Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[ParkerD]

Telstar (Lori),

Thanks for explaining your point of view. It’s an interesting way to look at how God, being all good, could take “free gifts” and give them to Lucifer, already knowing perfectly (I have to assume given that God is omniscient) that some of those “free gifts” were going to lead toward Lucifer having those gifts “go to his head”–which would mean that God gave Lucifer gifts that were perhaps too much for Lucifer to handle?

Should God, being all good and all knowing, have known that those free gifts were going to “go to Lucifer’s head” and therefore because He is perfectly good and knew the consequence that was eventually going to come from Lucifer’s rebellion, have “known better” than to give him the gifts that were going to “go to his head”?

If not, then why did He do that?

Was He not all knowing after all, or not all good after all?

To be all knowing would mean He knew perfectly what the consequences of those “free gifts” were going to be in the case of Lucifer.

 

[TexanKnight]

Like I said. He dodged.

I pray for you daily, Brother Parker

 

[TexanKnight]

Since I predicted it and it came true, can I be considered a prophet? :bounce:

 

[ParkerD]

Like I said. He dodged.

I pray for you daily, Brother Parker

TexanKnight,

Your comment was irrelevant to my questions, so I ignored it, even though I did pull it up to read it since it was a pretty good guess to assume that you might be commenting to me. (You would be aware of the tool that is available on this website, which I choose to use in some cases.)

Peace to you and all readers.

 

[GEddie]

Since I predicted it and it came true, can I be considered a prophet? :bounce:

You don’t want to be known as a prophet. Biblically, they come into very strict judgements and/or die particularly nasty deaths (of course, ALL death is nasty).

I am ecstatic to be a “nonprophet”.

ICXC NIKA

 

[TexanKnight]

TexanKnight,

Your comment was irrelevant to my questions, so I ignored it, even though I did pull it up to read it since it was a pretty good guess to assume that you might be commenting to me. (You would be aware of the tool that is available on this website, which I choose to use in some cases.)

Peace to you and all readers.

Please do not confuse your inability to answer or the risk you face of acknowledging I am right with irrelevance. It was, and is, relevant. Your dodge was noted

 

[Telstar]

Telstar (Lori),

Thanks for explaining your point of view. It’s an interesting way to look at how God, being all good, could take “free gifts” and give them to Lucifer, already knowing perfectly (I have to assume given that God is omniscient) that some of those “free gifts” were going to lead toward Lucifer having those gifts “go to his head”–which would mean that God gave Lucifer gifts that were perhaps too much for Lucifer to handle?

You’re very welcome, Parker. But, it seems that you’re not completely understanding everything I said, so I’ll try to answer your questions as well as I can.

First of all, God gives all of His gifts with an open heart, out of His divine love for all of His creatures. He doesn’t prejudge what some of those recipients will do with their gifts, even though He knows perfectly well what they’ll do. Instead of avoiding the consequences of giving gifts to those that will prove to be unworthy of them, He turns their inclination to do evil into a greater good for all those that will prove to be much more worthy of His gifts, and will truly appreciate them for what they are, free gifts. He gave many similar gifts to Michael and the other Archangels, but none of them chose to follow Lucifer. They proved themselves to be worthy of all the gifts that they received from God, by being completely faithful to Him. They fully appreciated the gifts that they were given, and didn’t ask for more than God was willing to give them.

Should God, being all good and all knowing, have known that those free gifts were going to “go to Lucifer’s head” and therefore because He is perfectly good and knew the consequence that was eventually going to come from Lucifer’s rebellion, have “known better” than to give him the gifts that were going to “go to his head”?

If not, then why did He do that?

God knew that Lucifer, and many others, would turn toward evil because they’d become self-centered. But, like I said, God gave them the freedom to choose to use their gifts for good purposes, or for evil. The angels were all created with full knowledge of right and wrong (good and evil), from the very beginning, unlike Adam & Eve. They were also well aware that they could make their own decision about obeying God, or not. They were created with complete freedom, but some of them chose to abuse the freedom that God had given to them, just like kids sometimes abuse the freedom that their parents give to them. But, God won’t interfere with any of the choices that we all make, and He wouldn’t interfere with the angel’s freedom to choose, either. He created the angels, and us, to share His immense love with us. But, He didn’t want to force any of us to love Him. He wants us to love Him for Who He is, because He’s good, not just because He can give us even more stuff if we do.

Was He not all knowing after all, or not all good after all?

He is all knowing, but He also respects the free will that He gave to all of us, including the angels. He knew that men like Hitler and Stalin would exist in this world, but their being evil is completely by their own choice in doing evil, and not by God creating them to be that way. We all do evil things because we choose to do them, instead of doing what we know we should be doing. We make our own choice to obey God and be good, or to ignore what God wants us to do, to follow our own ways of thinking. God creates us all to be good from the beginning, but we’re the ones who freely choose to become evil and serve our own selfish purposes, instead.

To be all knowing would mean He knew perfectly what the consequences of those “free gifts” were going to be in the case of Lucifer.

Yes. That’s exactly what it means. But, in the end, He will turn all of that evil into even more good. One thing that we must always remember is that His ways are not our ways, nor are our ways, His ways. Only He knows the real reason that He does what He does. We should always have complete trust in Him, and believe that He always has a perfect reason to do everything that He does, for our greater good.

 

[ParkerD]

You’re very welcome, Parker. But, it seems that you’re not completely understanding everything I said, so I’ll try to answer your questions as well as I can.

First of all, God gives all of His gifts with an open heart, out of His divine love for all of His creatures. He doesn’t prejudge what some of those recipients will do with their gifts, even though He knows perfectly well what they’ll do. Instead of avoiding the consequences of giving gifts to those that will prove to be unworthy of them, He turns their inclination to do evil into a greater good for all those that will prove to be much more worthy of His gifts, and will truly appreciate them for what they are, free gifts. He gave many similar gifts to Michael and the other Archangels, but none of them chose to follow Lucifer. They proved themselves to be worthy of all the gifts that they received from God, by being completely faithful to Him. They fully appreciated the gifts that they were given, and didn’t ask for more than God was willing to give them.

God knew that Lucifer, and many others, would turn toward evil because they’d become self-centered. But, like I said, God gave them the freedom to choose to use their gifts for good purposes, or for evil. The angels were all created with full knowledge of right and wrong (good and evil), from the very beginning, unlike Adam & Eve. They were also well aware that they could make their own decision about obeying God, or not. They were created with complete freedom, but some of them chose to abuse the freedom that God had given to them, just like kids sometimes abuse the freedom that their parents give to them. But, God won’t interfere with any of the choices that we all make, and He wouldn’t interfere with the angel’s freedom to choose, either. He created the angels, and us, to share His immense love with us. But, He didn’t want to force any of us to love Him. He wants us to love Him for Who He is, because He’s good, not just because He can give us even more stuff if we do.

He is all knowing, but He also respects the free will that He gave to all of us, including the angels. He knew that men like Hitler and Stalin would exist in this world, but their being evil is completely by their own choice in doing evil, and not by God creating them to be that way. We all do evil things because we choose to do them, instead of doing what we know we should be doing. We make our own choice to obey God and be good, or to ignore what God wants us to do, to follow our own ways of thinking. God creates us all to be good from the beginning, but we’re the ones who freely choose to become evil and serve our own selfish purposes, instead.

Yes. That’s exactly what it means. But, in the end, He will turn all of that evil into even more good. One thing that we must always remember is that His ways are not our ways, nor are our ways, His ways. Only He knows the real reason that He does what He does. We should always have complete trust in Him, and believe that He always has a perfect reason to do everything that He does, for our greater good.

Telstar (Lori),

I appreciate this explanation. The idea that you conveyed of “inclination to do evil into a greater good…” seems to be at odds with what Soren1 explained. So I’m glad to have this clarification. Thanks.

 

[TexanKnight]

Telstar (Lori),

I appreciate this explanation. The idea that you conveyed of “inclination to do evil into a greater good…” seems to be at odds with what Soren1 explained. So I’m glad to have this clarification. Thanks.

Brother Parker, the fact you have to dodge SO many issues regarding your church should tell you something about your church.

Why not give RCIA a shot?

 

[Telstar]

Telstar (Lori),

I appreciate this explanation. The idea that you conveyed of “inclination to do evil into a greater good…” seems to be at odds with what Soren1 explained. So I’m glad to have this clarification. Thanks.

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by saying that my explanation seems to be at odds with what Soren said. Can you tell me why you’d say that? I don’t think it is, but I’m sure he can clarify whether it is or not, for both of us. I’m also a little concerned, and downright dumbfounded, that the only point that you seem to have latched onto out of that whole post, was that God has the power to make something good out of a bad situation. The way you pulled that phrase out of context, almost seems like you’re twisting my words in a way that I never intended them. To be honest, I don’t think you really understood anything I said. Instead, you seem to be trying to make it look as though Soren and I are contradicting each other, when I certainly don’t think we are.

Also, if you’re going to quote me, please, make sure it’s accurate and in full context, so my real point is made clear to anyone who might read it.

Thanks.

 

[ParkerD]

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by saying that my explanation seems to be at odds with what Soren said. Can you tell me why you’d say that? I don’t think it is, but I’m sure he can clarify whether it is or not, for both of us. I’m also a little concerned, and downright dumbfounded, that the only point that you seem to have latched onto out of that whole post, was that God has the power to make something good out of a bad situation. The way you pulled that phrase out of context, almost seems like you’re twisting my words in a way that I never intended them. To be honest, I don’t think you really understood anything I said. Instead, you seem to be trying to make it look as though Soren and I are contradicting each other, when I certainly don’t think we are.

Also, if you’re going to quote me, please, make sure it’s accurate and in full context, so my real point is made clear to anyone who might read it.

Thanks.

Telstar (Lori),

Sorry to have been in a hurry. I’m on the way out, anyway.

 

[TexanKnight]

Brother Parker, yet another dodge.

It is clear your church does not have the answers. Why not try a church where you do NOT have dodge and whitewash?

 

[Telstar]

Telstar (Lori),

Sorry to have been in a hurry. I’m on the way out, anyway.

I’m hoping you meant that you’re “on the way out” of Mormonism.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

God spoke His LOGOS/WORD who existed with God as ONE BEFORE the world existed
(the following word study on Logos from the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible by Dr. Scott Hahn and Curtis Mitch, the Gospel of John page 17) italics, underline, color use are mine.

"This term “Logos” or “Word” is used 330 times in NT with 2 backgrounds

1. Ancient Greek Philosophers associated “the Word” with the *order & design *of the universe or with the intelligible expression of the mind of God as he sustains or governs it.
2. In Biblical tradition the Word is the powerful utterance of God that brought all things into being at the time of dawn (Gen 1:3 “then God said Let there be light”; Ps 33:4-6 “For upright is the word of the Lord, and all his works are trustworthy. He loves justice and right; of the kindness of the lord the earth is full. By the word of the Lord the heavens were made; by the breath of his mouth all their host… v. 9 For he spoke, and it was made: he commanded and it stood forth.”; Wis 9:1 “God of my fathers, Lord of mercy. you who have made all things by your word and by your wisdom have established man to rule the creatures produced by you.”)
3. Another biblical tradition links the Word of God with the Wisdom of God who was depicted as God’s eternal companion (Prov 8:23 “From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth”; Sirach 24:9 “Before all ages, in the beginning he created me, and through all ages I shall not cease to be”), the craftsman who labored alongside God at creation (Prov 8:30 “Then I was beside him as his craftsman, and I was his delight day by day”; Wis 7:22 “for Wisdom, the artificer of all, taught me”), and the one who remains a source of life for the world (Prov 8:35 “For he who finds me finds life, and wins favor from the Lord; But he who misses me harms himself; all who hate me love death.”).

John, it seem, has pulled these traditions together to say something entirely new: The Word of God is not so much an abstract principle or an audible power as it is a Divine Person: God the Son (Rev 19:13 see below). This eternal Word, once a mediator of creation, has now become a mediator of salvation through his Incarnation (Jn 1:14 "The Word became Flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we have seen his glory: the glory of an only Son coming from Father, filled with an enduring love.“Jn 3:17 “God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved.”)”

as per the New American, p.688

Prov 8 22-31
" “The Lord begot me, the firstborn of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago; From of old I was poured forth, at the first* before the earth.* When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains or springs of water;…”
v. 27 "When he established the heavens I was there,… when he made the skies above, when he fixed fast the foundations of the earth;…

Rev 19:13 "He word a cloak that had been dipped in blood, and his name was the Word of God. The armies of heaven were behind him riding with white horses… v. 15 Out of his mouth came a sharp sword for striking down the nations, He will shepherd them with an iron rod: it is he who will tread out in the winepress the blazing wrath of God the Almighty. A name was written on the part of the cloak that covered the thigh: “King of kings and Lord of Lords.”

Another layer: separation of Light from Dark - creation of the angelic realm, created before the universe, given a test/choice and this realm separated into: Light (2/3 chose God) and dark (1/3 lost to hell, live eternally in darkness) When did Jewish writings PREDICT that we would be saved by a created being of angelic nature - “brother” to the worst of all fallen individuals, to an individual HE created? Where is the Deceiver, the Liar from the beginning known as an eternal “Son of God” in any OT or NT writings?

None but Jesus Christ is Wisdom, Creator, Craftsman, in him you find Life; He Is the great I AM, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Light of the World, the Way the Truth and the Life, the Bread of Life that comes down from heaven, has eternal life, The Savior … truly, truly the Book of John in a nutshell essentially.

Many issues in LDS theology that cannot be “squared” as is continually attested to in these blogs…

 

[KathleenGee]

Pepband Mom…

Yes, the whole universe is based on weight, measurement and order – the natural law…and God’s work of prophecy works within these boundaries…God honors His own creation…Wisdom 8:11…the entire foundation for the evolution of science by the Catholic Church in the Mid Scholastic era.

 

[ParkerD]

I’m hoping you meant that you’re “on the way out” of Mormonism.

Telstar (Lori),

No way, of course as you would know.

I meant that my personal desire, having written enough on this forum, is to be “on the way out” of participating further (because quite honestly it really does seem like entering continuously revolving doors), and am hoping to do that with having “done all” that I felt impressed to do so that I’m not leaving some question unanswered that the Spirit was whispering that I should answer for the benefit of some reader or other.

Peace to you and all readers.

 

[TexanKnight]

Telstar (Lori),

No way, of course as you would know.

I meant that my personal desire, having written enough on this forum, is to be “on the way out” of participating further (because quite honestly it really does seem like entering continuously revolving doors), and am hoping to do that with having “done all” that I felt impressed to do so that I’m not leaving some question unanswered that the Spirit was whispering that I should answer for the benefit of some reader or other.

Peace to you and all readers.

There is no shame in not being able to answer questions. Sadly, there are no good answers for a LDS person when confronted with the truth we have presented. I have truly never held it against you that you have dodged 85% of the questions I have asked and points I have brought up.

I hope that this reality will cause you to come home to the truth. I was not kidding when I said I would enjoy our discussions as you take RCIA. You seem to be an intelligent person and the discussions would likely benefit us both.

I will keep you in my prayers

 

[illusion_buster]

Publisher,

Thank you tremendously for this explanation and your earlier comments.

This passage has been used more to support a belief in reincarnation. Would this also be termed pre-existance? I think the most obvious bible passage is creation it’self. God planned the evolution of the universe with exact steps. With great THOUGHT!. If man was His greatest creation, then more not less thought would apply. Before one creates, one first has to THINK of what to create. If God existed without beginning or end and that God ‘THOUGHT’ first, before making physical… Then pre-existance could truthfully exist as a ‘thought’ from God before materializing as the flesh. This would be pre-existance to OUR life but not pre-existance of God or co-existance other than the UN thought thought. ‘Thought’ cannot be separate from it’s source or exist prior to being thought…it projects forth from it’s source…it doesn’t exist prior. I would think that a ‘thought’ of God would be powerful indeed… not what WE would produce. God’s thoughts materialized into matter and then flesh. God’s thoughts are our pre-existance!

 

[rmcmullan]

So the situation as I understand it so far is that God creates us, body and soul, and plants us on this earth. Maybe we’re all created the same, maybe not, but He them imbues us with “Free Will”, an unstable element which will either makes us saints or sinners.

So what is this Free Will? Is it eternal? Did it always exist or is it merely a magical word created to cover up the gaping whole in Catholic Theology that was placed there when the true princlple of the pre-existence was abandoned? Did God create Free Will?

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Also found another Bible reference: Ephesians 1: 4 (and i think verse 5)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestined us unto the adoption of the children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Since God is eternal , he is not bound by time , at least not in the sense of our human concept of time . He can chose , and does, " act " in and out of time . There is nothing to prevent God’s knowledge of our “future " existence ( " future” in the human concept ) or even our " future " actions ( again , “future” in the human sense ) . In this light , I don’t see how this Bible reference supports your position .