Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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KathleenGee, merely stating something doesn’t make it true.

And if DNA made Peter James & John saints and apostles while Hitler and Stalin were made psychopathic mass murders by their DNA, who is to hold them to blame? They have no control over their DNA.

There can be no free will without an eternal identity.
At WYD in Sydney, there was a debate concerning “Are we more than our genes?”

The conclusion is that we in a sense are not, in that it is our genes that make us human beings.

However, it was pointed out that in the mid 1900s, Dutch researchers claimed to have discovered the gene for criminal behavior. It was found in the bodies of several imprisoned criminals – and also the PM of the country 🙂

ICXC NIKA
 
Going back to Genesis…when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they committed the first sin.

And it was particularly evil because they could see God and walk with Him. They were not tested like us who must have faith even though we cannot see and walk with God.

This sin was inspired by Satan.

Satan was created good, was originally named Lucifer, but became covetous of divinity…and sought to become a god. He and the angels who followed him were expelled from God’s presence.

There is since that time the presence of evil…a choice to deny God and go against His law. That is a choice that is found in one’s intellect and heart, not the DNA.

You can find families that are good people, but have one member who is a ‘black sheep’ and refuses to comply to what is good.

It gets down to free will and the intellect choosing good or evil…and this all happens in this life, not prior.
 
There can be no free will without an eternal identity.
Why? Is it not possible for an omnipotent God to create a being with free will who is then responsible for his own decisions and choices? Or do you not believe that God is omnipotent but rather dependent on co-eternal beings and matter in order to form the universe and all that is in it? Mormonism has completely gone off the rails in its basic theology; its understandng of the nature of God and his power, glory and majesty.
 
Se post #580. I said:

I was thinking of the parable of the sower. In that, there was a variety of seed and some grew and flourished and some did not. But the sower has to pick his seed from what’s available. If he could create the seed, he would create nothing but the best.
This has been explained by me and many others over and over again. I am having great difficulty understanding how you can miss the point of the parable. It says nothing about bad seed or good seed, but rather it speaks of the soil in which the seed is planted (our faith). Why can you not grasp this? Please quote the verse that speaks of good seed or bad seed.

This again is a demonstration of your belief in a God who is very limited in his power. “If he could create the seed…”? Do you believe that God is not capable of creating the seed? Do you not see that your preconceived notion of pre-mortal existence influences your perception so much that you cannot even read or understand the plain language of this parable? Again, please quote the words in this parable that speak of good or bad seed, and if you cannot, then please ask yourself why you believe it does speak of good and bad seed, or as you say, a variety of seeds. One more time, it was not the quality of the seeds that determined whether they grew or flourished, but rather the quality of the soil in which they were planted. If our faith is shallow our spiritual life will die or be choked to death by the weeds that surround us.
 
KathleenGee, merely stating something doesn’t make it true.

And if DNA made Peter James & John saints and apostles while Hitler and Stalin were made psychopathic mass murders by their DNA, who is to hold them to blame? They have no control over their DNA.

There can be no free will without an eternal identity.
Cain and Abel had the exact same DNA from the very first human beings, Adam & Eve. How do you explain one being so evil and the other so good? Did God make a mistake by choosing to give an “evil intelligence” to Cain and a “good intelligence” to Abel? Was God responsible for causing Cain to murder Abel by doing that? Or, did God create them both equally good when they were born, but Cain chose to follow the path of evil, instead of good? Since God always knows who will be evil and who will be good, is it His fault for sending evil “spirit children” into the world? If they were already evil in the “preexistence”, wouldn’t He have cast them out of Heaven along with Lucifer, and never given them a body in the first place? Is God somehow at fault for not recognizing that people like Stalin and Hitler would turn out to be even more evil than Cain, in this life?

Your false concept of creation can also be twisted into blaming God for all the evil in this world, too. Having free will, or “free agency”, always makes it our own responsibility for whatever we choose to do, or believe, in this life. You have the free will to choose to follow good or evil in your own life. It’s always been your own choice. God will judge us all on the choices we make for ourselves. That’s why it’s so important for us to find the real truth that comes from God, and not be fooled into following the false doctrines that are made up by evil men. Jesus taught us the right way to live and follow Him. Anyone that claims that He fell short in His mission in any way, and poorly chose Apostles and followers that would ultimately fail to continue to follow Him, is evil. He sent them the Holy Spirit to ensure that they would never stray from the true path. But, you have the right to choose to believe that they did. So, you have to choose wisely in this life, because you won’t get a second chance to choose, after you pass over the veil.
 
If God is picking good seed…then the seed…through free will…made good choices…and implies the seed exists before God.

Again, Mormonism atleast sees man separate from God in man’s essence…man in Mormonism…shares in the same substance of God…eternal immortality…is inherently good and thus can only go to celestial paradise…so no need for hell except for ex-mormons.

Why even bother with God?
 
Free will isn’t something you hold in your hand, nor is it something you can either give or take. It’s a condition of existence–it’s you making choices. Having choices and making choices exerts your free will.

Some of your choices are made by your spirit–your conscious part. If God made that, then He controls it. If He didn’t make it then it was eternal and always existed.

We have dispositions, dictated by our soul, the union of our bodies and spirit. We make choices based on our soul’s inclination. That’s free will.
 
Telstar, I’m sorry but your post is a bit off the mark. Good and evil intellegences? Never heard of such a thing. Cain & Abel with the same DNA? As for the point you try in your second paragraph, I don’t see how you established it? Did you?

Maybe it would help more if I tried it in more Catholic terms? Free will, individual free will, is eternal and it varies from individual to individual. When God created us, He did not change it but granted our free will to us as it had always existed.

I’m guessing that doesn’t help but I tried anyway.
 
‘If God didn’t make something, then it was always eternal…’ Doesn’t make sense.

God did indeed give us a free will. He did not want human beings to be puppets…Didn’t Christ Himself, Who could have saved Himself…prayed for God’s will to be done?..’

If God didn’t make something, well, then it never existed in the first place.

If something exists outside of God and independent of Him…then this idea is approaching some for of polytheism.

I would advise you to atleast get the first book on St. Thomas’ “Summa Theologicae”, on ‘God’. It is difficult but well worth reading.
 
Free will isn’t something you hold in your hand, nor is it something you can either give or take. It’s a condition of existence–it’s you making choices. Having choices and making choices exerts your free will.

Some of your choices are made by your spirit–your conscious part. If God made that, then He controls it. If He didn’t make it then it was eternal and always existed.

We have dispositions, dictated by our soul, the union of our bodies and spirit. We make choices based on our soul’s inclination. That’s free will.
Free will is the ability to choose. Catholics do not believe we are robots. I guess you believe Mormons are robots

strange
 
Free will isn’t something you hold in your hand, nor is it something you can either give or take. It’s a condition of existence–it’s you making choices. Having choices and making choices exerts your free will.

Some of your choices are made by your spirit–your conscious part. If God made that, then He controls it. If He didn’t make it then it was eternal and always existed.

We have dispositions, dictated by our soul, the union of our bodies and spirit. We make choices based on our soul’s inclination. That’s free will.
**"Some of your choices are made by your spirit–your conscious part. If God made that, then He controls it. If He didn’t make it then it was eternal and always existed.

We have dispositions, dictated by our soul, the union of our bodies and spirit. We make choices based on our soul’s inclination. That’s free will."**

So if you are an evil person that is God’s fault? He somehow made an imperfect soul?

Are you saying that Mormons don’t really have FREE WILL CHOICE? Are you saying that you are just a mere puppet and have no choice in what you do or say or how you live?

Because no matter how much you want to believe it; there is no pre-mortal existence, there is no spirit world for the pre-born, there is no marriage in heaven after death. You have, unfortunately, either been raised in or have somehow learned to believe in things that are absolutely wrong before God.

So for the sake of your soul I pray that you were born into Mormonism and that it was not a FREE WILL CHOICE on your part.
 
Free will isn’t something you hold in your hand, nor is it something you can either give or take. It’s a condition of existence–it’s you making choices. Having choices and making choices exerts your free will.

Some of your choices are made by your spirit–your conscious part. If God made that, then He controls it. If He didn’t make it then it was eternal and always existed.

We have dispositions, dictated by our soul, the union of our bodies and spirit. We make choices based on our soul’s inclination. That’s free will.
That is not free will. That is chaos. My “soul’s inclination” is not a moral principle, nor in itself an authentic basis for freedom. I will show this by explaining a little of what actual freedom is.

Let me give you an example of a time three years ago when I exercised my free will. I had recently moved to Florida in an apartment by a lake that has alligators in it. I still live there and they are pretty safe. They mainly just keep in the water and only attack people who make trouble for them, though one of them did show up once on my neighbor’s porch. Anyway, I was pushing my two-month-old daughter in a stroller by the lake and near an alligator swimming by the shore. I occurred to me that I could take my daughter, who was quite bite-size, and cast to the alligator who could gobble her up in moments. There was no external force preventing me from doing that, yet I was totally unable to do to. Why? For the same reason as anyone else: it is totally contrary to my moral nature to kill anyone, especially my child. In fact, it is so opposed to who and what I am that it was literally impossible for me to perform that heinous deed.

I contend that while it was literally impossible for me to toss my daughter to an alligator, while the only option that I was able to choose was to preserve her life, my unwillingness to slay her was purely free. The reason it was free is because it was the voluntary act of a rational being acting in a self-determined way. There was no constraining hand on me. The guiding principles that determined my choice came from my own nature – it is against my humanity and against reason to commit the murder I imagined. Thus it was an act of my own rational will, determining itself without coercion. That makes it a free act.

Now suppose the opposite occurred. Suppose in a moment of sociopathy I did the deed and tossed my infant to the gators. Would that be a free act in the same sense? It would still be an act of my will, for a choice would be involved in it, but it would not be an act that corresponded to the good of my own nature, which loves only the welfare of my children. Thus, there is a principle of my nature, internal to myself that would need to be resisted and opposed for me to have made that choice. Thus my action would not be determined by internal principles proper to myself, but the exact opposite, by violence against my own nature, so that the proper operations of my soul would be interrupted and impeded. This is not a description of freedom.

Now I’m in philosophical trouble. I am saying on one hand that there was a choice involved: I actually had the power to kill my daughter if I so chose. Yet my moral constitution made the opposite choice inevitable; I could never really have done it. That inability made me free. It was unforced and spontaneous, and it preserved my nature from violence. All the characteristics of freedom are here, but without the real possibility of me acting otherwise than I did.

The solution to this paradox relies on developing a more mature understanding of freedom than mere choice. In fact, there is nothing particularly free about choice as such. The real determinant of freedom is rational choice. Human beings exercise freedom my making decisions that are predicated on a real grasp of reality and a perception of authentic value. Everything else is not freedom. Everything else is destruction. “Choices based on our soul’s inclination” is a sub-human definition of freedom, because it can be said of animal. Dogs act out of inclination; it is action from reason that is authentically human, and spiritual.

When God acts on the human will he acts only in a creative manner, not by “force,” a term denoting violence, but by healing the soul from the violence done to it by sin, so that it becomes newly able to know truly and then act freely. Hence it is called “regeneration.” When that occurs, a person becomes the real author of his or her own moral acts, because the perfection of the moral faculties bring that person inevitably to choose only the good. This is why there is no contradiction in St. Thomas saying “God moves our free will,” since a will that is not moved by God is divorced from reason and thus deprived of freedom. If you think of the problem only in binary terms, that either God created everything and there is no freedom, or God did not and there is only freedom, you can never begin to consider the true, third option, that God is the source of freedom; the universality of his creative power does not destroy but rather ensures the human potential to realize freedom.

The traditional Mormon response to this account of freedom is to dismiss it prima facie. That is an easy response, because what I propose is intellectually harder to fathom than the agency/force antithesis that Mormonism assumes. But the presence of intellectual difficulty is not a reason to object. We accept this not because it is philosophically convenient, but because it honors God’s glory as universal cause while sustaining human freedom and accountability – two revealed truths we are not willing to compromise. God commands us to serve him “with all your mind,” (Matt 22:37 ) and so we approach problems like these not from a standpoint of skepticism, but of trust that prayer and contemplation can bring us to the intelligibility within even the toughest problems like this.
 
Going back to Genesis…when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they committed the first sin.

And it was particularly evil because they could see God and walk with Him. They were not tested like us who must have faith even though we cannot see and walk with God.

This sin was inspired by Satan.
You have to remember, KathleenGee, that in Mormon theology, Adam had to fall. It was in God’s plan for Adam and Eve to fall. According to LDS.org:
Adam and Eve were married in Eden (see History of the Church, 2:320). Lehi said of their circumstances that “they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin” (2 Ne. 2:23). He also stated, “If Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end” (2 Ne. 2:22).
Our Father in Heaven knew Adam and Eve would fall. In fact, the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that Adam “was made to open the way of the world” (Teachings, 12). Lehi tells us, “Adam fell that man might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Ne. 2:25). Modern scripture makes it clear that it was the will of the Father, as part of his plan, that Adam and Eve transgress and thus be moved out of Eden. 2 Satan thus unwittingly furthered the plan, “for he knew not the mind of God” (Moses 4:6).
 
Thanks, Soren for your outstanding post. God made us free in part because He wants us to freely choose and love Him…it also shows that we are called to develop our conscience for greater communion with God and our own lives.

How would you value the love of another person towards you if it was feigned or force? You could not trust them.

Thanks for the other two references in regards to Mormon thought and use of words…
 
It irks me somewhat when you guys say “Mormons believe this…” or “Mormoms believe that…!” SO just to be sure there’s no misunderstanding, let me quote from the Book of Abraham:

*22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.*
 
Mcmullan;
Do you believe that all humans have premortally created souls, or do you believe that some or many do not? If you believe the second statement, that implies, according to LDS-type thinking that some people are born inferior. Perhaps fated to reject Mormonism. Or perhaps mentally deficient. God does not make bad seed is your contention.

However, “seed,” as used in the Book of Mormon, refers to descendants of this or that person.

Your contention that some come from idiomsandexpressions.com/category/keywords/bad-seed has some frightening implications, and that is not Mormonism.
 
It irks me somewhat when you guys say “Mormons believe this…” or “Mormoms believe that…!” SO just to be sure there’s no misunderstanding, let me quote from the Book of Abraham:

*22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.*
These quotes are from a made up fictional book. This is not scripture in the true sense of the Christianity.
 
It irks me somewhat when you guys say “Mormons believe this…” or “Mormoms believe that…!”

That’s ok. It irks me when Mormons deny beliefs that I know they have. I just want some honesty.

By the way, you were given free will to be irked…

.
 
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