Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[TexanKnight]

So the situation as I understand it so far is that God creates us, body and soul, and plants us on this earth. Maybe we’re all created the same, maybe not, but He them imbues us with “Free Will”, an unstable element which will either makes us saints or sinners.

So what is this Free Will? Is it eternal? Did it always exist or is it merely a magical word created to cover up the gaping whole in Catholic Theology that was placed there when the true princlple of the pre-existence was abandoned? Did God create Free Will?

You owe me a keyboard. I read your post and spewed Diet Pepsi on it.

Free Will is from God. So, for Catholics, since God has never told us about His thoughts (remember, God tells us in the Bible that His thoughts are not our thoughts) so you mocking God in your post is a bit odd.

I can see where you would have trouble with free will since your god was once a sinful man. I guess his free will made him a sinner before he was “glorified”. But God endows all of us with intelligence, a conscience, and the ability to choose. Your comments are not even remotely logical as you try so desperately to find fault in the very concept that allows you to be not even remotely logical as you so desperately to find fault in that very concept.

It was free will that allowed Joseph to choose to commit the crime of treasure seeking. It was free will that allowed him to make up a story (with at least 9 versions) of a first vision. It was free will that allowed him to break the law and defraud so many people in the banking scandal. It was free will that allowed him to make his people build him a house. It was free will that allowed him to decide that Fanny Alger was worth being unfaithful. It was free will that allowed him to cover it up with the notion of polygamy. It was free will that allowed him to teach God was Spirit and then change his mind. It was free will that allowed him to fire his gun blindly at people in the Carthage Jail.

Mock us all you wish. All it does is make us pray for you harder. All we want is the best for you. All we want is to help you.

I will, in fact, say a Rosary for you

 

[rmcmullan]

I see you spew more than just Diet pepsi! I know I am occasionally and possibly unnescessarily provocative. What can I do when no one will give me a straight answer? None of this is making any sense unless you admit to a pre-existence.

So you are saying free will is from God. I guess that means He created it? It wasn’t something that was always there. He created it but has not control on it. He created Chaos? He created the disposition to do evil as well as good? Seriously, how does that make ANY sense?

Look, this is just a divide by zero, just like the Trinity. A paradox. It just doesn’t make sense. So just come out and say it “I know this doesn’t make any sense but I believe it might be true.” That’s okay, we’re not scientists, we people of faith. But if you want to defend it, at least make some kind of sense.

 

[TexanKnight]

I see you spew more than just Diet pepsi!

Yes. I spew truth. Thank you for noticing.

I know I am occasionally and possibly unnescessarily provocative.

Not really. I see you as another LDS who gets upset when faced with truth

What can I do when no one will give me a straight answer? None of this is making any sense unless you admit to a pre-existence.

Actually, it all makes perfect sense. The Pre-existence makes no sense at all. Your inability to understand free will shows that free will is alive and well

So you are saying free will is from God.

Do you doubt God’s ability?

I guess that means He created it?

You make it sound like a house. God has always allowed His children to make their own choices. Hence Eve being allowed to choose the fruit. It also allows you the freedom to be rude on this board. You are able to make the choices as to what you will do and say.

It wasn’t something that was always there. He created it but has not control on it. He created Chaos? He created the disposition to do evil as well as good? Seriously, how does that make ANY sense?

God allowing something to be makes perfect sense when the God you worship is all-powerful. I admit, when your god used to be a sinful man, it is a little more difficult to comprehend

Look, this is just a divide by zero, just like the Trinity. A paradox.

Just because God is not something easy to comprehend does not make it untrue. The problem with Mormons is the same problem that always existed in heresy: Humans, unable to comprehend God, made Him small enough to understand. I suggest you stop trying to humanize God and just worship Him.

 

[SteveVH]

So the situation as I understand it so far is that God creates us, body and soul, and plants us on this earth. Maybe we’re all created the same, maybe not, but He them imbues us with “Free Will”, an unstable element which will either makes us saints or sinners.

So what is this Free Will? Is it eternal? Did it always exist or is it merely a magical word created to cover up the gaping whole in Catholic Theology that was placed there when the true princlple of the pre-existence was abandoned? Did God create Free Will?

Free will, along with rational thought, intellect, and the ability to love are marks of being created in the image of God. Being made in his image has nothing to do with our physical bodies (remember Jesus became incarnate, he was not always so).

In order for “good” to exist, it must be chosen. And with that choice is the option of choosing evil. God does not cause us to choose evil but he also never interferes in our free will. We are beings responsible for our own actions, as opposed to the animals.

 

[Telstar]

So the situation as I understand it so far is that God creates us, body and soul, and plants us on this earth. Maybe we’re all created the same, maybe not, but He them imbues us with “Free Will”, an unstable element which will either makes us saints or sinners.

Your biggest problem is that you clearly can’t understand any of it, because you’ve been taught to believe falsehoods about God, and His whole Creation, from the time you were born into your church. Free will is our God-given ability to choose, to make our own decisions, between doing good and doing evil (aka: to choose between right and wrong). Free will is only “unstable” if the person exercising it is mentally unstable, and incapable of making the right choice for themselves. In the end, we will all be held personally responsible (by God) for all of the choices that we make in our life. If we choose to do good, then we’ll be rewarded by God for our virtue. But, if we choose to do evil, then we’ll have to suffer the consequences of our own sinful actions.

We’re completely in charge of the final state of our own soul, that will be judged by God at the end of our earthly life (with no ‘second chance’ to change our mind). God never interferes with our freedom to choose, but we can only make our choices while we’re living in this world, not in the next. We only get one chance to do it right. But, as we learned from the example of the ‘good thief’, we can still be forgiven if we ask for it with a truly humble and contrite heart, even at the very end our life.

So what is this Free Will? Is it eternal? Did it always exist or is it merely a magical word created to cover up the gaping whole in Catholic Theology that was placed there when the true princlple of the pre-existence was abandoned? Did God create Free Will?

Free will is your ability choose to be good or bad, a nice guy or a total jerk. So, you can mock the beliefs of the Catholic Church all you like, just remember that you will have to answer to God for that, in the end. Because, when you mock His True Church, you also mock Him. But, that’s your choice, too.

The “principle” of preexistence was never taught by Jesus Christ, or it would be a doctrine of the Catholic Church. Contrary to LDS belief, the Catholic Church has always been extremely careful to retain all of His teachings and doctrines, unchanged, from the time Jesus gave Peter the Keys to Heaven. No matter what Joseph Smith told you, the Catholic Church still holds all of those Keys, and always will. The most important choice that you have to make in life, is between Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ. They’re not compatible choices, because their teachings are polar opposites.

 

[rmcmullan]

I still see it as this: God created us, body and soul, heart and mind. He gave us the choice to be good or evil and in order to achieve that, he gave us the heart and mind to be enticed by evil.

So why would He get upset if we are enticed? He made us that way.

It makes more sense if we came by our natures on our own and were placed her to try them.

I was thinking of the parable of the sower. In that, there was a variety of seed and some grew and flourished and some did not. But the sower has to pick his seed from what’s available. If he could create the seed, he would create nothing but the best.

 

[TexanKnight]

I still see it as this: God created us, body and soul, heart and mind. He gave us the choice to be good or evil and in order to achieve that, he gave us the heart and mind to be enticed by evil.

lol. He gave you the freedom to choose. If you choose to make it a bad thing, then you have proven the concept of free will. Thank you.

It makes more sense if we came by our natures on our own and were placed her to try them.

Ah…so you like it better if he gave you free will in the pre-existence. So for you, it is a matter of timing. Got it

I was thinking of the parable of the sower. In that, there was a variety of seed and some grew and flourished and some did not. But the sower has to pick his seed from what’s available. If he could create the seed, he would create nothing but the best.

God created us and gave us all we need. It is up to us to decide to “be the best”

 

[Telstar]

I still see it as this: God created us, body and soul, heart and mind. He gave us the choice to be good or evil and in order to achieve that, he gave us the heart and mind to be enticed by evil.

We’re “enticed” by both good and evil, so the choice is still ours to make.

So why would He get upset if we are enticed? He made us that way.

Since you always have a choice between doing right and wrong, it’s up to you to decide which one you prefer over the other. He’s always upset when we refuse to accept His immense love for us, and instead choose to separate ourselves from Him, to follow our own sinful way of life. He’s always given us plenty of examples of the right way and wrong way of doing things, especially if we read the Bible and know what Jesus taught. So, if we’re well aware of the difference, we have no excuse for choosing to do evil instead of good. It’s what we want, and the way we choose to live our lives.

It makes more sense if we came by our natures on our own and were placed her to try them.

We’re creatures of God. He created us out of nothing but His love, that He desperately wants to share with us. It makes no difference if we existed before or not. Even though you believe we did, there will always be some people that will choose to do evil and others will choose to do good. Hitler still would have turned out evil in either scenario, because it was always his own choice to make. In the end, it’s always our choice to pick between following the ways of God, or the ways of the devil. God will never interfere, or try to force us to love Him. If we really love Him, the choice to be good is an easy one to make. If we don’t, then it’s just as easy for us to choose to be evil.

I was thinking of the parable of the sower. In that, there was a variety of seed and some grew and flourished and some did not. But the sower has to pick his seed from what’s available. If he could create the seed, he would create nothing but the best.

God is the sower. He spreads the seeds, but whether they turn out to be good or bad depends a lot on the circumstances that they grow up in. Some of those seeds will be severely stunted by their surroundings, while others will land in good soil, with a firm foundation, and will flourish. Some might even be able to overcome their harsh circumstances and flourish, even when the odds are against them surviving all the way to maturity, and producing good fruit. Even some of the seed that lands in good soil, still might not grow as strong as the others around them. It’s what’s on the inside, as well as the outside, that determines what will come from all those seeds.

 

[SteveVH]

I still see it as this: God created us, body and soul, heart and mind. He gave us the choice to be good or evil and in order to achieve that, he gave us the heart and mind to be enticed by evil.

So why would He get upset if we are enticed? He made us that way.

There is no sin in being “enticed” or “tempted”. It is what we do with the enticement or temptation that matters. We can, through the grace of God, overcome the temptation. If instead we give into it, that is the point in which we enter into sin. Remember, even Jesus was tempted, but he did not sin. He overcame it.

It makes more sense if we came by our natures on our own and were placed her to try them.

I was thinking of the parable of the sower. In that, there was a variety of seed and some grew and flourished and some did not. But the sower has to pick his seed from what’s available. If he could create the seed, he would create nothing but the best.

And this is one of the great errors in Mormonism; that we came by our natures on our own. You seem to have no sense or understanding that we are creatures and therefore have a Creator. We did not make ourselves. Genesis tells us that when we were created God saw that it was good, and even “very good”. We were created with free will in order to choose good, because if it is not chosen, goodness does not exist. A consequence of freedom is that we are also free to choose evil, as did satan and one-third of the angels in heaven. Lucifer was created good, in fact more glorious than the rest of the angels, but he chose evil out his own pride. We have the same choices to make in our lives. God did not create evil, he created free beings and true freedom exists only in choosing good. Choosing sin makes us slaves.

As for your comments on the parable of the sower, you miss the point. It has nothing to do with the seeds. The seeds are all good. God did create nothing but the best. It depends on whether or not they take root in good soil or are strangled by the weeds around them. The parable is about each of us and whether or not we allow faith to take root in our lives so that we are growing in “good soil” and have the strength to defeat the weeds (evil) that grow around us. You need to read the parable again.

 

[theidler]

Telstar (Lori),

No way, of course as you would know.

I meant that my personal desire, having written enough on this forum, is to be “on the way out” of participating further (because quite honestly it really does seem like entering continuously revolving doors), and am hoping to do that with having “done all” that I felt impressed to do so that I’m not leaving some question unanswered that the Spirit was whispering that I should answer for the benefit of some reader or other.

Peace to you and all readers.

It is too bad that you are not leaving the Mormon sect behind - I am sure it is a hard thing to do. I still struggle with my Adventist roots sometimes.
But I hope that all of us have somehow planted a seed of the Gospel in your heart that will grow later on.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmcmullan
I still see it as this: God created us, body and soul, heart and mind. He gave us the choice to be good or evil and in order to achieve that, he gave us the heart and mind to be enticed by evil.

So why would He get upset if we are enticed? He made us that way.

Are you stating God tempts us?

 

[rmcmullan]

The whole point of the sower parable is the seeds. If you can create perfect seeds, why mess with all the imperfect ones. Unless they were there and you wanted to help them. If you can create perfect seeds and make strong beautiful plants, why would you raise up an orchard of twsited olive trees?

 

[Jerusha]

I don’t understand your point. God created us all as uniquely individual. I believe that all of creation is precious in God’s sight.

Do you believe that some humans had the pre-existence, and others (the twisted ones) did not?

 

[TexanKnight]

The whole point of the sower parable is the seeds. If you can create perfect seeds, why mess with all the imperfect ones. Unless they were there and you wanted to help them. If you can create perfect seeds and make strong beautiful plants, why would you raise up an orchard of twsited olive trees?

That is not the reason of the parable. But, I understand that your LDS is imperfect.

 

[Nicea325]

The whole point of the sower parable is the seeds. If you can create perfect seeds, why mess with all the imperfect ones. Unless they were there and you wanted to help them. If you can create perfect seeds and make strong beautiful plants, why would you raise up an orchard of twsited olive trees?

You still have not answered my question:

Are you stating God tempts us?

 

[ParkerD]

You still have not answered my question:

Are you stating God tempts us?

Nicea325,

I think you completely misunderstood what was being asked about Catholic beliefs. That was the discussion point, so if you answer the question you ask here from the standpoint of a Catholic getting asked that question, then you’ll have your answer.

 

[melekali]

It seems that at the heart of the differences between many Mormon and traditional Christian beliefs lies the doctrine of pre-mortal existence; the idea that we have co-existed from eternity with God as eternal “intelligences” who then become “spirit children” of God and then came to earth to take on human flesh in order to begin the process of exaltation for the final purpose of becoming gods ourselves. Within this doctrine is also the belief that even inert matter is co-eternal with God, having no beginning. This doctrine is so basic to Mormon thought that it governs nearly all of its subsequent theology and is the cause, in my opinion, of much misunderstanding. If I have mis-stated anything here I am open to correction.

My question is this. Where in biblical Scripture is there any evidence of this? The best I can find are verses such as “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer 1:5). It does not appear though, that this conveyed the meaning held by the LDS Church to anyone but the LDS, rather it is interpreted by most Christians to mean that God is omniscient, or “all knowing”.

Since this doctrine is so basic to Mormon theology, and so oppossed to traditional Christian theology, I thought it was worth discussion.

If what you have written in your first paragraph is accurate of Mormon belief, then the Mormons don’t know Scripture very well at all. Sounds like they are familiar with Gnostic belief.

Jer 1:5 speaks from God’s Omniscience & Omnipresence. How do we know this? Because it is God who is speaking, not man. It has no indication that the human person who is created (hence impossible to be eternal) has no beginning or end. What it means is that God knows fully both in time and in completeness. He knew me before he formed me because He is outside time. Hence, to try to stretch this passage to mean human beings are in some way always existent is nonsense.

 

[illusion_buster]

I was thinking of the parable of the sower. In that, there was a variety of seed and some grew and flourished and some did not. But the sower has to pick his seed from what’s available. If he could create the seed, he would create nothing but the best.

The SEED isn’t the point…the GROUND is! The seed is the word of God…the ground is the receiving heart of the listeners…US. The seed IS perfect…the ground is at different stages of receptiveness…too hard, too rocky, too thorny…or just right to receive the TRUTH of the word of God. What this has to do with pre-existance beets me??

 

[illusion_buster]

Possibly the REAL question is whether any of God Himself was breathed into adam when God breathed into him. What WAS in this ‘breath’ that completely changed the inert body of adam into the highest creation of God?
Every other created thing was ‘spoken forth’ from the Word. But Adam was ‘breathed into’ and became something MORE then all other creation. If we look at the universe, nature or ourselves for that matter…all things duplicate each other. A human doesn’t produce a donkey, a donkey doesn’t produce a tree…This is INBUILT into creation by it’s creator…producing after itself. Why? What was the template? God was the creator of this system. So…it is possible that when God created man “IN HIS IMAGE”…He did in fact breath something OF HIMSELF into each of us and it is THIS that is immortal. It can’t be eternal because there was a starting point. Only God is eternal (without begining or end). Co-existing with God prior to the thought of creating adam appears impossible. Co-existing intelligently with God prior to the thought of creating adam appears also impossible.

Unless what Jesus said "John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you. could lend something to the subject? Taken literally…we are one with God, and as Jesus was present with the Father in the Word, then by Jesus Himself, we were there even then…maybe as unthought thoughts???

 

[RebeccaJ]

I still see it as this: God created us, body and soul, heart and mind. He gave us the choice to be good or evil and in order to achieve that, he gave us the heart and mind to be enticed by evil.

So why would He get upset if we are enticed? He made us that way.

It makes more sense if we came by our natures on our own and were placed her to try them.

I was thinking of the parable of the sower. In that, there was a variety of seed and some grew and flourished and some did not. But the sower has to pick his seed from what’s available. If he could create the seed, he would create nothing but the best.

God did create the best, God created the world and called it good. God created us to love Him. Love that is forced is not love. He gave us free will in order that we could love Him freely. God places in our hearts a desire for Him, he does not place in our hearts a desire to do evil. Using our free will to sin against God is an abuse of the gift that God has given us.

The parable of the sower teaches us that some use the gift of free will to love God and serve Him, while others do not. God allows both to exist together but only those who have chosen good, over evil, will live in the immediate presence of God. What we call heaven.

The Good News is Jesus Christ, who has reconciled us to the Father. Through Him our sins are forgiven. His gaze is on all of us, even those whose sins are the most terrible imaginable. He is approachable to everyone.