Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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I think Mormonism would do better if it just left the Bible and Christianity be.

You can’t combine the two…it is like continuing to do a juggling act…
 
KathleenGee said:
I think Mormonism would do better if it just left the Bible and Christianity be.

You can’t combine the two…it is like continuing to do a juggling act…
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The LDS belief in polytheism, alone, is enough to completely separate Mormonism from Christianity.
 
1voice said:
The LDS belief in polytheism, alone, is enough to completely separate Mormonism from Christianity.
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You have to realize that Mormons of today have to pick and choose which doctrines to support. Otherwise, they would be so burdened by conflicting and inconsistent beliefs that they couldn’t cope with day-to-day life. Some do not practice or claim those polytheistic beliefs. There is no such thing as an orthodox Mormon.

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/i...cBRcc9A8FBio-fPKClhHgMa-n07FQ5paXi6_ooi5NA-xM
 
SteveVH said:
My question is this. Where in biblical Scripture is there any evidence of this? The best I can find are verses such as “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer 1:5). It does not appear though, that this conveyed the meaning held by the LDS Church to anyone but the LDS, rather it is interpreted by most Christians to mean that God is omniscient, or “all knowing”.
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There would be no point to the scripture you quoted if it were not talking about the pre-existence. Why would God ordain someone who didn’t exist?

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” (Eccles. 12:7) If our spirit returns to God when we die we must have been with him once before, for how can we return to a place where we have not been?
 
Originally Posted by 1voice
The LDS belief in polytheism, alone, is enough to completely separate Mormonism from Christianity.
Jerusha said:
You have to realize that Mormons of today have to pick and choose which doctrines to support. Otherwise, they would be so burdened by conflicting and inconsistent beliefs that they couldn’t cope with day-to-day life. Some do not practice or claim those polytheistic beliefs. There is no such thing as an orthodox Mormon.
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I thought that the entire focus of a good Mormon was/is to become a god… and that God the father has a father.
 
mtolympus said:
There would be no point to the scripture you quoted if it were not talking about the pre-existence. Why would God ordain someone who didn’t exist?
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“before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer 1:5).
God said that he ordained Jeremiah before he came out of the womb … not before he entered it.
God knew every detail of the universe before he created it. Architects and engineers know their creation intimately … before it is created. All of the above examples ‘pre-existed’ in the mind and heart of the creator.

To assume that we are not spirits, with a beginning, created by God … negates these Bible verses:

in the book of revelation where Jesus clearly states: ‘I am the beginning’ …

and again in Col 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

And… John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” (Eccles. 12:7) If our spirit returns to God when we die we must have been with him once before, for how can we return to a place where we have not been?
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Everything comes from the heart and mind of God… It did not have to pre-exist in order to exist now… as in the examples above. The apple that forms on the tree 5 years from now “pre-exists” only in the genetic makeup of the tree. The apple does not have to “be” now in order to “be” in the future.
The Bible states clearly that God the Father is Spirit. The spirit of man is fore-known because it is part of God’s genetic makeup … and designed, in advance, for a specific purpose. Once that purpose is accomplished the created spirit returns to the Creator.
 
mtolympus said:
There would be no point to the scripture you quoted if it were not talking about the pre-existence. Why would God ordain someone who didn’t exist?

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” (Eccles. 12:7) If our spirit returns to God when we die we must have been with him once before, for how can we return to a place where we have not been?
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Because God does not live in time, but rather eternity. All of time and history unfolds at once before him. It is always NOW. There is no past or future. I realize that Mormons have no concept of eternity in relationship to time (at least I have never found one that did), but it is true, nevertheless.

As for the spirit returning to God, that is because it came from God when he “breathed” it into us. It does not mean that we were an autonomous being prior to becoming human.

The very idea that there could be anything but God that has existed from eternity flies in the face of rational thought, not to mention revealed truth. Please give me just one example of anything that exists that does not have a cause for its existence? This is something even the limited human mind can perceive in creation. Everything has a cause except for the uncaused cause who is the eternal God.
 
Originally Posted by rmcmullan
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I was thinking of the parable of the sower. In that, there was a variety of seed and some grew and flourished and some did not. But the sower has to pick his seed from what’s available. If he could create the seed, he would create nothing but the best.
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Originally posted by SteveVH
This has been explained by me and many others over and over again. I am having great difficulty understanding how you can miss the point of the parable. It says nothing about bad seed or good seed, but rather it speaks of the soil in which the seed is planted (our faith). Why can you not grasp this? Please quote the verse that speaks of good seed or bad seed.
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This again is a demonstration of your belief in a God who is very limited in his power. “If he could create the seed…”? Do you believe that God is not capable of creating the seed? Do you not see that your preconceived notion of pre-mortal existence influences your perception so much that you cannot even read or understand the plain language of this parable? Again, please quote the words in this parable that speak of good or bad seed, and if you cannot, then please ask yourself why you believe it does speak of good and bad seed, or as you say, a variety of seeds. One more time, it was not the quality of the seeds that determined whether they grew or flourished, but rather the quality of the soil in which they were planted. If our faith is shallow our spiritual life will die or be choked to death by the weeds that surround us.
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Is there a reason you will not respond to my post and answer the questions I asked?
 
1voice said:
Originally Posted by 1voice
The LDS belief in polytheism, alone, is enough to completely separate Mormonism from Christianity.

I thought that the entire focus of a good Mormon was/is to become a god… and that God the father has a father.
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Some deny that and do not live it. They call themselves New Order Mormons, and have their own corner of the internet. Call it cafeteria Mormonism. They are not as persistently evangelical as the ones you see here.
 
SteveVH said:
Is there a reason you will not respond to my post and answer the questions I asked?
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McMullen:
Please respond to our questions about your interpretation of the sewer and the seed. No evasions, just a clarification.
 
I went to my bank that is close to the LDS store where I came across Pratt and McConkie’s anti-Catholic materials about in 2005.

Now they have a book in the front window…that looks similar to a Catholic catechism…and its title is “LDS Beliefs”. However experience of those who have engaged with Mormons for set beliefs find themselves in the hallway of mirrors where they come out not experiencing any set beliefs…

.I think they are referring to the ideas Mormons claim that are combined with Mormonism and Scripture.
 
mtolympus said:
There would be no point to the scripture you quoted if it were not talking about the pre-existence. Why would God ordain someone who didn’t exist?

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” (Eccles. 12:7) If our spirit returns to God when we die we must have been with him once before, for how can we return to a place where we have not been?
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Silly question. Before my son was in the womb, I named him. Before my son was in the womb, I bought him some gifts.

Does that mean there was a pre-existence? nope. I just knew and planned.
 
About the part that we return to God…with the coming of Christ…it can mean that we are in God’s hands…and He places us for our due reward.

You cannot making sweeping statements about what the Old Testament means without Christ…the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, through hermaneutics, gave new light and fulfilled meaning on sayings in the Old Testament that were not fully understood or were vague and incomplete.

The summation of the Bible is Jesus Christ, the Eternal Word.

Catholic belief is that it is through Jesus the Heavenly Father spoke the Word and the universe was made, coming to fulfillment at the Incarnation when Jesus became man through the Holy Spirit and the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is through Jesus Christ that creation is being renewed and restored.

So you can’t just say…well when I die, I return to God…you have to take that in context of the Word of God…Jesus Christ…and He said…I was hungry…did you feed me…clothe me, visit me?..we are all interconnected to each other. Our salvation is based on how we treat God in our neighbor.

That is also why it is not of truth to say all doctrines were corrupt at the time of Joseph Smith…this is defying the Apostles/Nicene Creed upon which all doctrines regarding the truth of Jesus Christ are built.
 
rmcmullan said:
Telstar, I’m sorry but your post is a bit off the mark. Good and evil intellegences? Never heard of such a thing.
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If free will is eternal then the intelligences that God used when He created spirit bodies/children had free will and were inclined to use their free will for good or bad. Unless you think that “gaining a body” corrupts these amalgamations of intelligence and spirit body.
rmcmullan said:
Maybe it would help more if I tried it in more Catholic terms? Free will, individual free will, is eternal and it varies from individual to individual. When God created us, He did not change it but granted our free will to us as it had always existed.

I’m guessing that doesn’t help but I tried anyway.
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Lds.org says defines agency thus "Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves. " it says nothing about it being eternal or that it varies from individual to individual, but it does say He gave it to us. How can one person be less able to choose for themselves and another be more able to choose for themselves? And who weighs in on the choices of those with a pittance of ability to choose, God, Satan, sometimes one, sometimes the other? How can a person be kinda sorta able to choose for themselves?

Free will is the ability to choose and act for ourselves, like LDS we believe God gave us that ability.

More on agency being given to us from LDS sources:
L. Lionel Kendrick, Ensign, Mar. 1996, 28–32
Modern revelation makes it clear that agency is a gift from our Heavenly Father
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Howard W. Hunter, Ensign, Nov. 1989, 17–18
We are given the knowledge, the help, the enticement, and** the freedom to choose**
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And this which really seems to say that agency or freedom to choose is not eternal at all
“The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency”(Moses 7:32).
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SteveVH, I’ve been through that parable a few times. You entirely missed the mark. If after all the responses and detailed explanations I gave you still don’t get it, there’s not much point in pursuing it. That’s why I don’t respond. If there’s some common ground, we can have a discussion but I don’t see any.
 
Zaffiroborant, I’m glad to see you are visiting lds.org. Hopefully you’re there in an earnest search for truth and understanding and not just to pick out one-liners to be contradictory.

I keep trying to explain this thing and you keep resisting understanding. I think in your hearts, you all pretty much do believe in a pre-existence and want to believe it but your church won’t let you. You want me to give you permission to believe that but you know I can’t do that. You have to do it for yourself.
 
rmcmullan said:
Zaffiroborant, I’m glad to see you are visiting lds.org. Hopefully you’re there in an earnest search for truth and understanding and not just to pick out one-liners to be contradictory.

I keep trying to explain this thing and you keep resisting understanding. I think in your hearts, you all pretty much do believe in a pre-existence and want to believe it but your church won’t let you. You want me to give you permission to believe that but you know I can’t do that. You have to do it for yourself.
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:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
 
Obviously,McMullen is even splintering from himself. :sad_yes: This is what happens when people believe (or pretend to believe) in mutually conflicting teachings. Cognitive dissonance at its peak.
 
rmcmullan said:
SteveVH, I’ve been through that parable a few times. You entirely missed the mark. If after all the responses and detailed explanations I gave you still don’t get it, there’s not much point in pursuing it. That’s why I don’t respond. If there’s some common ground, we can have a discussion but I don’t see any.
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lol…the problem is, like Joseph, you twist a parable to make an invalid point then get upset that we do not play along
 
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