Scriptural evidence for Once-saved-always-saved?

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Seriously though, the logic implies that if God MAKES us to sit in heavenly places with Christ, how is it that you can overpower God? That does not appear to be sound logic to me.

Hebrews 6:4-6 states:
"For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the Holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the power of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are re-crucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.

So it is possible to reject God’s grace.

That’s an improper translation. The correct translation is “IF they should fall away.” This is to illustrate a hypothetical scenario, which is then declared IMPOSSIBLE to achieve. Why is it impossible? Because, the writer of Hebrews declares that IF you could fall away from the faith, then to return to the faith would put Christ to an open shame by placing Him once more on the cross.

Therefore, Catholic teaching on this subject is faulty because it claims that you CAN return to the faith, and that in doing so, you “re-crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame.”

TheWhoFreak:

Keep in mind that all the souls in Hell chose to go to Hell. God sends no one to Hell on His own, we choose it by our actions.

I agree completely.

TheWhoFreak:

James 2:24 states that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

Actually, James states that we are justified by faith ACCOMPANIED by works, so that faith is not alone. It’s like saying “I drive my car to work”, but claiming that there is no engine under the hood. The engine is part of the car, just as works is a part of faith. Indeed, it is the engine of faith.

 

[wmscott]

Well, I can understand why it is that you believe that OSAS cheapens Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, because you also believe that OSAS means that you don’t have to follow God’s commandments. But that is false.

Actually, Catholics already do buy into this, because Catholics claim that Christians must follow the commandments of God. The difference is that Protestants understand that false professors will TRY to follow God’s commandments, but in the end they will not fool Jesus, because He will tell them to “begone, you workers of iniquity.”

The difference is that Catholics maintain that you can lose your salvation, and Protestants maintain that if you walk away from the faith that the Bible tells us that it just goes to prove that “they went out [from us], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” (1 John 2:19)

Exactly. That is why Protestants and Catholics are really not that far apart in their understanding. The difference is that Catholics emphasize that you can lose your salvation, which is a statement that Protestants consider heresy.

Some food for thought, taken from the library here at catholic.com

Please do not gloss over this, I challenge you to read it in its entrity so that you may gain a more proper view of what the Catholic Church teaches. LINK

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)."

Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

 

[Shlomo]

No scripture says it is enogh.

If Kingom of God is a place full of people who are just claiming their fath but are impure, then in this Kingdom should be police, prisons etc.

By the way, in this world many easy life seekers are to be found exactly in prisons.

Salvation is actually entering the Kingdom, and its biblical symbol is entering the Promised Land. Remember that just a few actually entered it while scores got out of Egypt.

Follow the narrow path:
sites.google.com/site/vinishsky/the-importance-of-being-perfect

Love,
Shlomo

 

[TheWhoFreak]

1. 
   *]There is no such thing as “free” will.
   *]Jesus, because He is God, would not have said “no” to the Predestinated Will of God. As God, He was working out the plan of His Father.

1. 
   So you say that all things that I do, including sin, are done by me because God has commanded me to do so? We have a totally free will. If God controlled us in any sort of way, then Jesus’ work on the Cross was in vain. We have to be free to accept Christ, it has to be a COMPLETELY FREE CHOICE. If God influenced (helpful push in the right direction, if you catch my drift) our decision to accept Christ, then we do not truly have Christ, because our choice would not totally be our own.
   
   I agree that Jesus would not have said no to God, because if He did, then Jesus would sin and thus His death on the Cross would be rendered useless. However, I say that Jesus could have said no if He wanted to. Jesus was fully human, and fully God, and had 2 natures, human and Divine. As a human, God gave Jesus free will. Jesus had to freely accept His death on the Cross. If he was not completely free to make this choice, then He would not be Saviour because his choice to die for us was not completely His own.
   

   That’s an improper translation. The correct translation is “IF they should fall away.” This is to illustrate a hypothetical scenario, which is then declared IMPOSSIBLE to achieve. Why is it impossible? Because, the writer of Hebrews declares that IF you could fall away from the faith, then to return to the faith would put Christ to an open shame by placing Him once more on the cross.
   
   Therefore, Catholic teaching on this subject is faulty because it claims that you CAN return to the faith, and that in doing so, you “re-crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame.”

   Show me this “correct translation” you speak of. On the CAF it is required to cite sources, please do so. As well, cite to me where it says that the scenario in Hebrews 6 is impossible.
   

   I agree completely.

   Oh my gosh, we agreed on something! I haven’t seen this happen in…(this is sarcasm people)
   

   Actually, James states that we are justified by faith ACCOMPANIED by works, so that faith is not alone. It’s like saying “I drive my car to work”, but claiming that there is no engine under the hood. The engine is part of the car, just as works is a part of faith. Indeed, it is the engine of faith.

   Yet again, what translation is this from? You’re right on with your car analogy, but I don’t think we see it the same way. Using the same car analogy, the car is dead without the engine. So also is faith without works dead. (James 2:26)

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

If we are “in a state of grace” it is only because God MADE us to sit in that grace.

That takes free will out of the equation.

Yes, it does. But only the “free” part, not your will.

TheWhoFreak:

God picks and chooses who He wants to give grace to. We are free to reject His grace at any point, because God is a loving God who gave us the free will to do what we want.

God gave us a will that is able to be exercised within the domain that we live. Before he regenerates us, we are captured by the Devil and serve him, therefore, our wills are NOT free. We have a will, but it is subject to the Devil’s whims. Ephesians 2 states that clearly we serve him.

But then a wondrous thing occurs, and we are saved by God, taken out of the domain of the Devil, and now we live in God’s glorious kingdom. Our wills still are not free, but they are oriented toward Him, instead of toward the Devil.

. . . sin remains lurking and we must avail ourselves of the grace God provides to withstand its temptations (1 Cor 10:13).

PEPCIS:

Of course we must. No one is saying that we shouldn’t. But availing ourselves of God’s grace, as you point out in 1 Cor. 10:13, is a grace that God gives to all believers that prevents them from “disinheriting” the kingdom of God. Paul says that God will give us grace so that even when we are tempted, He “. . .will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

TheWhoFreak:

You aren’t taking into account the possibility of giving in to temptation.

Of course I am. It’s exactly what I DID say.

TheWhoFreak:

Also, how does 1 Cor. 10:13 mention any sort of “grace”? Unless you are equating grace with the way of escape provided by God, I fail to see any grace mentioned in the passage.

What is grace, if not the beneficence of God? Any GOOD thing comes from above, and issues from God’s throne. If God provides us a way of escape, then that is clearly God’s wonderful grace. I’m not sure why you don’t see that?

TheWhoFreak:

No offese, but are you a person who believes that the 1611 KJV A.V. is the only Bible we should use (aka KJV-onlyist)?

I believe that the KJV represents one of the best translations available in the English language. I prefer it above most others.

 

[PEPCIS]

Hello Tom,

hope you’re having a great day!
"PEPCIS:

Seriously though, the logic implies that if God MAKES us to sit in heavenly places with Christ, how is it that you can overpower God? That does not appear to be sound logic to me.

How does this sound from a logical basis:

God knows exactly who will be with Him in Heaven for all Eternity. There are not surprises to God.

True. But this is not the basis of His predestinated Will. The basis of His predestination is found in His determination. In other words, imagine that God cannot see into the future (Yes, I know that He can, but just play along for a moment). So, if God could not see into the future, could He still predetermine what will and will not happen?

The obvious answer is “yes.” God’s predetermination is NOT dependent upon His foreknowledge. That is an important distinction to make, and I’m not sure that very many people can even grasp that.

tqualey:

We can not work our way to heaven in the sense that actions we do will amout ot having our ‘ticket punched’ and we get through the Pearly Gates. God gives us the Grace to want His Grace and then He gives us the Grace to carry out His Divine Will.

I really like the way that you said that.

tqualey:

To love our neighbor means we do things - and James 2 understands this when he addressed clothing the naked, feeding the hungry and visiting the imprisoned. Notice we can clothe someone by saying, “Have a nice day.” We must do something (WORKS! )

I agree. We MUST do something. But do you believe that the wicked will do things, or even have a desire to do anything righteous for God? Paul tells us that the gospel is FOOLISHNESS to those who are perishing. I don’t see anyone except the righteous performing good works.

 

[TheWhoFreak]

Yes, it does. But only the “free” part, not your will.

So we are forced to accept God’s grace? I don’t want God to force His grace on me. I want God to be a loving and just God who gives grace to those whom He wills. I want the option of rejecting God’s grace as well. I’m not saying I would use that option, even so, our choice to follow God has to be totally free.

God gave us a will that is able to be exercised within the domain that we live. Before he regenerates us, we are captured by the Devil and serve him, therefore, our wills are NOT free. We have a will, but it is subject to the Devil’s whims. Ephesians 2 states that clearly we serve him.

But then a wondrous thing occurs, and we are saved by God, taken out of the domain of the Devil, and now we live in God’s glorious kingdom. Our wills still are not free, but they are oriented toward Him, instead of toward the Devil.

Our wills are totally free. Why do you not want to believe that? As I said earlier, all those in Hell chose it. You agreed. Yet you contradict yourself by saying that we don’t have a totally free choice in our actions! If those in Hell didn’t have a totally free choice, then God would not be a just God, because if He knew that those people’s choices weren’t their own, how could they be judged for it?

Therefore, how can places like Heaven or Hell exist if we don’t have free will? Hell would have no use because those there would not be completely to blame for their actions. Heaven would be likewise useless, because all those there would not have made a free choice to accept God’s grace.

Ephesians 2:8 describes grace as a “gift of God”. Like all gifts, we can accept it or tell the person who gives it that we don’t want it. Or we can take it, become bored with it after a while, or not want it anymore, and return it to the store. Using the gift scenario, you see God giving grace as someone who gives us a gift, but then duct tapes the gift to our body, thus rendering it impossible to get off. That is not a just God, and certainly not how God gives us grace.

What is grace, if not the beneficence of God? Any GOOD thing comes from above, and issues from God’s throne. If God provides us a way of escape, then that is clearly God’s wonderful grace. I’m not sure why you don’t see that?

Nevermind, you’re right on that point. Dunno what I was thinking earlier.

I believe that the KJV represents one of the best translations available in the English language. I prefer it above most others.

To each his own, I guess. I personally can’t stand all the thee’s, thou’s, dost’s, and other funky word order and vocabulary it uses. My favorite translation is probably the ESV. If only it came with the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals. (But that’s another topic)

 

[TheWhoFreak]

I agree. We MUST do something. But do you believe that the wicked will do things, or even have a desire to do anything righteous for God? Paul tells us that the gospel is FOOLISHNESS to those who are perishing. I don’t see anyone except the righteous performing good works.

Not all non-Christians are bad people. A work is not deemed good or bad by the person performing it, it has to do with the work itself. For example, lets say that Marylin Manson, a priest in the church of Satan and an anti-Christian (these are both true), gave 1,000,000$ to charity. Granted, there’s a slim chance of that happening, but this is a hypothetical scenario. Would that be a good work or not? What if an athiest went and volunteered at a soup kitchen 3 days out of the week, because he thinks it is the right thing to do, is that a good work?
In my personal philosophy on people, I see the Yin-Yang sign. I know that even though all humans are sinful, we both have good and bad inside of us. What makes us “bad” or “good” is the choices we make. Heck, the Bible says we’ll be judged according to our choices.

 

[PEPCIS]

Some food for thought, taken from the library here at catholic.com

Please do not gloss over this, I challenge you to read it in its entrity so that you may gain a more proper view of what the Catholic Church teaches. LINK

Hi WM. Thanks for the link. I will definitely read this in full. I have only had time to skim this, but I must be honest and tell you that I’ve read many similar studies.

Most striking is this quote from that link:

[SIGN]“For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set. From that point on there is nothing you can do, no sin you can commit, no matter how heinous, that will forfeit your salvation. You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to.”[/SIGN]

It’s sad that many, many Protestants actually believe this. This is a tragic error that says it doesn’t matter how you live your life once you become a Christian. I can understand how it is that Catholics form the opinion they do of Protestants.

One thing that BOTH of us need to be careful of is allowing our minds to fall into the trap that we must hate Catholics and their doctrines, or vice versa. The primary point of confession between Catholics and Protestants is Jesus Christ is Lord and God.

Now, because of some very real differences that we have in doctrine, I would not work side by side in the same mission. However, I would never do anything to stop it.

wmscott:

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death.

I don’t believe that. I believe that this is a misapplication and misunderstanding of Scripture. When Jesus says “He who endures to the end will be saved”, He is not saying who it will be that will endure to the end. He does say, through Paul, that there are no works that we can do to enter into the kingdom of God, so Christ is clearly not saying that those who endure in good works will be saved.

Good works are something that God performs THROUGH us, and gives us evidence of our salvation. It is not something that we produce, because “there is none good, no not one.”

 

[BirdandBee]

PEPCIS, I find your posts in this thread intelligent, thoughtful, and respectful. I don’t have the time or inclination to read through all the responses here, so I think I will just address yours.

I don’t believe that. I believe that this is a misapplication and misunderstanding of Scripture. When Jesus says “He who endures to the end will be saved”, He is not saying who it will be that will endure to the end. He does say, through Paul, that there are no works that we can do to enter into the kingdom of God, so Christ is clearly not saying that those who endure in good works will be saved

I think you’re performing a similar trick here that many Arminians use (for reference, I tend to view things from a more Thomist perspective, myself). You are rearranging Christ’s words into a formula more consistent with your doctrine: “He who is saved will endure to the end.” Christ is placing the salvation event after the period of endurance. Thus, one would logically conclude that enduring to the end precedes salvation.

Good works are something that God performs THROUGH us, and gives us evidence of our salvation. It is not something that we produce, because “there is none good, no not one.”

I have a small essay on this, but small though it is, it is still too long for this thread, I think, because it is a tangent. I will attempt to summarize it, though I can post the whole thing if someone wants.

Simply put, the Roman Catholic view is that good works are definitely something God performs through us, and not a product of our own righteousness, because apart from God there is no righteousness. But it is also true that the problem of original sin is intimately tied up in our will, for it is a weakness of will (among other things) that blinds us and predisposes us to sin. God simply requires that we cooperate with his grace, allowing good works to flow through us. It is on the basis of this cooperation we are judged. Since this cooperation is intimately linked to faith, I seen no conflict with Paul’s writings, or any others to be found in the Bible.

Our initial justification is based on our initial acceptance of Jesus Christ, but faith is more than just intellectual assent. It is a devotion to its object. Thus, it is not good enough to say we believe in Jesus Christ as our savior. We must also believe in what he taught. We must have faith in what he taught. And that involves doing his will our whole life after. If we never start to change, an outside observer can either say we fell away, or we never truly had faith in the first place. I think a close reading of the Bible in general, and James in particular, will indicate that the second assumption has its flaws. If nothing else, it nixes the idea of assurance of salvation because it introduces the possibility of false assurance. Someone apparently genuine can be wrong about his salvation. And to differentiate betwen the two, we are asked to rely on our feelings, and pick out the assurance of the Holy Spirit from the false assurance of Satan. This is hardly the concrete, cut-and-dry matter proponents of OSAS make it out to be. Personally, I find the Catholic route far more comforting.

But ultimately, whether we are justified by faithful cooperation in love or a faith that works is purely semantic. We are justified by faith, and works are a part of faith. There is really no good reason to argue about whether works precede from or are involved in justification, because the two are inextricably tied in either case. Jesus Christ made no such distinction. Why do we feel the need?

Truly, this only becomes an issue when you start delving into predestination, and boy, is that a headache. There are other threads for that, though, so I will end here. I hope this is helpful, and I apologize if I merely repeated what someone else has said before and I missed. The danger of long threads, I’m afraid.

 

[PEPCIS]

So you say that all things that I do, including sin, are done by me because God has commanded me to do so?

[/quote]

No, of course not. God does not do evil, and he does not cause others to do evil. Just because you don’t have a will that is free does not mean that you don’t have a will.

TheWhoFreak:

We have a totally free will.

As I said above, there is no such thing as a will that is free. It is an illusion that man created because he believes he is master of his own destiny. Yet it is clear that millions and billions of those who have said that they are masters of their own destiny are on their way to hell. So much for being “master” of your destiny.

TheWhoFreak:

If God controlled us in any sort of way, then Jesus’ work on the Cross was in vain.

You really have to realign your thinking on this point. God controlls so many events in our lives. How many times have you come through a close scrape with death, or accident, or some other event, and you looked back and attributed your safety to God’s provident hand in your life?

There are stories of men and women who tried to get to work at the World Trade Center on 911, but they could not because some “emergency” came up, or their transportation crapped out on them, or some other event came into their lives preventing them from going to work. Nearly ALL of these people state that they believe God intervened in their lives. Not all of these people are Christian, yet they clearly felt God’s hand controlling events in such a way as to keep them from harm that day.

If God could do such a minor thing as this, do you suppose He could also bring about the salvation of the elect?

TheWhoFreak:

We have to be free to accept Christ, it has to be a COMPLETELY FREE CHOICE.

Here’s the sad part: if left to his own free will, man would NEVER choose God. Paul tells us that to those men who are perishing, that the message of the gospel is nothing but foolishness to them. (1 Corinthians 1:18) Jesus tells us that everyone stands before God “condemned already”. (John 3:18)

TheWhoFreak:

If God influenced (helpful push in the right direction, if you catch my drift) our decision to accept Christ, then we do not truly have Christ, because our choice would not totally be our own.

I’m not sure I understand that logic. How is it that we would not be saved if God saved us? Let me give you an example of what you just said, but with a different conclusion:

Suppose my son wants to go outside to play, but I see that he is holding his privates because he needs to go to the bathroom. Of course, my son has “free” will, and I could allow him to go outside and play, but because I am his father, and I recognize that the BEST thing for him at that moment would be to get him to the bathroom, I will FORCE him to go to pee first!

Or, suppose that I am holding my son’s hand as we walk along the street. He continually pulls against my hand, wanting to dart here and there, but I am concerned for his safety, so I will continue to hold his hand and guide him.

In both cases, I am not doing damage to his precious will, but guiding it in such a way as he will be most happy. God does the same thing to us, the elect. He guides us and protects us from ourselves and our actions. Yet because He guides the elect, we can be assured that their salvation is complete.

TheWhoFreak:

I agree that Jesus would not have said no to God, because if He did, then Jesus would sin and thus His death on the Cross would be rendered useless. However, I say that Jesus could have said no if He wanted to. Jesus was fully human, and fully God, and had 2 natures, human and Divine. As a human, God gave Jesus free will. Jesus had to freely accept His death on the Cross. If he was not completely free to make this choice, then He would not be Saviour because his choice to die for us was not completely His own.

I have no problem with this, because we are talking about Jesus, who is God. We aren’t talking about men. God’s will is completely free, and so His human side must have been completely free as well.

 

[wmscott]

I am responding in bold red, not to yell but for ease of reading

Hi WM. Thanks for the link. I will definitely read this in full. I have only had time to skim this, but I must be honest and tell you that I’ve read many similar studies. I really think that you will when you have the time. After, if you like you can PM me with your thoughts.

Most striking is this quote from that link:

[SIGN]“For many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals it makes no difference—as far as salvation is concerned—how you live or end your life. You can heed the altar call at church, announce that you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, and, so long as you really believe it, you’re set. From that point on there is nothing you can do, no sin you can commit, no matter how heinous, that will forfeit your salvation. You can’t undo your salvation, even if you wanted to.”[/SIGN]

It’s sad that many, many Protestants actually believe this. This is a tragic error that says it doesn’t matter how you live your life once you become a Christian. I can understand how it is that Catholics form the opinion they do of Protestants. **Hence the problem with the OSAS issue. However, I used to be one of those folks that believed that way. I converted to Catholicism after many years as a Southern Baptist and several years living in a Spiritual wasteland. **
One thing that BOTH of us need to be careful of is allowing our minds to fall into the trap that we must hate Catholics and their doctrines, or vice versa. The primary point of confession between Catholics and Protestants is Jesus Christ is Lord and God.**I do not have a problem with this. **
Now, because of some very real differences that we have in doctrine, I would not work side by side in the same mission. However, I would never do anything to stop it. **Sad, very sad, Christians can work together. If it meant bringing a lost soul to God, I would naturally want to see them become Catholic, however if it meant becoming Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, or one of the other, mainstream Protestant (Trinitarian denominations), I would not hinder them in any way but encourage them to explore them all first. So long as they stepped into the Christian faith. **

I don’t believe that. I believe that this is a misapplication and misunderstanding of Scripture. When Jesus says “He who endures to the end will be saved”, He is not saying who it will be that will endure to the end. He does say, through Paul, that there are no works that we can do to enter into the kingdom of God, so Christ is clearly not saying that those who endure in good works will be saved. **Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)." I did not say anything about works. So are you saying that if a person dies in mortal sin that he still has grace and is bound for Heaven? Matt 7:21, In context “The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).”
Also in context, this verse from Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
Paul, writing at the end of his life, “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day” (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, “I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me” (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: “I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course. **

Good works are something that God performs THROUGH us, and gives us evidence of our salvation. It is not something that we produce, because “there is none good, no not one.”

Works is to long to reply to in this one response.

To read more on salvation try this link, it exlains in much more detail of what i was trying to say.

This link also will provide you more info

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

That’s an improper translation. The correct translation is "IF

they should fall away." This is to illustrate a hypothetical scenario, which is then declared IMPOSSIBLE to achieve. Why is it impossible? Because, the writer of Hebrews declares that IF you could fall away from the faith, then to return to the faith would put Christ to an open shame by placing Him once more on the cross.

Therefore, Catholic teaching on this subject is faulty because it claims that you CAN return to the faith, and that in doing so, you “re-crucify the Son of God afresh and put Him to an open shame.”

Show me this “correct translation” you speak of. On the CAF it is required to cite sources, please do so. As well, cite to me where it says that the scenario in Hebrews 6 is impossible.

Well, to begin with, you can see in the Catholic Online Bible that the translation states: “it is impossible for [those who have fallen away from the faith] to be brought to the freshness of repentance a second time, since they are crucifying the Son of God again for themselves, and making a public exhibition of him” (Hebrews 6:6)

I’m not sure how Catholics then go on to state the opposite, and claim that you can be brought back to the freshness of repentance again, and re-crucify the Son of God again and make a public exhibition of Him. Makes no sense to me.

TheWhoFreak:

You’re right on with your car analogy, but I don’t think we see it the same way. Using the same car analogy, the car is dead without the engine. So also is faith without works dead. (James 2:26)

We agree. We do see it the same way!

 

[wmscott]

Well, to begin with, you can see in the Catholic Online Bible that the translation states: “it is impossible for [those who have fallen away from the faith] to be brought to the freshness of repentance a second time, since they are crucifying the Son of God again for themselves, and making a public exhibition of him” (Hebrews 6:6)

I’m not sure how Catholics then go on to state the opposite, and claim that you can be brought back to the freshness of repentance again, and re-crucify the Son of God again and make a public exhibition of Him. Makes no sense to me.

We agree. We do see it the same way!

PEPCIS, lets not take one verse and make a statement out of context. The following is verses 4 - 9 in Hebrews 6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

4 “It is impossible”… The meaning is, that it is impossible for such as have fallen after baptism, to be again baptized; and very hard for such as have apostatized from the faith, after having received many graces, to return again to the happy state from which they fell.

6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. 7 For the earth that drinketh in the rain which cometh often upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is tilled, receiveth blessing from God. 8 But that which bringeth forth thorns and briers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt. 9 But, my dearly beloved, we trust better things of you, and nearer to salvation; though we speak thus. 10 For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shewn in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints.

In Ver. 4 For it is impossible, This is an obscure place, differently expounded, which shows how rash it is for the ignorant to pretend to understand the holy Scriptures. Many understand these words, it is impossible, of the sacrament of penance, or of returning to God by a profitable repentance, especially after such heinous sins as an apostacy from the true faith. But then we must take the word impossible, to imply no more than a thing that is very hard to be done, or that seldom happens, as when it is said, (Matthew 19:26) that it is impossible for rich men to be saved: and (Luke 17:1) it is impossible that scandals should not come. For it is certain that it is never impossible for the greatest sinners to repent by the assistance which God offers them, who has also left the power to his ministers to forgive in his name the greatest sins. (Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary).

I hope this helps

 

[PEPCIS]

Some food for thought, taken from the library here at catholic.com

Please do not gloss over this, I challenge you to read it in its entrity so that you may gain a more proper view of what the Catholic Church teaches. LINK

Ok, I’ve had a chance to read some more, and would appreciate your comments here. I believe that “assurance of salvation” is in keeping with the thread’s topic.

Here is a quote from that article:

[SIGN]“Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22)”[/SIGN]

Now, to me this is strange, because Catholics typically approach this verse as if we could individualize it. Yet it is clear that the context is to the NATION of Israel being cut off for lack of faith. This speaks to how a nation (or a body of believers) can drift over years.

For example, a church can be founded in 1800 by a body of believers who are 100% totally believers in Christ. But because they failed to teach their children, and because they failed to guard the gates of the church, allowing non-believers into her as members, over the years the spiritual demographics of the church has changed so she is no longer a believing body.

We can see this with certain liberal branches of Protestantism, such as the PCUSA, where they are largely filled with unbelieving members who accept all manner of evil into their body.

So, when Paul speaks of a “severity toward those who have fallen” he is speaking to the Nation of Israel who has fallen away from belief because they had failed to teach their children the very first commandment - to love God with all your heart.

This verse does NOT teach that you can lose your salvation.

 

[PEPCIS]

Some food for thought, taken from the library here at catholic.com

Please do not gloss over this, I challenge you to read it in its entrity so that you may gain a more proper view of what the Catholic Church teaches. LINK

Ok, I’m back to consider some more of that article. Here is another quote:

[SIGN]“Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.”[/SIGN]

Here is the problem with this paragraph: Yes, sometimes Fundamentalists/Protestants do portray salvation as if OSAS. But it is important to remember that although Catholics get SOME of their doctrine concerning salvation correct, it does not mean that they get ALL of it correct. The same goes for Protestants.

In this particular instance, the place where both some Protestants and some Catholics get it wrong is in not realizing that some people make false professions concerning Christ. This is why Jesus says that “many will come to me in that day and say, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt 7:22-23)

We may bicker whether those people have “assurance” of salvation, but the real concern is whether or not they were ever saved.

Notice that Jesus goes on to say that,

[SIGN]"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."[/SIGN]

This explanation by Christ is important, because it shows that there are people who DID those sayings that He commanded, yet they still did not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Salvation has NOTHING to do with works. Faith does.

The difficulty in understanding this subtle difference is found in the fact that even the devils believe (have faith), yet they tremble. (James 2:19) Obviously, we know that the devils do not get entrance into the kingdom of heaven, so what more is required besides faith and works? That is the question that most Catholics and Protestants cannot answer.

 

[paul_c]

I want to change the plane of this discussion just a little bit to make a point. One of the most basic differences between Protestants and Catholics is a disagreement on the primacy of the theological virtues. Both agree in principle that the theological virtues are Faith, Hope and Charity (Love). Protestants believe in the primacy of Faith, while Catholics believe in the primacy of Love.

Lets see how this plays out in this discussion: Protestants clearly believe in the primacy of Faith. One of the core tenets of Protestantism is Sola Fide: Salvation by Faith Alone. OSAS is simply an extension of Sola Fide to state that once Faith has been determined, it can never be lost. Protestants take too distinct paths in describing how this works. One group will say that once faith is claimed, Christ in his mercy will always save you, no matter what you do, even if you apostacize. The other group will say that true faith will never allow you to apostacize, and if you do, you never had true faith. Some members of this second group will extend it to say, if you don’t do works of love, you never had true faith either.

Catholics see it differently. While recognizing that you have to have faith, they see love as the driving virtue of salvation. There is significant Scriptural support for this.
In Matthew 19: 16-21, Jesus defines what is needed to get to heaven:
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

In Matthew 22, he further explains that the commandments are about Love:
36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
37 He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it:You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

St. Paul, in 1corinthians13 state the primacy of love in no uncertain terms:

1. If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
   2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
   3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
   4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
   5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
   6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
   7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
   8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
   9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
   10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
   11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
   12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
   13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Finally, St. James agrees with Paul that Faith without works is dead in James 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

If you believe in the primacy of love for salvation, then OSAS is impossible because true love can never cease. Without a one time defining event, there can be no OSAS

 

[wmscott]

PEPCIS

You state “Here is the problem with this paragraph: Yes, sometimes Fundamentalists/Protestants do portray salvation as if OSAS. But it is important to remember that although Catholics get SOME of their doctrine concerning salvation correct, it does not mean that they get ALL of it correct. The same goes for Protestants”.

I agree with this however, to say that the Catholic Church got some of the doctrine incorrect is to say that Christ and the Holy Spirit is in error. Nevertheless, we will never agree on this issue. That is OK.

You State “In this particular instance, the place where both some Protestants and some Catholics get it wrong is in not realizing that some people make false professions concerning Christ. This is why Jesus says that “many will come to me in that day and say, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt 7:22-23)”

You, me, or anyone else do not know a mans heart or state of his soul. You can have a truly repentant man, who then stumbles and sins. Is he then condemened for asll eternity? On the other hand, does God allow him to find his way back and repent? I think that he does. To say “some people make false professions concerning Christ” is saying that they were just wolves in sheep’s clothing and had not intention of ever repenting to begin with, just making a public appearance of it. However, the man that does profess in Christ is still and always will be a sinner and will stumble and sin again. Therefore, man needs to “work out his salvation with fear and trembling”.

You State “We may bicker whether those people have “assurance” of salvation, but the real concern is whether they were ever saved”.

So someone can find God, are saved, stumble and sin, then be denied repentance? This statement IMHO seems to lead to OSAS. It also state to me that OSAS a person is incapable of ever sinning again.

You state “ This explanation by Christ is important, because it shows that there are people who DID those sayings that He commanded, yet they still did not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Salvation has NOTHING to do with works. Faith does.

The difficulty in understanding this subtle difference is found in the fact that even the devils believe (have faith), yet they tremble. (James 2:19) Obviously, we know that the devils do not get entrance into the kingdom of heaven, so what more is required besides faith and works? That is the question that most Catholics and Protestants cannot answer “.

Let us look at James 2: 17 – 22 and in context

17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

19You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.

20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.

Ver. 18. Some men will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Show me thy faith, &c. He confutes the same error, by putting them in mind that one can show that he has faith, which is an interior virtue, only by good works, and that good works in a man show also his faith; which is not to be understood, as if good works were merely the marks, signs, and effects of faith, as some would pretend, but that good works must concur with faith to a man’s salvation by an increase in grace.

Ver. 19. The devils also believe, and tremble. St. James compares indeed faith without other virtues and good works, to the faith of devils: but comparisons must never be stretched farther than they are intended. The meaning is, that such a faith in sinners is unprofitable to salvation, like that of devils, which is no more than a conviction from their knowledge of God; but faith which remains in sinners, is from a supernatural knowledge, together with a pious motion in their free will.

Ver. 21. Was not Abraham…justified by works? We may observe that St. James here brings the very same examples of Abraham and Rahab, which it is likely he knew some had misconstrued in St. Paul, as if the great apostle of the Gentiles had taught that faith alone was sufficient to salvation. But St. Paul neither excludes good works done by faith, when he commends faith, excluding only the works of the law of Moses, as insufficient to a true justification. See Romans 3:27 And St. James by requiring good works does not exclude faith, but only teaches that faith alone is not enough. This is what he clearly expresses here in the 22nd and in the 24th verse. Man, says he, is justified, and not by faith only. And (ver. 22.) see thou that faith did co-operate with Abraham’s works, and by works faith was made perfect. We must take notice, that when St. James here brings the example of Abraham offering his son Isaac, to show that he was justified by works, his meaning is not that Abraham then began first to be justified, but that he then received an increase of his justice. He was justified at least from his first being called, and began then to believe and to do good works. It is true his faith was made perfect, and his justice increased, when he was willing to sacrifice his son.

A last question, in Corinthians they talk about Faith, Hope, and Love. Why do they say that “Love” is the greatest of these?

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Yes, it does. But only the “free” part, not your will

So we are forced to accept God’s grace?

It’s what the Bible teaches. We are MADE to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Also, we can read where Jesus says, “All that the Father has given me, While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name: those that you gave to me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; this was done so that the scripture might be fulfilled.” (John 17:12)

If you could lose your salvation, then you would have power over the force of prophecy, being able to thwart God’s will. Notice that this verse says that God chooses the elect, and He gives them to His Son.

TheWhoFreak:

I don’t want God to force His grace on me.

Then stop breathing! And while you’re at it, don’t eat, don’t put on any clothes, don’t drive your car, walk away from your family and forget that you ever had a wife. Every one of these things are given to us by God’s grace.

TheWhoFreak:

I want God to be a loving and just God who gives grace to those whom He wills.

I want God to be the Jelly Bean God, giving me free jelly beans whenever I ask for them!! Ok, I know I’m being sarcastic. But seriously, it doesn’t matter what you or I want. God is who He is. “He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion. So then it is not of him that wills it to happen, nor of him that works for it, but it is of God that shows mercy.” (Romans 9:15-16)

TheWhoFreak:

I want the option of rejecting God’s grace as well. I’m not saying I would use that option. . .

I don’t know of any sincere Christian who believes that he would. It is preposterous to think that you could.

TheWhoFreak:

. . . even so, our choice to follow God has to be totally free.

Who says?

God gave us a will that is able to be exercised within the domain that we live. Before he regenerates us, we are captured by the Devil and serve him, therefore, our wills are NOT free. We have a will, but it is subject to the Devil’s whims. Ephesians 2 states that clearly we serve him.

But then a wondrous thing occurs, and we are saved by God, taken out of the domain of the Devil, and now we live in God’s glorious kingdom. Our wills still are not free, but they are oriented toward Him, instead of toward the Devil.

TheWhoFreak:

Our wills are totally free. Why do you not want to believe that?

Because the Bible teaches the opposite. I just showed that to you. Why do you not accept what the Bible teaches?

TheWhoFreak:

As I said earlier, all those in Hell chose it. You agreed. Yet you contradict yourself by saying that we don’t have a totally free choice in our actions! If those in Hell didn’t have a totally free choice, then God would not be a just God, because if He knew that those people’s choices weren’t their own, how could they be judged for it?

If I offered you ice cream, and I limited your choices to either Vanilla or Strawberry, then you don’t have the complete freedom to accept the Chocolate, because it is not even an option. It is the same with salvation. Salvation is not even an option for those who are not elect.

However, the knowledge of Chocolate is freely available to everyone. So too is the knowledge of salvation. Christ died to make that so.

TheWhoFreak:

Therefore, how can places like Heaven or Hell exist if we don’t have free will? Hell would have no use because those there would not be completely to blame for their actions. Heaven would be likewise useless, because all those there would not have made a free choice to accept God’s grace.

I’m not so sure that there is a literal hell, but that’s for another topic/board/discussion. In any case, people who fail to acknowledge God are responsible for their own mind. I don’t force them to reject Christ, or to claim that there is no God.

TheWhoFreak:

Ephesians 2:8 describes grace as a “gift of God”. Like all gifts, we can accept it or tell the person who gives it that we don’t want it. Or we can take it, become bored with it after a while, or not want it anymore, and return it to the store. Using the gift scenario, you see God giving grace as someone who gives us a gift, but then duct tapes the gift to our body, thus rendering it impossible to get off. That is not a just God, and certainly not how God gives us grace.

Well, that is your opinion. I believe it is a just God. A just God is someone who gives us what we deserve. The Bible says that each and every one of us is deserving of death and hell. How can it be unjust to save some of us from that certain death and destruction?

 

[paul_c]

Pepcis,
The bible clearly teaches free will. It is all about the choices we have in life and the ramification of those choices. It starts off in Genesis 1, describing that man was made in the image and likeness of God. It teaches great moral truths through the commandments, the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount. Most of the Epistles have sections describing how to lead a Christian life. We are exhorted to do good and avoid sin and to love God and Neighbor. We are told that we will be tested in life and we are told that we will be judged based on our actions (Matthew 25: 31-46). Why would we be told this, if in fact, everything was predestined?

The fact is, God gave all of us many gifts. He gave us life. He gave us free will. He gave us the capacity to reason and a conscience to tell us right from wrong. If we partake in the sacraments, he also gives us Grace. We humans value Freedom extremely highly, sometimes more than life itself, because it is one of God’s great gifts to us. And yes, it can be limited, but never fully taken away. We were given reason and conscience to help us use this freedom. This makes us in the image and likeness of God. We are independent beings, because God made us so. And God gave us the ultimate motivation to do his will… If we use our gifts for love, we will be rewarded by being in God’s presence in heaven. If we use them in self interest, we will be condemned to hell. So God has made our lives very meaningful.

I can understand the desired to give God all the credit out of humility. However, this sells God short. He is fully capable of carrying out his plan while allowing us to have free will. He is after all, omnipotent and omniscient. His all powerful love allows him to give us freedom and to make our lives have meaning. His infinite justice allows us to be judged based on our own actions, each according to the gifts we have recieved. Contrast this to the theology you are espousing, where God makes all the decisions, rendering us as mere puppets, while simultaneously rewarding some and condemning others for things they had no role in deciding.

As for OSAS, this is an impossible theory in a just world. Those that apostacize can never be rewarded. Similarly, salvation based on faith alone, makes no sense in a just world, because faith is an internal thing and justice requires action.