Scourging Oneself?

[Man_of_War]

Mental discipline is a greater obstacle to over come, where beating yourself will probably cause more problems than solve in the end.

The mortification of getting up in the morning and doing exercise followed by prayer and meditation every day is a great exercise in self-discipline and opportunity for mortification.

Being patient with people who are difficult, is greater.

Being charitable in the face of greed even more difficult.

Most of all, being forgiving of yourself, as Christ has forgiven you, is probably the greatest obstacle Christians of this era have the biggest problem with.

Jim

Thanks Jim,

Your Comment
“Most of all, being forgiving of yourself, as Christ has forgiven you, is probably the greatest obstacle Christians of this era have the biggest problem with.”

Hits it on the head. I’m an Iraq combat veteran and regrets always surface painfully. So I have been very sever on myself in any matter not least of all trying to measure up to what Jesus said that we should be Holy like him. What is it that makes one Holy anyhow? A clear mind is nice when praying, but what makes one Holy? I’m trying to meet some standard that is nebulous since what man on earth is Holy?

I cry for those innocent I saw who died from a car bomb, many children. And with PTSD any goal now seems it must be conqured with force as if to compensate for my lack of being able to save them to prove to myself, if there is some good in the world I must find it. How I mourn them so.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Thanks Jim,

Your Comment
“Most of all, being forgiving of yourself, as Christ has forgiven you, is probably the greatest obstacle Christians of this era have the biggest problem with.”

Hits it on the head. I’m an Iraq combat veteran and regrets always surface painfully. So I have been very sever on myself in any matter not least of all trying to measure up to what Jesus said that we should be Holy like him. What is it that makes one Holy anyhow? A clear mind is nice when praying, but what makes one Holy? I’m trying to meet some standard that is nebulous since what man on earth is Holy?

I cry for those innocent I saw who died from a car bomb, many children. And with PTSD any goal now seems it must be conqured with force as if to compensate for my lack of being able to save them to prove to myself, if there is some good in the world I must find it. How I mourn them so.

Thank you for your service.

What you have to keep in mind is, holiness is not gained by our own doing.

It is through the transforming grace God gives us and this grave is the gift of His Divine Love.

Merely turning to Him in interior prayer, for he dwells within our very being, says to Jesus, I love you and want to love as you love.

So, pray. Learn Christian Meditation and begin to develop a relationship of love with Jesus Christ,

Centered In Christ Jesus.
Jim

 

[Sunbreak]

This would be sick behavior in my opinion.

 

[Man_of_War]

Thank you for your service.

What you have to keep in mind is, holiness is not gained by our own doing.

It is through the transforming grace God gives us and this grave is the gift of His Divine Love.

Merely turning to Him in interior prayer, for he dwells within our very being, says to Jesus, I love you and want to love as you love.

So, pray. Learn Christian Meditation and begin to develop a relationship of love with Jesus Christ,

Centered In Christ Jesus.
Jim

That is good sound advice Jim, and with that in mind, I shall indeed seek out a priest to learn Christian Mediation, my first step to returning to a Catholic Church. This will be done. I Love Jesus, I’m just having trouble finding how to love him properly. I have placed harsh demands on myself to be proper in the presence of new christians. But at home I have been very methodical in my approach and dare say brutal at times. So, it’s time to let go, and try self forgiveness and seek my Lord properly.

Many combat vets are fighting the second war, that’s regrets, anger and even self hatred. Home is never the home we left, and every sudden sound triggers fight or flight mode. Many of us choose to live in seclusion as I do otherwise conversion disorder kicks in in markets or malls. This Christian Mediation sounds like a helpfull option. Thanks very much. - Ken

 

[Dorothy]

Hits it on the head. I’m an Iraq combat veteran and regrets always surface painfully. So I have been very sever on myself in any matter not least of all trying to measure up to what Jesus said that we should be Holy like him. What is it that makes one Holy anyhow? A clear mind is nice when praying, but what makes one Holy? I’m trying to meet some standard that is nebulous since what man on earth is Holy?

I cry for those innocent I saw who died from a car bomb, many children. And with PTSD any goal now seems it must be conqured with force as if to compensate for my lack of being able to save them to prove to myself, if there is some good in the world I must find it. How I mourn them so.

Thank you so much for sharing what you did in the other post and this one also.

I personally have not experienced trauma like you described, but have heard the sharing and the healing testimonies of others who have suffered much in different ways.

Please be assured that Our Lord Jesus Christ was there suffering with the innocents who died, and now they are sharing an ecstatic eternity with Him.

The good in the world is when we, as followers of Christ, bring Him to others.

May we all increase in our love of Him, and offer Him the hurts in our hearts that He desires to heal.

Peace in Jesus and Mary,

Dorothy

 

[LilyPearls]

I’m surpised that so many people are completely and entirely against self-flagellation. Yes, in this day and age it is not common, and yes for most people it would not be spiritually or mentally beneficial. However corporal mortification in general is an extremely important aspect to growth in holiness, even if it’s just something small that we don’t really think of as corporal mortification. I did corporal mortification to break a bad habit and didn’t even realize I was using this method of training myself, even though I would have at the time said I was against “abusing” the body! I wanted to stop swearing so I put an elastic band around my wrist, everytime I swore I gave it a good snap. I learned pretty quickly not to swear, and it hasn’t been much of a problem since. There was a short relapse when I had to be around people who constantly swear and the old habit came back, but I just used the elastic band again and ta da! No more swearing, thanks be to God. Fasting too is obviously important.

But what place does self-flagellation have? I think a lot of people make a bigger deal of it that they need to make simply because of what the public perception is of it. I see fasting as much harsher. You are refusing your body fuel, or at least choosing foods you don’t like. Self-flagellation is not supposed to be done so harshly that it actually wounds you. A carmelite nun friend of mine tells me it is done by some of the nuns in her monastery, but if you ever draw blood you are not allowed to do it anymore. So it’s not actually that hard on your body. People just have this da vinci code perception of it and get all shocked about it. I see it as very useful, because some people have poor health and so are not able to fast, or exercise, or do anything else that is actually hard on the body. But they can hit themselves relatively softly with a knotted rope.

Yes absolutely prudence and a good spiritual director are needed when taking on mortification of the flesh. But just because a certain type of corporal mortification is mocked and scorned by our society and is generally misunderstood by Catholics too, does not mean that a person who does it is crazy. Just that this suits their needs to grow in holiness. To beat their flesh into submission so that they may live with greater charity. Like *all *forms of mortification–interior and exterior–it is a means to an end.

 

[Man_of_War]

Thank you so much for sharing what you did in the other post and this one also.

I personally have not experienced trauma like you described, but have heard the sharing and the healing testimonies of others who have suffered much in different ways.

Please be assured that Our Lord Jesus Christ was there suffering with the innocents who died, and now they are sharing an ecstatic eternity with Him.

The good in the world is when we, as followers of Christ, bring Him to others.

May we all increase in our love of Him, and offer Him the hurts in our hearts that He desires to heal.

Peace in Jesus and Mary,

Dorothy

Thank you Dorothy,
I feel very deep in my heart (no matter what the fundamentalists would say) that when these little ones died they were instantly with Jesus and I dare say that when one of the chldren asked Jesus “where’s mommy?” , my Lord most likely said there she is, commng right behind you. No one can know the bounds of Gods compassion. I’ll stand on that ground.

On another note, my family took in a transgenered kid off the street. I had strong mixed emotions about the move but this seemed like a decent kid. Some months after I became disgusted with a matter I will not discuss, but I intended to throw the kid out. And while I was cleaning the house and listening to christian radio. A woman spoke about how her husband would take in homeless people and give them a meal. Once he brought in a person without even a shirt on and he was placed in her very finest chair. She was fuming at her husband. But she said later that night in bibile study she learned that our Lord is the God of Hospitality.

So, I thought what an interesting coincidence to hear that but my mind was not changed about throwing the kid out. Until that evening while training a new volunteer for the ER at the hospital. I discovered that she used to live down the road from that kid’s house. She mentioned the physical abuse and neglect this kid as a small child experienced. It was a horrific account to include even rape, I was stunned. I think the Lord was tapping on my shoulder.

No sooner did we finish our conversation, a young woman overheard us and mentioned she new this person’s significant other who came from a very bad situation. At that point, I realized God’s compassion and that this young girl who chose to be recognized as a boy did so since maybe thinking as a boy she would not be hurt any more. Her friend is also a girl who prefers to be thought of as a male. Such hurt. I’ve learned many of these kids kill themselves every year, the church needs to do something about this.

Well now I realized that this confused young girl is certainly of the least Christ mentioned who needs to be feed and cared for. So many months later I’ve come to accept her as a member of the family.

She/he is finishing up an associate’s degree and we’re very proud of her well, him. It’s confusing. But Christ understands and his compassion is boundless. This is what I have come to learn. - Ken

 

[Dorothy]

Thank you Dorothy,
I feel very deep in my heart (no matter what the fundamentalists would say) that when these little ones died they were instantly with Jesus and I dare say that when one of the chldren asked Jesus “where’s mommy?” , my Lord most likely said there she is, commng right behind you. No one can know the bounds of Gods compassion. I’ll stand on that ground.

On another note, my family took in a transgenered kid off the street. I had strong mixed emotions about the move but this seemed like a decent kid. Some months after I became disgusted with a matter I will not discuss, but I intended to throw the kid out. And while I was cleaning the house and listening to christian radio. A woman spoke about how her husband would take in homeless people and give them a meal. Once he brought in a person without even a shirt on and he was placed in her very finest chair. She was fuming at her husband. But she said later that night in bibile study she learned that our Lord is the God of Hospitality.

So, I thought what an interesting coincidence to hear that but my mind was not changed about throwing the kid out. Until that evening while training a new volunteer for the ER at the hospital. I discovered that she used to live down the road from that kid’s house. She mentioned the physical abuse and neglect this kid as a small child experienced. It was a horrific account to include even rape, I was stunned. I think the Lord was tapping on my shoulder.

No sooner did we finish our conversation, a young woman overheard us and mentioned she new this person’s significant other who came from a very bad situation. At that point, I realized God’s compassion and that this young girl who chose to be recognized as a boy did so since maybe thinking as a boy she would not be hurt any more. Her friend is also a girl who prefers to be thought of as a male. Such hurt. I’ve learned many of these kids kill themselves every year, the church needs to do something about this.

Well now I realized that this confused young girl is certainly of the least Christ mentioned who needs to be feed and cared for. So many months later I’ve come to accept her as a member of the family.

She/he is finishing up an associate’s degree and we’re very proud of her well, him. It’s confusing. But Christ understands and his compassion is boundless. This is what I have come to learn. - Ken

Those are great acts of love that you described! There are so many hurting people out there who were emotionally wounded in their earlier years. God’s love coming through others heals! When we allow Him to fill us, then He can use us to heal others with His love,.

Love is the greatest power in the world!

And we and you are the Church, the members of the Body of Christ!

 

[beautifuberries]

I’m surpised that so many people are completely and entirely against self-flagellation. Yes, in this day and age it is not common, and yes for most people it would not be spiritually or mentally beneficial. However corporal mortification in general is an extremely important aspect to growth in holiness, even if it’s just something small that we don’t really think of as corporal mortification. I did corporal mortification to break a bad habit and didn’t even realize I was using this method of training myself, even though I would have at the time said I was against “abusing” the body! I wanted to stop swearing so I put an elastic band around my wrist, everytime I swore I gave it a good snap. I learned pretty quickly not to swear, and it hasn’t been much of a problem since. There was a short relapse when I had to be around people who constantly swear and the old habit came back, but I just used the elastic band again and ta da! No more swearing, thanks be to God. Fasting too is obviously important.

But what place does self-flagellation have? I think a lot of people make a bigger deal of it that they need to make simply because of what the public perception is of it. I see fasting as much harsher. You are refusing your body fuel, or at least choosing foods you don’t like. Self-flagellation is not supposed to be done so harshly that it actually wounds you. A carmelite nun friend of mine tells me it is done by some of the nuns in her monastery, but if you ever draw blood you are not allowed to do it anymore. So it’s not actually that hard on your body. People just have this da vinci code perception of it and get all shocked about it. I see it as very useful, because some people have poor health and so are not able to fast, or exercise, or do anything else that is actually hard on the body. But they can hit themselves relatively softly with a knotted rope.

Yes absolutely prudence and a good spiritual director are needed when taking on mortification of the flesh. But just because a certain type of corporal mortification is mocked and scorned by our society and is generally misunderstood by Catholics too, does not mean that a person who does it is crazy. Just that this suits their needs to grow in holiness. To beat their flesh into submission so that they may live with greater charity. Like *all *forms of mortification–interior and exterior–it is a means to an end.

Agreed.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

However corporal mortification in general is an extremely important aspect to growth in holiness, even if it’s just something small that we don’t really think of as corporal mortification.

I think you have corporal mortification and general mortification confused.

The former is causing self inflicted pain to the flesh as a form of mortification.

The later, is offering the sufferings endured in life as a sacrifice.

Jim

 

[LilyPearls]

I think you have corporal mortification and general mortification confused.

The former is causing self inflicted pain to the flesh as a form of mortification.

The later, is offering the sufferings endured in life as a sacrifice.

Jim

Nope, I don’t have them confused. By saying “corporal mortification in general” I was referring to all the various forms of mortification of the flesh, whether it be the discipline, the cilice, hairshirts, fasting, praying with arms outstretched, and whatever other form of physical discipline a person could think of. I was trying to say that it is important to use both interior and exterior (corporal) mortifications to grow in holiness and charity.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Nope, I don’t have them confused. By saying “corporal mortification in general” I was referring to all the various forms of mortification of the flesh, whether it be the discipline, the cilice, hairshirts, fasting, praying with arms outstretched, and whatever other form of physical discipline a person could think of. I was trying to say that it is important to use both interior and exterior (corporal) mortifications to grow in holiness and charity.

How about laying on glass or self-crucifixion ?

The entire idea of causing physical pain through various physical acts of mortification of the flesh is mentally disordered, no different than a person who engages in self-cutting.

I’m not talking about fasting or giving up TV here, but corporal mortification causing physical pain of the body. It’s deranged mental behavior.

Jim

 

[LilyPearls]

How about laying on glass or self-crucifixion ?

The entire idea of causing physical pain through various physical acts of mortification of the flesh is mentally disordered, no different than a person who engages in self-cutting.

I’m not talking about fasting or giving up TV here, but corporal mortification causing physical pain of the body. It’s deranged mental behavior.

Jim

I completely agree that self-crucifixion is deranged. Corporal mortification is never, ever, supposed to injure health or cause any real physical harm. It is more of a physical annoyance. A hairshirt, for example, doesnt actually hurt the wearer. It’s more like wearing really scratchy wool. Very annoying, yes, but not a harm to health. Self-flagellation is supposed to cause physical affects closer to wearing a hairshirt than self-crucifixion.

Sure there are some people who go really far with it and draw blood, sometimes a lot of blood, and some do it all gruesome like in public! The church condemns this and I agree that those who choose to do this could use both a solid spiritual director and perhaps therapy. Monastics who wear hairshirts and use the discipline (self-flagellation) and fast much of the year are still able to do physical labour everyday because these practices do not cause that much physical harm at all.

Take st francis of assisi. Or was it st benedict? Oh goodness I cant remember. Whoever it was was plagued by lust and to protect his purity would throw hinself into snow and into thornbushes. Yes throwing yourself into thorns will hurt your body mildly and temporarily, and snow isnt all that comfortable either. But is it better to die with a body that has been put through a little mild discipline yet you did not sin, or to die with a body that has known only comfort but you sinned against our Lord who is nothing but good to us?

 

[ringil]

I completely agree that self-crucifixion is deranged. Corporal mortification is never, ever, supposed to injure health or cause any real physical harm. It is more of a physical annoyance. A hairshirt, for example, doesnt actually hurt the wearer. It’s more like wearing really scratchy wool. Very annoying, yes, but not a harm to health. Self-flagellation is supposed to cause physical affects closer to wearing a hairshirt than self-crucifixion.

Sure there are some people who go really far with it and draw blood, sometimes a lot of blood, and some do it all gruesome like in public! The church condemns this and I agree that those who choose to do this could use both a solid spiritual director and perhaps therapy. Monastics who wear hairshirts and use the discipline (self-flagellation) and fast much of the year are still able to do physical labour everyday because these practices do not cause that much physical harm at all.

Take st francis of assisi. Or was it st benedict? Oh goodness I cant remember. Whoever it was was plagued by lust and to protect his purity would throw hinself into snow and into thornbushes. Yes throwing yourself into thorns will hurt your body mildly and temporarily, and snow isnt all that comfortable either. But is it better to die with a body that has been put through a little mild discipline yet you did not sin, or to die with a body that has known only comfort but you sinned against our Lord who is nothing but good to us?

The more severe practices by the saints were practiced at a different time with little understanding of the human psyche. This does not make what they did wrong but it must be placed in context.

Throwing yourself into a rosebush causes pretty significant damage I would think

in general corporal punishment should not be undertaken today. I do believe that for the rare personality in a certain setting it can be appropriate.

Jim makes an excellent point about endorphins being released as a result of pain to the body thus muddying the waters of what one calls penance.

But I have to think it has some kind of place. I cannot wrap my head around an idea that all corporal punishment is inherently wrong, this is despite myself being a mental health practitioner.

For instance if I had a client who did this as part of their religion and it didn’t seem to be negatively affecting them it would be unwise for me to tell them not too. I would probe the he# out of the issue though!

The same would hold true for muslims who do the same once a year.
Or practitioners of voodoo or sanataria who sacrifice chickens.
Or even those with sex practices that the average person would find pretty odd to say the least.

 

[LilyPearls]

The more severe practices by the saints were practiced at a different time with little understanding of the human psyche.

Jim makes an excellent point about endorphins being released as a result of pain to the body thus muddying the waters of what one calls penance.

The more severe penances by the saints are still practiced in the modern age. Padre Pio, Blessed Mother Theresa, St Pope John Paul II, and st Therese of Lisieux are four very famous modern saints who used severe (but within the allowances of the teachings of the church) corporal mortification. They all fasted, some used vigils, the cilice, the discipline, etc. They are not used for the purpose of getting a mental high, though I see Jim’s point there. That is a danger, and abuse of mortification is something spiritual directors watch for. But just because it can be abused doesnt mean it always is and therefor is only for the mentally unstable.

To me it seems like it is something that a person might be called to take on when they reach a certain point in their spiritual life. When a person is just a beginner they are to work on putting a stop to mortal sin in their life, then venial sin. At this point in the spiritual life yes waiting in line can be a mortification because the person still has to perfect their virtue of patience. All the daily trials that come fron life are sufficient to mortify a person at this stage. But when God grants the person more perfect virtues, daily struggles are much easier. Their spiritual muscles are stronger and they dont fall into deliberate venial sin all that often anymore. But, as it seems to be from the examole of the lives of the saints, this holy of a person terrifies the devil very much and so the evil one will inflict the person with awful temptations. God himself will allow the person to go through the dark night to perfect his virtues and will allow temptations in order to bring more glory to Himself by the daint blessing Him and choosing life over death when presented with unimaginable temptations. But for a person at this level in the spiritual life, where daily trials arent as difficult to handle as they used to be, they need another form of mortification to help them keep their flesh and will in line. This is when corporal mortification is a great help to fight against our evil inclinations.

 

[Bookcat]

From an Opus Dei Priest.

holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/guests/michaelgiesler/corporalmortification.asp

As others have noted – that particular example of “corporal mortification” is only one example (and one that one that a good confessor/director ought to be involved if one thought of such). There are various ways of corporal mortification other than the discipline…for example fasting can be such…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

LilyPearls;

The more severe penances by the saints are still practiced in the modern age. Padre Pio, Blessed Mother Theresa, St Pope John Paul II, and st Therese of Lisieux are four very famous modern saints who used severe (but within the allowances of the teachings of the church) corporal mortification.

Other than Padre Pio, none of the others used self-flagellation or other extreme methods of corporal mortification of the flesh.

Padre Pio, I’m not sure about. However, he also had a bad temper and other issues that were concerning for people, even during his time.

Mother Teresa, offered her penance in the work she did. She did not use corporal mortification from anything I’ve read about her.

St Theresa of Lisieux opposed self flagellation and other forms of corporal mortification. She told her sisters, that there enough thorns in life to offer in sacrifice without adding more.

Pope John Paul II, his house keeper said she heard what “she thought” sounded like self-flagellation coming from his room, but it was never proven that this is what he was doing behind his closed door. The Pope did in fact exercise every morning and this is probably what the maid heard. Mostly people who embrace self-flagellation ran with the story, but again there are those who were close to the Pope who deny he practiced this.

Again, don’t confuse fasting and offering the sacrifices of life, with self inflicted corporal mortification of the flesh.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

LilyPearls;

St Theresa of Lisieux opposed self flagellation and other forms of corporal mortification. She told her sisters, that there enough thorns in life to offer in sacrifice without adding

Quote: “Even St. Thérèse of Lisieux, famous for her “little way” and her love for God and others, fasted and used the discipline vigorously” -from above article.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Quote: “Even St. Thérèse of Lisieux, famous for her “little way” and her love for God and others, fasted and used the discipline vigorously” -from above article.

And exaggerated by the author of the article who’s trying to defend corporal mortification such as self-flagellation and wearing of the cilice.

She fasted and offered daily mortification’s, but the one’s that came into her life daily, which were often in her convent. She did not use self inflicted pain of the flesh, such as flagellation or cilice, but in fact opposed these methods.

Being of the same order as St Theresa of Lisieux, our OCDS group had many discussions with the OCD Superior about St Threesa and this particular issue.

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

Pope John Paul II, his house keeper said she heard what “she thought” sounded like self-flagellation coming from his room, but it was never proven that this is what he was doing behind his closed door. The Pope did in fact exercise every morning and this is probably what the maid heard. Mostly people who embrace self-flagellation ran with the story, but again there are those who were close to the Pope who deny he practiced this.

The better term is “the discipline” not “self flagellation”.

And yes he used it. wordonfire.org/Written-Word/articles-commentaries/March-2010/John-Paul-II-and-Taking-the-Discipline.aspx

ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/stunner_pope_practiced_self-mortification

christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/februaryweb-only/16-11.0.html?start=2