Scourging Oneself?

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Edward_H said:
Dorothy gave us a wonderful answer. I am not sure it’s really our business to question what some struggler and his/her spiritual director decides is a good means of ascetism to pursue. Celibate people may need more help. It’s easy to question this or that, without understanding the depth of struggle and conversation that has gone on between a struggler and the spiritual director.

Maybe we turn our attention away from the more dramatic means of mortification (I see you have posted elsewhere on this topic) and instead examine more deeply the ordinary means that we can use to hone our will in line with God, and to - little by little - detach from the the pursuit of comfort for comfort’s sake.

Again, Dorothy’s response was excellent.
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I truly agree friend. Your point is well taken.
 
Venite wonders : “What is the Church’s teaching on inflicting bodily harm upon oneself … ?
What is your opinion of it?
I was thinking earlier, and it seems as though many of the reasons people fast are the same reasons people have scourged themselves.”

The Vatican does NOT ban people from performing rituals which can scar or cause pain to the participant.
Many Catholic Saints have participated in ritual scourging, and a 100 other practices that have fallen from use in the Modern World.

My opinion of the practice of causing pain to oneself : Do it. Then afterwards, decide if it helped you to get (somehow) closer to God.
If it helped you get closer to God, then do it again (or, a different form of it).
I have attempted MANY rituals, in the hope that by participating, I can get close to God for a few seconds.

Although I have not permanently scarred myself as a ritual, I fully support any-and-all practices by a person to oneself.
There are various reasons a person will scourge himself:
  1. to knock down his ego
  2. to feel how martyrs must have felt (and, become like a martyr)
  3. to tell others that he is serious about doing whatever is needed to move further down the spiritual path
  4. to see if it could help you to feel closer to Jesus, or
  5. many other possible reasons.
Different strokes for different folks.
Remember, not many centuries ago, scourging was a much-more-common practice than it is today.
(Jesus himself willingly participated in a 30-Lash scourging, and it worked out pretty well for Him.)
 
Without obedience to a spiritual director, excessive mortification can be a source of pride.
 
physical mortification (with a discipline) is rare but can be consistent with Catholic thought.

I don’t believe it is something, in general, to be undertaken by laymen but is, maybe? done by some religious. I don’t believe this type of thing is common at all- even among priests and Bishops.

Spiritual direction is always required for such things.
 
I find it clears the head of intrusive chatter and helps focus on applying dicipline to key areas of behaviors. I pray with people frequently so I think the responsibility to subdue my issues before the Lord in private is paramount to being the best representative for Christ I can be.

Yes, my back is a bit sore, but my spirit is feeling purposeful and productive in working to be a better servant and that is such Joy! And who said flagellation makes one proud? Unless one is an idiot doing it as a public display. It breaks you down to tears and hurts. But the welts leave quickly, yet the resulting awareness and sensitivity to certain sins is greatly amplified. Makes one proud? Really? Again, it breaks you down.

Still, some may play the “I’m more humble than you” card.

I find more humility in the people I visit wanting to invite Jesus in their lives for the first time, and they weep. That is very humbling. Let no pride even show it’s ugly head.

For most people, mortify in acts of kindness, fasting, and be in service to others. I follow that too as best as I can but being Diabetic fasting is out, I now have found my key niche for Mortification. But few should attempt “The Dicipline” without guidance. Self punishment can become a very slippery and a dangerous move. Be aware of this.
 
Corporal mortification came from the days when capital punishment and torture were the norm. It’s from a mindset of punishment and reward, where suffering is seen as a higher virtue than happiness.

I think to fall back to such a practice is spiritually digressive and some who inflict such punishments on themselves, easily do so to a greater degree on others, including children and animals.

The Church turns a blind eye to the practice while yet condemning extreme forms of corporal mortification such as self-crucifixion, but the message is contradicting.

St Theresa herself opposed this and said that there are enough thorns in life to offer in penance without adding more.

Don’t confuse fasting with corporal mortification, unless the fasting is to the extreme of causing damage to one’s health.

Fasting is a discipline. Self flagellation is a derangement,

Jim
 
Saint Seraphim of Sarov
  1. On Care of the Soul
We should have every concern for our soul, and should strengthen our body for this reason only, that it may assist in the strengthening of the soul.

Voluntarily to exhaust our body to the point that the spirit is exhausted is an unreasonable mortification, even if it is done to acquire virtue.

Peace
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Corporal mortification came from the days when capital punishment and torture were the norm. It’s from a mindset of punishment and reward, where suffering is seen as a higher virtue than happiness.

I think to fall back to such a practice is spiritually digressive and some who inflict such punishments on themselves, easily do so to a greater degree on others, including children and animals.

The Church turns a blind eye to the practice while yet condemning extreme forms of corporal mortification such as self-crucifixion, but the message is contradicting.

St Theresa herself opposed this and said that there are enough thorns in life to offer in penance without adding more.

Don’t confuse fasting with corporal mortification, unless the fasting is to the extreme of causing damage to one’s health.

Fasting is a discipline. Self flagellation is a derangement,

Jim
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Are you categorizing my dicipline with hurting others as a sociopath would? I would never harm another creature or person. And neither do I advise anyone to partake in it. If derangement is your definition of those who dicipline themselves, and you consider all who practice this as dangerous moronic goons seeking to harm others, I guess all the other people in the past were indeed very dangerous. I do take issue with your comments very seriously.
 
Man_of_War said:
Are you categorizing my dicipline with hurting others as a sociopath would? I would never harm another creature or person. And neither do I advise anyone to partake in it. If derangement is your definition of those who dicipline themselves, and you consider all who practice this as dangerous moronic goons seeking to harm others, I guess all the other people in the past were indeed very dangerous. I do take issue with your comments very seriously.
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Self-Discipline and causing self-inflicted pain are two different things.

One builds character, the other in this day and age, borders a psychotic disorder.

As I said, SOME people will carry this to disciplining children and animals.

Jim
 
Jesus said “Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof” the church does ask us to fast to put us in the spirit of moritifying ourselves in order to emphasize the spirtitual because we can become very taken up with worldly values and lose our spiritual perspective. No need to beat our selves to become holy the world does that.
 
Edward_H said:
Dorothy gave us a wonderful answer. I am not sure it’s really our business to question what some struggler and his/her spiritual director decides is a good means of ascetism to pursue. Celibate people may need more help. It’s easy to question this or that, without understanding the depth of struggle and conversation that has gone on between a struggler and the spiritual director.

Maybe we turn our attention away from the more dramatic means of mortification (I see you have posted elsewhere on this topic) and instead examine more deeply the ordinary means that we can use to hone our will in line with God, and to - little by little - detach from the the pursuit of comfort for comfort’s sake.

Again, Dorothy’s response was excellent.
Click to expand...
Edward H, you quoted from St. Escriva on mortification in another thread that I can’t find. Pretty much what Dorothy said but his words…do you have them handy? There were two quotes and they might be helpful.

BTW, I finally picked up “He and I” by Gabrielle Bossis that you mentioned in a thread awhile ago.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Self-Discipline and causing self-inflicted pain are two different things.

One builds character, the other in this day and age, borders a psychotic disorder.

As I said, SOME people will carry this to disciplining children and animals.

Jim
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Jim, For me it is for self-dicipline in trying to be closer to what Jesus expects us to be in charector. Welts are only temporary and sessions are fairly sort. Just enough to focus on behavioral sins to prevent repeat offenses. Christ said to be Holy as he is Holy, I find the trip to Holyness very painful but rewarding. Will I ever get there? Not Likely at this rate, but I enjoy serving him in praying with people.

Though I can see your point in that some self-loathing angry depressed individual could take it so far as to bleed and not care, only masochistic mutilating minded individuals go that far. They need counseling at that point because I’ve heard that leads to cutting. Very bad indeed.

But hurting people or animals, I don’t make that conection. I love them dearly.

Thank you for your post Jim.
 
Man_of_War said:
Jim, For me it is for self-dicipline in trying to be closer to what Jesus expects us to be in charector. Welts are only temporary and sessions are fairly sort. Just enough to focus on behavioral sins to prevent repeat offenses. Christ said to be Holy as he is Holy, I find the trip to Holyness very painful but rewarding. Will I ever get there? Not Likely at this rate, but I enjoy serving him in praying with people.

Though I can see your point in that some self-loathing angry depressed individual could take it so far as to bleed and not care, only masochistic mutilating minded individuals go that far. They need counseling at that point because I’ve heard that leads to cutting. Very bad indeed.

But hurting people or animals, I don’t make that conection. I love them dearly.

Thank you for your post Jim.
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Mental discipline is a greater obstacle to over come, where beating yourself will probably cause more problems than solve in the end.

The mortification of getting up in the morning and doing exercise followed by prayer and meditation every day is a great exercise in self-discipline and opportunity for mortification.

Being patient with people who are difficult, is greater.

Being charitable in the face of greed even more difficult.

Most of all, being forgiving of yourself, as Christ has forgiven you, is probably the greatest obstacle Christians of this era have the biggest problem with.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Corporal mortification came from the days when capital punishment and torture were the norm. It’s from a mindset of punishment and reward, where suffering is seen as a higher virtue than happiness.

I think to fall back to such a practice is spiritually digressive and some who inflict such punishments on themselves, easily do so to a greater degree on others, including children and animals.

The Church turns a blind eye to the practice while yet condemning extreme forms of corporal mortification such as self-crucifixion, but the message is contradicting.

St Theresa herself opposed this and said that there are enough thorns in life to offer in penance without adding more.

Don’t confuse fasting with corporal mortification, unless the fasting is to the extreme of causing damage to one’s health.

Fasting is a discipline. Self flagellation is a derangement,

Jim
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As a mental health professional so I TOTALLY get your concerns related to physical mortifications.

However, it might be helpful to understand that such practices are VERY Rare and usually practiced by cloistered nuns or monks- and even then- few of them.

It would only be a special personality which would benefit from such mortifications. I’m not saying a more holy person either- just a very specific type of person.

It could be that such practices wan further with time in history but “in and of themselves” when practiced in a certain context they can be practiced by some people.
 
Corporal mortification is something that if done, it should be rare, ritualized, and supervised.

In addition to the risk of bodily harm, you run the risk of pride replacing humility.

There is also the fact that physical injuries sustained during corporal mortification will release endorphin into your brain. If done regularly, you won’t be hurting yourself as penance, you’ll be hurting yourself to get high. Then, you’ll be hurting yourself because you’re addicted.
 
ringil said:
As a mental health professional so I TOTALLY get your concerns related to physical mortifications.

However, it might be helpful to understand that such practices are VERY Rare and usually practiced by cloistered nuns or monks- and even then- few of them.

It would only be a special personality which would benefit from such mortifications. I’m not saying a more holy person either- just a very specific type of person.

It could be that such practices wan further with time in history but “in and of themselves” when practiced in a certain context they can be practiced by some people.
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The problem is, when the practice was more common in convents and monasteries, it produce psychopaths more often than saints.

St Bernadette’s novice mistress was such. She was so hung up on suffering as the only road the heaven, she practice all sorts if inordinate corporal mortification, but she was also a tyrant with her novices, especially Bernadette. Today experts believe she was mentally deranged.

The same is true of a cook at St Theresa’s Convent. She would purposely serve Theresa spoiled food or cut portions, in order to invoke penances on Theresa. The Saint knew, but never said anything, instead offering it up. St Theresa died of consumption possibly caused by poor diet.

You say it’s very rare and as a mental health professional believe it’s acceptable ?

I say, it shouldn’t take place at all. Any personality type that requires this type of mortification would have most mental health professionals concerned.

Faith in Jesus Christ should bring us joy, yet so many devote Catholics live in misery through their own sense of guilt and unworthiness. Jesus never asked this of us. He found us worthy enough to suffer and die for us, and bring us into his risen life in heaven.

We should be filled with joy over the thought.

To many have no concept of the idea that God loves us, regardless of our poor sense of self-worth.

Jim
 
JorduSpeaks said:
Corporal mortification is something that if done, it should be rare, ritualized, and supervised.

.
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What happens when it’s done under the supervision of a mentally deranged spiritual director ?

It has happened in the past.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The problem is, when the practice was more common in convents and monasteries, it produce psychopaths more often than saints.

St Bernadette’s novice mistress was such. She was so hung up on suffering as the only road the heaven, she practice all sorts if inordinate corporal mortification, but she was also a tyrant with her novices, especially Bernadette. Today experts believe she was mentally deranged.

The same is true of a cook at St Theresa’s Convent. She would purposely serve Theresa spoiled food or cut portions, in order to invoke penances on Theresa. The Saint knew, but never said anything, instead offering it up. St Theresa died of consumption possibly caused by poor diet.

You say it’s very rare and as a mental health professional believe it’s acceptable ?

I say, it shouldn’t take place at all. Any personality type that requires this type of mortification would have most mental health professionals concerned.

Faith in Jesus Christ should bring us joy, yet so many devote Catholics live in misery through their own sense of guilt and unworthiness. Jesus never asked this of us. He found us worthy enough to suffer and die for us, and bring us into his risen life in heaven.

We should be filled with joy over the thought.

To many have no concept of the idea that God loves us, regardless of our poor sense of self-worth.

Jim
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Listen- I get you- especially regarding the mental health aspects.

But the Church does allow for it so how do we get around that. I don’t know that the Church even CAN say that physical mortifications shouldn’t be practiced. So, in my view- we have to fit this in somehow. . . .

What are your ideas- something formally stated by the Pope? Can he even do that? I don’t know.

Corporal (Physical) mortifications have been practiced for centuries by Popes and Saints. I don’t think the Church can logistically state that it is wrong.
 
The Church allows it, because it did in the past and trying to tap dance around the issue would look like ever allowing it was an error, which the Church has a hard time with.

Well, not so much a hard time since Pope John Paul II.

Jim
 
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