Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[SteveVH]

That makes a lot more sense to me than God creating people He has no idea how they’ll turn out or keeps on creating them even though they’re up to a lot of mischief and out of His control. So the concept of the pre-existence is fundamental to the very purpose of our earthly life.

I have given up on you actually answering the questions I posed concerning the parable of the Sower and so will have to assume that you are not able. The above statement, however, speaks volumes of your understanding anything about the revealed nature of God. I started this thread because I believed that this fundamental Mormon belief influenced all subsequent Mormon beliefs concerning both the nature of God and man and is the primary reason that we always seem to speak past each other on various issues. You have confirmed my belief that this is indeed the case. I am convinced that the Mormon concept of the nature of God and man is flawed in its very origins because it is grounded in the imagination of man and not in the revealed truth of God. So the fundamental question of whether or not there is any Scriptural evidence of pre-mortal existence has been answered. You must rely on man-made “scriptures”, “another gospel” of which we have been warned against accepting, even if given to us by an angel.
And you wonder why you are not consider “Christian” by the rest of the Christian community. I am adding you and all Mormons to my daily prayers, that God will penetrate your heart and bring you out of darkness to the light of His truth. You are good people who have been terribly misled.

 

[theidler]

Okay, Telstar, we’re down to the nature vs. nuture argument?

Take another look at the quote I made from the Book of Abraham. The intelligences are not either good nor evil. And the ones that are enjoying earth life are the ones who “signed up”. I included that quote just for you and Miriam1947 and you missed the part about the first and second estate. By keeping your first estate, you come to earth. By maintaining your integrity here, you keep your second estate. This earth is a proving ground for the spirits.

That makes a lot more sense to me than God creating people He has no idea how they’ll turn out or keeps on creating them even though they’re up to a lot of mischief and out of His control. So the concept of the pre-existence is fundamental to the very purpose of our earthly life.

The Book of Abraham? You mean the Egyptian funeral papyri that was shown to be a complete and utter hoax?

 

[rmcmullan]

That makes a lot more sense to me than God creating people He has no idea how they’ll turn out or keeps on creating them even though they’re up to a lot of mischief and out of His control. So the concept of the pre-existence is fundamental to the very purpose of our earthly life.

I thought we’ve been through this? This is my understanding of the Catholic doctrine. If it is not this, then what? I keep asking and asking until I sound like SteveVH hung up on the parable of the sower.

I know when this happens, it’s usually because there’s an answer given and then rejected. We’ve been over the DNA argument and the original sin argument and so far, I don’t see you scoring any points with either. They might be perfectly satisfactory to you. And it’s not your job to make them appeal to me. What I’m saying is that neither stand up to reason. I know this is a long post but please, don’t bring up the same points that were previously discussed, take a little time and read the older ones.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I thought we’ve been through this? This is my understanding of the Catholic doctrine. If it is not this, then what? I keep asking and asking until I sound like SteveVH hung up on the parable of the sower.

I know when this happens, it’s usually because there’s an answer given and then rejected. We’ve been over the DNA argument and the original sin argument and so far, I don’t see you scoring any points with either. They might be perfectly satisfactory to you. And it’s not your job to make them appeal to me. What I’m saying is that neither stand up to reason. I know this is a long post but please, don’t bring up the same points that were previously discussed, take a little time and read the older ones.

A pre-existence is fundamental to what Mormons believe is the purpose of life.

From the Baltimore catechism:

Q: “Why did God make you?”

A: “God made me to know him, to love him, and to serve him in this world and to be happy with him forever in the next.”

A pre-existence is not fundamental to God’s love, or to our love for God.

Is this reasonable?

 

[Telstar]

That makes a lot more sense to me than God creating people He has no idea how they’ll turn out or keeps on creating them even though they’re up to a lot of mischief and out of His control. So the concept of the pre-existence is fundamental to the very purpose of our earthly life.

When you first posted this (along with other points), I replied with a very detailed response that included an analysis of your “book of Abraham” quote that you told me to “Take another look…” at. But, now you’re completely ignoring that post to make this same absurd statement, over again. Why didn’t you respond to any of what I said in my post, as well as all of the rest of the posts that commented on your abysmal understanding and twisted view of what Catholic teaching must mean, instead of accusing everyone here of not answering you? Your statement has nothing to do with what Catholics believe, and it certainly wasn’t a question. It just seems to be your personal assessment of the implications and meaning of God creating us from nothing. It’s an egregious insult to God’s integrity. That’s why you got the responses that you did, because no Catholic that has any understanding of their faith would ever look at creation in that way, at all. Here is my earlier response to your statement, in case you missed it:

Wow… Do you really believe that just because He created us from nothing and gives us free will to choose our own path, that God has no idea, and really doesn’t care about how we’ll turn out? Do you honestly think He completely ignores us once He creates us? Don’t you think He still listens to our every prayer, and waits for us to approach Him with our imperfect love, so He can return it with His perfect love, and continue to love us with all His heart, even when we hurt Him with our sins? Why do you think He sent His Only Son to reconcile us to Him, so we can more easily find our way back to love Him more than ever?

I thought we’ve been through this? This is my understanding of the Catholic doctrine. If it is not this, then what? I keep asking and asking until I sound like SteveVH hung up on the parable of the sower.

I know when this happens, it’s usually because there’s an answer given and then rejected. We’ve been over the DNA argument and the original sin argument and so far, I don’t see you scoring any points with either. They might be perfectly satisfactory to you. And it’s not your job to make them appeal to me. What I’m saying is that neither stand up to reason. I know this is a long post but please, don’t bring up the same points that were previously discussed, take a little time and read the older ones.

This is from the official Catechism on the Vatican website:
"The Holy See Catechism of the Catholic Church

PROLOGUE

*"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, **the only true God**, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS. *

**
I. THE LIFE OF MAN - TO KNOW AND LOVE GOD**

1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.
**
2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, *teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."4* Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."5

3 Those who with God’s help have welcomed Christ’s call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ’s faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer.6" As you can see, our sole purpose is to know and love God. That’s why He created us. He wants to share His immense love with all of us, and wants us to spend all of eternity enjoying His company while He enjoys ours, as one huge happy family. We didn’t exist, but God had so much love that He created us, just to share it with Him.

 

[rmcmullan]

Nice words but I don’t see how this changes anything. They are words mostly aimed at the faithful and doesn’t really account much for the lost.

Telstar, please: if God created us and cares deeply how we turn out, why didn’t he create us better? Is He unwilling or unable?

That is the question I don’t see answered after 45 pages of discussion.

 

[Nicea325]

Nice words but I don’t see how this changes anything. They are words mostly aimed at the faithful and doesn’t really account much for the lost.

Telstar, please: if God created us and cares deeply how we turn out, why didn’t he create us better? Is He unwilling or unable?

That is the question I don’t see answered after 45 pages of discussion.

Create us better? You were given the gift of free-will how much better do you want to be? Are not the angels much more intelligent than us humans? Did not some rebel against God? What? Did God do a poor job of creating angels and humans?

 

[KathleenGee]

God didn’'t create puppets. Looking around this world, there are all kinds of people doing all sorts of things…He certainly made us free.

Consider the Book of Wisdom, 8:17 as I had addressed here previously…Wisdom being the highest and most prominent gifts of the Holy Spirit…of one substance with God the Father…‘For not without means was Your mighty hand, that had fashioned the universe from formless matter…22,Indeed before you the whole universe is as a grain from a balance.’…

To Acts 17…St. Paul in Aeropagus, Greece…in response to the prolifteration of public shrines of idols, 17:24: 'The God Who made the world and all is in it, The Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in sanctuaries made by human hand, nor is he served by anything. Rather it is he who gives to everyone life and breath and everything. He made from one the whole of human race to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the ordered seasons and the boundaries of their regions, so that people might seek God, even perhaps grope for Him and find Him, though indeed He is not far from any one of us. For in Him we live and move and have our being,… 29: ‘Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver or stone by human art and imagination. God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now that he demands that all people everywhere repent because he has established a day upon which He will ‘judge the world with justice’ through a man He has appointed, and He has provided confirmation for all by raising Him from the dead.’

St. Paul spoke in Romans how every person can discern a creator just through nature alone.

But here in Acts St. Paul alludes to Adam as the beginning of the human race, not some premortal existence…eternal on par with God.

We have our beginning with Adam…and in this time of Lent…we return to dust. But as said Christ who was risen from the dead…sufficient alone to not have any mortal prophets following Him giving us a new and contradictory story.

 

[rmcmullan]

Create us better? You were given the gift of free-will how much better do you want to be? Are not the angels much more intelligent than us humans? Did not some rebel against God? What? Did God do a poor job of creating angels and humans?

In Isaiah it says that when the Savior comes, the lion will lay down with the lamb. But right now all they do is kill each other. Same thing throughout the entire population of man and beast. So my guess is that He could give them better dispositions. But in the question that none of you can answer:

if God created us and cares deeply how we turn out, why didn’t he create us better? Is He unwilling or unable?

I think He’s unwilling. How about you guys, whaddya think?

Actually that’s not what I think, I think there’s a pre-existence.

 

[Telstar]

Nice words but I don’t see how this changes anything. They are words mostly aimed at the faithful and doesn’t really account much for the lost.

I posted it to show that your twisted view of the Catholic belief as to why God created us was wrong. All that follow Jesus Christ with love are the faithful. We know who they are by how much they really love God for Who He is, and not just for what they think He should give them for following laws made up by men, instead of those written in their hearts by God.

Telstar, please: if God created us and cares deeply how we turn out, why didn’t he create us better? Is He unwilling or unable? That is the question I don’t see answered after 45 pages of discussion.

He created Adam and Eve perfect, and only gave them one rule to follow; do not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He knew that if they ate it’s fruit, they would be made aware of what it meant to do evil. He tested their obedience to Him by letting them choose for themselves, whether they would love Him enough to completely trust Him, or if they would succumb to the promptings of the devil, that He allowed to tempt them. They chose not to trust in Him, and trusted in the lies of the devil, instead. It was their own free choice to make. He didn’t force them in any way, nor did He ‘set them up to fail’ as some people seem to think.

When He creates all of us, our souls are perfectly good, but we learn to do good or evil through the influence of people around us. If we’re surrounded by good people that truly love God, then we’ll have a much better chance to learn how to love God, and do good things because we love Him. But, if we’re surrounded by self centered, evil people, who love themselves and the things of this world more than God, then we’ll learn to follow their example. When we follow people that don’t love God, then we’re more likely to learn to make evil choices. That’s when we begin to live a life that’s devoid of God’s love because we choose to reject Him, and fail to return our love to Him.

All He ever really wants is for us to love Him. When we show our true love and devotion to Him, He will always shower us with His gifts. When we reject Him, He withdraws from us and waits for us to humbly call Him back. He will prompt us with callings, but He won’t intrude on us if we don’t want to accept His calls. It’s always our own choice whether we want to follow the path that leads to God’s love, or follow our own twisted path away from Him. But, the souls that end up in hell go there by their own choice, because they don’t want to love God for Who He is. They just want whatever they can get out of this life, on their own, without ever having to answer to God for anything they do.

 

[Nicea325]

In Isaiah it says that when the Savior comes, the lion will lay down with the lamb. But right now all they do is kill each other. Same thing throughout the entire population of man and beast. So my guess is that He could give them better dispositions. But in the question that none of you can answer:

if God created us and cares deeply how we turn out, why didn’t he create us better? Is He unwilling or unable?

I think He’s unwilling. How about you guys, whaddya think?

Actually that’s not what I think, I think there’s a pre-existence.

Your question was answered,so why am I repeating myself? As I said God gave us humans a gift called free-will as did the angels. We are also created in His image as scripture states,so again…did God do a bad job? You did not answer.

As for pre-existence? That is a false Mormon belief,because apparently Mormon theology does not understand God’s nature. ONLY God is eternal so how could you a FINITE creature have a pre-existence? Do understand the difference bewteen finite and infinite? According to your belief…you do not.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mr McMullen…

There are Dominican parishes in the Western USA that provide ongoing classes in theology and the nature of God…check them out…there is no room for Gnosticism or Pelagianism or conjecturing…

As St. Paul said, the Lord created this world with order, not speculation. Nothing can exist outside His will.

 

[RebeccaJ]

In Isaiah it says that when the Savior comes, the lion will lay down with the lamb. But right now all they do is kill each other. Same thing throughout the entire population of man and beast. So my guess is that He could give them better dispositions. But in the question that none of you can answer:

if God created us and cares deeply how we turn out, why didn’t he create us better? Is He unwilling or unable?

I think He’s unwilling. How about you guys, whaddya think?

Actually that’s not what I think, I think there’s a pre-existence.

It comes down to a difference of belief regarding the fall of Adam and Eve. In Genesis, God created the world and called it Good. Nothing God created is less than good. Because of the fall, we have a fallen nature. War and our propensity to sin are but two real evidences for this fact.

The Good News is Jesus Christ, who atoned for our sins, both personal and original. His is Risen, and we can rise with Him. As followers of Christ, we are called to be His hands and feet in the world, to live the reality of Christ Is King. When He comes again, His Kingdom will be perfected. Until then, we have the gift of free will, to use it for good, as Jesus taught, or not, as happens often.

Free will, as Catholics understand it is not given for us to choose evil, it is given us to choose good. Any choice we make that is not good, is an abuse of the gift God has given us. Of course, we are not perfect, and God knows this, and out of love God became Man, and dwelt among us. Lived, and died for our sin. We are perfected in and through Him. This most certainly is God’s good will towards us.

Beyond that, I think your line of questioning falls under, “Why does God allow suffering, sin, etc?” …if that is the case, the answer is, He gave us free will in order that we could love Him freely. God is not going to force anyone to love Him, as forced love, is not love at all.

1 John 4:16-21
We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him. In this is love brought to perfection among us, that we have confidence on the day of judgment because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother*

Hope that helps.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mr McMullen…

You will find pre mortal existence within Mormonism.

Premortal existence does not carry belief in Judeo Christianity. So you will find nothing in Scripture…properly understood…to prove or justify such a concept.

Over and over again, Judeo Christianity professes faith in God the Creator, and we His creatures given free will and intellect.

You say, well, He could have made us better…We have been given free will.

What you do not look at is the lives of the saints…who did make this world better, and lived most exemplary lives drawn from the life of grace united to Jesus Christ. Unfortuantely, the saints and religious are only looked at for baptizing them into a different belief system than finding out about who they truly were and the lives they lived.

Look to the lives of saints and religious…don’t think about baptizing them into Mormonism…instead look at them and see what comes from the live totally centered on the Son of Man…

 

[1voice]

That makes a lot more sense to me than God creating people He has no idea how they’ll turn out or keeps on creating them even though they’re up to a lot of mischief and out of His control. So the concept of the pre-existence is fundamental to the very purpose of our earthly life.

I thought we’ve been through this? This is my understanding of the Catholic doctrine. If it is not this, then what?

rmc,

Where, anywhere, does it state clearly, in the Bible, that pre existence exists?

Catholic/ Christian Doctrine says nothing about pre existence simply because nothing is said about it in the Bible.

The fact that people make bad choices does not mean that God is not in complete control… and it does not create a foundation for the idea that they were predisposed to bad/good behavior because they were that way in some pre existence.

Does the following verse require pre existence in order to be true?
Psalm 139: 16
in Your book were written all
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

The Bible clearly states that man is created with a free will. He gave Adam a choice. He gave Cain a choice. He gave the Israelites a choice after they were led out of Egypt… Joshua said “Choose whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Moses said it too. He clearly laid out the future. He said … If you choose wisely it will go well for you and your children. If you choose badly you will reap the consequences.
… Does any of this require pre existence in order to be completely true?

 

[ParkerD]

To the general reader,

I have noticed a few inconsistencies in some statements recently on this thread, so I thought it might be well for a reader to observe those.

The concept of “free will” is certainly an important concept, absolutely essential to understand for a diligent student of the Bible. Yet there are comments saying that “Mormons” (Latter-day Saints) should “leave the Bible alone”. Latter-day Saints have just as much right, just as valid a “free will”, to study the Bible and gain understanding from its wonderful pages, as anyone else in the world. It ought not be viewed as a book to be kept away from people.

There are comments saying that Latter-day Saints don’t have a “proper understanding” of the Bible and its several passages that show that there is a “choice” which can be made, if those several passages are examined carefully, to believe in a “pre-mortal existence”. Yet the choice that Latter-day Saints make to believe those passages as leaning toward there having been a pre-mortal existence, seems to be given no room for allowance–which is diametrically opposed to the idea of “free will” because it is saying “you don’t have free will to believe that.”

It reminds me of the gospel being taken by the apostles out into the world as Christ gave them commission to do, and yet when the Nicene council was convened and one group attested that Jesus is literally the Son of God and the other group attested that there could only be “one God” and thus came up with the “Nicene creed” and excluded the other group and said “conform or else lose membership with us”, they thus discarded their “free will” as not being permissible.

The idea of looking for “proof” of the correctness of there having been a “pre-mortal existence” by using the Bible to find that “proof”, shows a lack of consistency with the concept of “free will”. I believe God does indeed give “free will”, even to the extent of giving clues and hints but yet not forcing the issue by having allowed there to be “proof” that would reduce the allowance for the other point of view.

A student of the Bible can read Job 38:4-7 and read the words “all the sons of God shouted for joy”. Using that expression “sons of God” which appears many times in the Bible and is interchanged with words that are talking about human beings who have made covenants with God and are keeping those covenants, then that passage in Job can be understood, using “free will”, to mean that when the foundations of the earth were laid there was a group of “all the sons of God” who “shouted for joy”.

Others can certainly say, “it doesn’t mean that”, and they will have used their free will also.

So, free will is enhanced in how God has inspired the Bible to be written and prepared in a way that does not force our beliefs. It would seem wise to follow that example and not attempt to force anyone’s beliefs, but instead let them use their own best personal judgment and the insights they glean through their own personal study and prayer and communion with Almighty God.

A wish of peace to all readers.

 

[Jerusha]

You choose to believe what you choose to believe, we choose to believe what we believe. Even though we pray that you will come to believe what we believe, and you pray that we will come to believe what you believe, we all still have free will.

Which is better, :slapfight: or :hug1:?

 

[RebeccaJ]

A student of the Bible can read Job 38:4-7 and read the words “all the sons of God shouted for joy”. Using that expression “sons of God” which appears many times in the Bible and is interchanged with words that are talking about human beings who have made covenants with God and are keeping those covenants, then that passage in Job can be understood, using “free will”, to mean that when the foundations of the earth were laid there was a group of “all the sons of God” who “shouted for joy”.

In Job, Sons of God is referring to the angels, who rejoiced at God’s creation. Angels are a different creation, not humans, human spirits waiting to be born or the souls of human dead. They are another creation, created by God before the world.

You are confusing free will with truth. Each person does not make their own truth. Truth is the object by which we judge whether our free will is being used according to God’s will.

 

[KathleenGee]

Excellent point, Rebecca.

Parker, I find so many times Mormons coming to us saying the Scripture is saying this or that, but missing the obvious intent.

 

[Telstar]

To the general reader,

I have noticed a few inconsistencies in some statements recently on this thread, so I thought it might be well for a reader to observe those.

What inconsistencies?

The concept of “free will” is certainly an important concept, absolutely essential to understand for a diligent student of the Bible. Yet there are comments saying that “Mormons” (Latter-day Saints) should “leave the Bible alone”. Latter-day Saints have just as much right, just as valid a “free will”, to study the Bible and gain understanding from its wonderful pages, as anyone else in the world. It ought not be viewed as a book to be kept away from people.

You do have as much right to study the Bible as anyone else. The only problem with any individual studying the Bible is that their preconceived notions of what it teaches will affect their understanding. Peter warned us to beware of trying to make our own personal interpretations fit scripture, instead of understanding it’s true meaning as it was taught to the Apostles by Jesus.

There are comments saying that Latter-day Saints don’t have a “proper understanding” of the Bible and its several passages that show that there is a “choice” which can be made, if those several passages are examined carefully, to believe in a “pre-mortal existence”. Yet the choice that Latter-day Saints make to believe those passages as leaning toward there having been a pre-mortal existence, seems to be given no room for allowance–which is diametrically opposed to the idea of “free will” because it is saying “you don’t have free will to believe that.”

No one is saying you have no right to believe whatever you wish to believe. We’re just pointing out where your ideas are incorrect, and not consistent with what Jesus actually taught. You have a free will to choose to be right or wrong in your interpretations. That’s the purpose of free will. It’s our duty to God as Catholics to point out the errors of those that do not have a correct understanding of scripture, so they will know the real truth. But, they are always free to accept that truth or reject it.

It reminds me of the gospel being taken by the apostles out into the world as Christ gave them commission to do, and yet when the Nicene council was convened and one group attested that Jesus is literally the Son of God and the other group attested that there could only be “one God” and thus came up with the “Nicene creed” and excluded the other group and said “conform or else lose membership with us”, they thus discarded their “free will” as not being permissible.

This is a poor argument coming from a member of a church that did the same thing to those that wanted to follow the successor chosen by Joseph Smith, his son Joseph, instead of accepting and following Brigham Young as the new prophet. They basically said, “conform or else lose membership with us”. Now, there are many branches of LDS that all claim to be the correct followers of their faith. Who was responsible for taking away their “free will choice”?

The idea of looking for “proof” of the correctness of there having been a “pre-mortal existence” by using the Bible to find that “proof”, shows a lack of consistency with the concept of “free will”. I believe God does indeed give “free will”, even to the extent of giving clues and hints but yet not forcing the issue by having allowed there to be “proof” that would reduce the allowance for the other point of view.

As I said, you have every right to choose to be wrong if that’s what you want to be.

A student of the Bible can read Job 38:4-7 and read the words “all the sons of God shouted for joy”. Using that expression “sons of God” which appears many times in the Bible and is interchanged with words that are talking about human beings who have made covenants with God and are keeping those covenants, then that passage in Job can be understood, using “free will”, to mean that when the foundations of the earth were laid there was a group of “all the sons of God” who “shouted for joy”.

Others can certainly say, “it doesn’t mean that”, and they will have used their free will also.

You conveniently left out verses 1-3 in your choice to use as an example. Let’s see what they say:Job 38: [1] Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me.Basically, God is blasting Job for complaining about God’s actions. He asks him who he thinks he is that would dare to question what God does. Then he tells him to man-up and answer His rhetorical questions about where he was when God created the universe, and how much of it he witnessed. The only answer to all of God’s questions to him, is that Job didn’t even exist in the beginning of creation, and had nothing to do with any of it. God was telling him that he should learn to be more humble before God, because only He knows His real purpose for doing it all. The angels were also referred to as “sons of God” as Rebecca said.

So, free will is enhanced in how God has inspired the Bible to be written and prepared in a way that does not force our beliefs. It would seem wise to follow that example and not attempt to force anyone’s beliefs, but instead let them use their own best personal judgment and the insights they glean through their own personal study and prayer and communion with Almighty God.

A wish of peace to all readers.

No one should be forced to believe anything they really don’t want to believe. It’s our own choice to pick between right and wrong, but we should always be aware that God will judge us by all the choices that we make for ourselves.

Peace to you, Parker.