigrant animus

This is what you and the whole left WANT to believe the issue is. However it has nothing to do with immigrant at all, it’s the illegal part that is the issue.

The most divisive thing the left does is to attempt to rename an issue for the right and then play it up. The right is anti-immigrant, the right doesn’t want anyone from south of the border here, the right hates mexicans, President Trump called ALL mexicans rapists and murders, President Trump wants to build a wall to keep ALL mexicans out of America.

None of that is true, the left knows none of that is true, the left knows the people don’t know it’s not true and most of them will never bother to fact check whether it’s true or not so the play it for all it’s worth. We have proof on this forum.

 

[Nepperhan]

This is what you and the whole left WANT to believe the issue is. However it has nothing to do with immigrant at all, it’s the illegal part that is the issue.

You do realize that many of the immigrants who arrived in America post-1922 are illegal immigrants? That was when what really was an anti-Italian and anti-southern European immigration law became effective in the US. All this rhetoric about ‘but they are illegal’ is really beside the point when one considers the reality: The undocumented worker situation in the US is what it is by design and it aids business interests here.

Trump never had an issue with the undocumented until he was running for political office and found he could get mileage out of the issue. We have proof of that, too.

 

[blackforest]

LOL, yea, that could be the case! https://www.wearelatinlive.com/arti...g_yhDYxrHPR_pRfiMIEiLOApZKblChIIhT2IgJ_F-YtaU

plus the drug and sex trafficking trades,

This is going on by commercial carrier. You need a roof to stop it, not a wall.

 

[Horton]

The Democratic party was against illegal immigration until Trump said he was against it. We have proof of that too.

 

[Ender]

What do the Bishops have to say about this wall and welcoming the stranger as we are commanded in the Gospel.

Or is that just “prudential judgement”.

Inasmuch as the belief that the wall is a good idea or a bad one is (yes) a prudential judgment and not a moral choice, the opinions of a handful of bishops are really not that significant. The church has no doctrines that would prohibit building a wall to control who can or cannot enter a country.

No, I think a person’s politics makes him or her ignore facts, I do.

Facts are hard to come by on this topic, so it really isn’t so much that “facts” are being ignored as it is a question of choosing between competing forms of evidence.

If I recall, didn’t Schumer offer Trump $8 billion for the Wall? So Trump ends up going to court to get $2.5 billion? And got turned down for the Dreamers besides? Some businessman.

If Schumer ever offered to pay for the wall it came with caveats that made it unacceptable. As for the Dreamers, it was Trump that offered to allow them if the Dems put up money for the wall.

It appears that the illegal residents commit fewer crimes than the legal residents.

You cite this as a fact when it is no more of a fact than the claim that there is life elsewhere in our solar system. It may be true, but believing it is an act of faith; it is not fact. As WingedHussar has said, that claim could only be true if one ignores all the misdemeanor crimes they commit. I doubt that the claim would be true of felonies only, but it is unquestionably untrue when on includes procuring fraudulent social security numbers, obtaining false drivers’ licenses, using fraudulent green cards, and improperly accessing public benefits.

 

[Nepperhan]

As WingedHussar has said, that claim could only be true if one ignores all the misdemeanor crimes they commit.

No, that poster stated the fact that their very presence in America is a crime, which is irrelevant and beside the point. The question is their activity in America; not how they arrived in America.

 

[Ender]

No, that poster stated the fact that their very presence in America is a crime, which is irrelevant and beside the point. The question is their activity in America; not how they arrived in America.

What he said was “Only if the crimes they commit are ignored…” What is undeniably true is that all the claims that illegals commit fewer crimes than citizens are based on calculations of felony crimes (and even that number is at best a SWAG). As was stated, their (misdemeanor) crimes are ignored irrespective of the crime of illegal entry.

 

[ProVobis]

If Schumer ever offered to pay for the wall it came with caveats that made it unacceptable. As for the Dreamers, it was Trump that offered to allow them if the Dems put up money for the wall.

That was my understanding as well. Of course there are caveats in these dealings. The military gets 2.5 billion less in the current “settlement.” But seeing that $10 trillion (counting possible Fed purchases of corporate securities) is being bounced around to resolve the virus crisis, what is 2.5 billion? Why is this even newsworthy?

 

[Nepperhan]

What is undeniably true is that all the claims that illegals commit fewer crimes than citizens are based on calculations of felony crimes (and even that number is at best a SWAG). As was stated, their (misdemeanor) crimes are ignored irrespective of the crime of illegal entry.

No that is true only if you ignore statistics.

 

[Ender]

No that is true only if you ignore statistics.

You don’t seem to appreciate how a study works. The conclusions are educated guesses based on estimates. In this case they have to estimate (guess) the number of crimes committed by illegals - that number doesn’t actually exist anywhere - and they have to estimate the total number of illegals, another number that doesn’t exist. So the ratio of crimes per unit population is determined by dividing one guess by another guess.

That’s why different studies come up with completely different results, so it isn’t a matter of ignoring statistics but of choosing one methodology over another - one set of estimates relative to a second set.

Beyond that, the study you cited acknowledged they didn’t look at all crimes, but only 44/46 different ones. Do these represent all the major categories of illegal crimes? Who knows? A different study done by FAIR (Federation of American Immigration Reform) found that illegal crime rates are three times higher than the rate for citizens. Is that a more accurate assessment? Who knows, but the idea that the CATO numbers represent some kind of definitive “statistics” is ludicrous.

 

[signit]

A couple other routine crimes illegal immigrants commit is driving without a license and driving without insurance. Living in a very rural area with a large immigrant population this is a big problem here. They don’t know the rules of the road, they can’t read in English, maybe not even in Spanish, so they don’t know what the signs say except maybe the stop sign. This has been the cause of many accidents, some very serious, in my area. There is no recourse because how do you hold an illegal immigrant accountable for financial restitution?

Right, like the Matthew Denice case:

article

One of them was Maureen Maloney of Milford. Her son was killed in August 2011 by Nicolas Guaman, a native of Ecuador, who was driving drunk when he ran a stop sign and knocked Matthew Denice off his motorcycle.

“My name is Maureen Maloney and my son Matthew Denice was 23-years old when he was dragged a quarter-mile to his death by an illegal alien while horrified witnesses were banging on the truck trying to stop him,” she told the audience.

Guaman was later found guilty of vehicular homicide while driving negligently and under the influence of alcohol, driving without a license, leaving the scene of a personal injury accident resulting in death, failure to stop for police and reckless endangerment of a child, Guaman’s own six-year-old son who was in the pickup truck with him.

He was sentenced to 12 years in prison in May 2014. Guaman had lived in the U.S. illegally for nine years before the crash.

And, I might add:

He had been in this country illegally for nine years and did not know one word of English.

He didn’t stop as he was dragging the motorcyclist to death because he was more concerned with his own self and what would have happened if he had gotten caught.

And he was in possession of a MassHealth card. He was getting public assistance.

And these stories typically don’t make the mainstream media. After all they’re more interested in making the illegal aliens look like the poor little victims.

 

[signit]

Nepperhan:

No that is true only if you ignore statistics.

You don’t seem to appreciate how a study works. The conclusions are educated guesses based on estimates. In this case they have to estimate (guess) the number of crimes committed by illegals - that number doesn’t actually exist anywhere - and they have to estimate the total number of illegals, another number that doesn’t exist. So the ratio of crimes per unit population is determined by dividing one guess by another guess.

That’s why different studies come up with completely different results, so it isn’t a matter of ignoring statistics but of choosing one methodology over another - one set of estimates relative to a second set.

Beyond that, the study you cited acknowledged they didn’t look at all crimes, but only 44/46 different ones. Do these represent all the major categories of illegal crimes? Who knows? A different study done by FAIR (Federation of American Immigration Reform) found that illegal crime rates are three times higher than the rate for citizens. Is that a more accurate assessment? Who knows, but the idea that the CATO numbers represent some kind of definitive “statistics” is ludicrous.

And even if illegal aliens were not more likely as a class to commit crimes:

The fact remains that the particular crimes they commit would not have been committed if they were not in this country.

If the illegal alien drunk driver in my earlier post had not been in this country the motorcyclist who was a recent college graduate planning to be a police officer wouldn’t have been killed.

 

[Nepperhan]

If the illegal alien drunk driver in my earlier post had not been in this country the motorcyclist who was a recent college graduate planning to be a police officer wouldn’t have been killed.

That’s speculation. All we know is that the person would not be in the country. For all we know the victim could be struck by lightning the same day; absent the undocumented driver.

 

[signit]

signit:

If the illegal alien drunk driver in my earlier post had not been in this country the motorcyclist who was a recent college graduate planning to be a police officer wouldn’t have been killed.

That’s speculation. All we know is that the person would not be in the country. For all we know the victim could be struck by lightning the same day; absent the undocumented driver.

Honestly I’m so sick of that argument.

It’s the “meteorite” argument. That innocent person might have been killed by a meteorite if they hadn’t been killed by the illegal alien.

But they might not have been killed by a meteorite. They probably would have been left alone to live their lives.

 

[Sarcelle]

And he was in possession of a MassHealth card. He was getting public assistance.

I bet you his possession of a health card was possibly due to forged documents. Forged documents which is based on a stolen identity. Identify theft is a thriving black market activity which has a ready market among illegal immigrants.

Identify theft is not a victimless crime.

 

[Sarcelle]

President Trump called ALL mexicans rapists and murders,

Did he really say that?

He said that there is a strong criminal element among the people who illegally cross the border from Mexico. He is right. The cartel has an operation smuggling people and drugs across the border. Human trafficking and drugs, the bread and butter of these cartels.

How do I know?

I have family members who were right for border patrol, working on the border between Texas and Mexico. They tell me a lot of stories.

 

[signit]

Horton:

President Trump called ALL mexicans rapists and murders,

Did he really say that?

He said that there is a strong criminal element among the people who illegally cross the border from Mexico. He is right. The cartel has an operation smuggling people and drugs across the border. Human trafficking and drugs, the bread and butter of these cartels.

How do I know?

I have family members who were right for border patrol, working on the border between Texas and Mexico. They tell me a lot of stories.

Correct; he did not say “all.”

article

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best,” he said during the announcement.

“They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems. They’re bringing drugs, they’re bringing crime. They’re rapists and some, I assume, are good people, but I speak to border guards and they’re telling us what we’re getting."

The “they” apparently refers to the subcategory mentioned earlier of “people that have lots of problems.”

Not all Mexican people.