Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Where, in the Bible, does it literally state that there is pre mortal existence?

Job 38:1-8.

Parker,
If Job was a man… then, according to Mormon thought, he had a pre-mortal existence as a son of God… and he would have been foreknown, by God (according to Mormon thought) to be one of the best among the sons of God … as God described him to Satan in the story. Why then, would God ask where he was in verse 4 … clearly indicating that Job was not there (remember we are talking literally here) … and then, just 3 verses later, say that he was there (according to the Mormon definition of the sons of God) … in verse 7?

 

[ParkerD]

Your first paragraph does indeed point to posters who have specifically addressed LDS beliefs but, this still has nothing to do with your free will. You are still free to believe as you wish no matter what others say to you. Even imprisonment can not deprive you of your free will, Dallin Oaks clearly defines the difference between “agency” and “freedom” here:

Quote:
First, because free agency is a God-given precondition to the purpose of mortal life, no person or organization can take away our free agency in mortality.

Zaffiroborant,

I don’t know what “second paragraph” you were referring to in item two.

I don’t consider the use of the words “free agency” and “free will” as interchangeable expressions, so I suppose we differ on that.

The word “will” has a connotation of “faculty by which a person decides what to do”, “action from strong desire or intention”, “volition”.

When someone tries to influence another person’s “faculty of deciding what to do” through seeking to cause them to be fearful of some perceived or threatened consequence, through ridicule or scorn, or through many other means that are used, then although that other person can certainly (unless they are a dependent child or student) say, “what you have said is irrelevant to my decision about this,” and then for them!–but the intent of the first party was still there to influence a free will choice by some means that was intended to decrease the independent “faculty of deciding what to do” of the second person.

As to the comments about LDS missionaries and the Preach My Gospel manual or the Joseph Smith First Vision, then I think missionaries are taught to be respectful of others’ beliefs, and this is 2012 not 1820 when Jesus spoke to Joseph Smith about the ministers of religion in the area where he lived.

 

[ParkerD]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Where, in the Bible, does it literally state that there is pre mortal existence?

Parker,
If Job was a man… then, according to Mormon thought, he had a pre-mortal existence as a son of God… and he would have been foreknown, by God (according to Mormon thought) to be one of the best among the sons of God … as God described him to Satan in the story. Why then, would God ask where he was in verse 4 … clearly indicating that Job was not there (remember we are talking literally here) … and then, just 3 verses later, say that he was there (according to the Mormon definition of the sons of God) … in verse 7?

1voice,

Whether Job was a part of the group who were “all the sons of God” who “shouted for joy” is neither stated nor implied one way or the other.

The scripture states clearly that when the foundations of the earth were laid, there were “sons of God” who “shouted for joy.” That means before mortal life on this earth began, there was an existing condition for a group identified as the “sons of God”. They pre-existed the mortal earth experience, since earth was just barely being “founded” or “formed” as described in Job 38.

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Where, in the Bible, does it literally state that there is pre mortal existence?

Job 38:1-8.

Parker,
If, according to Mormon thought. Job was on the path to being a son of God … but not among them … then (literally speaking) why would God ask where he was … if he was a pre mortal during the time that God was referring to?

 

[1voice]

1voice,

Whether Job was a part of the group who were “all the sons of God” who “shouted for joy” is neither stated nor implied one way or the other.

The scripture states clearly that when the foundations of the earth were laid, there were “sons of God” who “shouted for joy.” That means before mortal life on this earth began, there was an existing condition for a group identified as the “sons of God”. They pre-existed the mortal earth experience, since earth was just barely being “founded” or “formed” as described in Job 38.

How does the fact that those Sons of God (and Angels as well) existed at that time prove the assumption that there are pre mortals as described in Mormon thought … and that pre mortals go through the process described in Mormon thought?

 

[ParkerD]

…
Parker,
If, according to Mormon thought. Job was on the path to being a son of God … but not among them … then (literally speaking) why would God ask where he was … if he was a pre mortal during the time that God was referring to?

1voice,

Supposing that Job were to have answered “I hope I was among those sons of God who shouted for joy”. He could have, and the passage would still make sense. The words “declare, if thou hast understanding” would be “putting Job in his place”, so to speak. Job wasn’t really given an opportunity to answer the questions that came to him from God, so I don’t think the implication should be made as to whether Job was among the “sons of God” described in verse 7, or not.

As far as my statement that the Bible literally supports LDS beliefs, this example supports “pre-mortal existence” of “sons of God”.

 

[ParkerD]

How does the fact that those Sons of God (and Angels as well) existed at that time prove the assumption that there are pre mortals as described in Mormon thought … and that pre mortals go through the process described in Mormon thought?

1voice,

It doesn’t, and I hadn’t said that it did. It does, however, clearly point out a “pre-mortal existence” that occurred with “sons of God” at the same point in time that the foundations of the earth were laid.

Also, a person can pray to God and have a conversation just like Job had a conversation with God, by means of the Holy Spirit communicating through what Elijah described as a “still small voice”, and they can find out more about who the “sons of God” who “shouted for joy” were by praying sincerely about that, student to Master Teacher, and then pondering deeply about it for a period of time (perhaps days of thinking about it and praying more about it), with a heart-felt open-ended prayer, and get an answer, God willing.

 

[1voice]

1voice,

Supposing that Job were to have answered “I hope I was among those sons of God who shouted for joy”. He could have, and the passage would still make sense. The words “declare, if thou hast understanding” would be “putting Job in his place”, so to speak. Job wasn’t really given an opportunity to answer the questions that came to him from God, so I don’t think the implication should be made as to whether Job was among the “sons of God” described in verse 7, or not.

As far as my statement that the Bible literally supports LDS beliefs, this example supports “pre-mortal existence” of “sons of God”.

Parker,
The pre existence of living beings/ Angels and these Sons of God as described in Job … that dwell in the presence of God, is not in question.
The sons of God, as described in Mormon terms, however, are specifically those that were pre mortal, became men, lived, died and are now (if they completed all that was required) sons of God.
The topic of discussion is specifically related to man’s pre mortal existence … not that of other beings… or other levels of achievement.
How does the passage in Job prove the pre mortal existence of man before he chooses to enter the physical realm … as described in Mormon thought.

 

[Telstar]

Lori (Telstar),

(1) The Savior was warning the Pharisees against the hypocrisy of showing a pretense of “righteousness” and yet not being influenced at all by the Holy Spirit because of their inward unrighteousness, and against the hypocrisy of using religion to obligate people and make them feel like a “debtor” while having the double hypocrisy of ignoring the poor and the needy. He knew their hearts, and could speak with singular authority because as the Son of God, with perfect knowledge of men’s hearts, He could identify what was in their heart.

Jesus was telling them that their interpretations of the Law were wrong, and they didn’t even practice what they preached. They held everyone else up for scrutiny, and prejudged them by a different standard than they held for themselves. They were arrogant and self-righteous, and wanted everyone to think they were doing the will of God, perfectly, but Jesus told them exactly what they were really doing. They didn’t like it because it embarrassed them in front of the people that they were always trying to impress with their false piety. Their actions were all done out of their own selfishness and greed. They were more interested in the power and glory of their positions in the community, than they were in loving or glorifying God. My point was that Jesus didn’t hold back the truth to keep from hurting their “feelings”, because He was more interested in showing them the state of their own souls, and warn them about where they were heading if they didn’t change their ways.

Christians should practice the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount in all their doings, period. They should not think they know the heart of anyone other than their own heart, just because they are a Christian. But they also ought to be very careful about mixing money and religion, about how they treat the poor, and about making sure their inner heart matches their outward “appearance” if they would live by the teachings of Jesus–including how they treat the “stranger”.

No one here is judging anyone’s heart. We’re discussing errors in doctrinal beliefs, not questioning any individual’s sincerity in believing them, or their right to do so.

(2) My comment dealt with the “how” of disagreeing with particular doctrinal questions–not with correcting a child who has a wrong answer on a test. Talking about “free will” and then using particular statements that are deliberately disrespectful show a disconnect with the idea of “free will”.

Showing respect, or disrespect, for any particular doctrine or belief has absolutely no effect on anyone’s free will to believe whatever they choose to believe.

If one makes a continuum where on the left one places the heading, “forced will”, and on the right one places the heading, “free will”, then making statements that are disrespectful are far to the left of center, because they are trying to “force” someone’s decision about religion.

As I said, ‘respect’ has nothing to do with free will, and doesn’t affect it in any way. I don’t know why you would think it does, because they’re completely unrelated. And, no one here is trying to force anyone to believe anything they don’t want to believe. We’re just discussing a subject in relation to our perspective religions, that each happen to have a different view of it.

Fear factor? What kind of “fear factor” are you referring to?

(4) Latter-day Saint teachings are more closely aligned with the Bible in every respect than any religion I have encountered through either reading or personal experience with people. There is no conflict to sort out.

Perhaps this would be a good subject for a different thread, instead of hijacking this one.

(5) It would not be “prophetic” to someone for whom the word prophecy has to do strictly with foretelling the future. It is “prophetic” to parents who want insight and guidance in raising their children in righteousness and peace. Note that the Savior was fine with speaking in the present tense about “prophets”, as was Peter, as was Luke, so the expectation that there should be “prophets” among Christian believers, ought not grab anyone by surprise who is familiar with either the Old or the New Testament.

Jesus is the only prophet that anyone needs to follow to find God, or to lead a good life in God’s eyes. He is the Alpha and the Omega, and already taught us everything we really need to know.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,
The pre existence of living beings/ Angels and these Sons of God as described in Job … that dwell in the presence of God, is not in question.
The sons of God, as described in Mormon terms, however, are specifically those that were pre mortal, became men, lived, died and are now (if they completed all that was required) sons of God.
The topic of discussion is specifically related to man’s pre mortal existence … not that of other beings… or other levels of achievement.
How does the passage in Job prove the pre mortal existence of man before he chooses to enter the physical realm … as described in Mormon thought.

1voice,
I already noted that it doesn’t. I also noted that a person clearly, from the teachings of the Bible, has the opportunity to pray about an answer to the question of who were the “sons of God” described in Job 38.

If a person is going to be sincere in praying about that question, then presumably they will have been sincere enough to try and find other passages that talk about “sons of God”, and presumably they will have been sincere enough to try and find other passages that talk about the goings on in “heaven” during the time when the “foundations of the earth were laid” and during the time when “mortal life” on earth began.

 

[1voice]

1voice,
Job wasn’t really given an opportunity to answer the questions that came to him from God

… but Job was given an opportunity …and did answer:
“Lord, how can I answer You? I’m vile and evil and have no right to question you because I have nothing to say and am ashamed.”

so I don’t think the implication should be made as to whether Job was among the “sons of God” described in verse 7, or not.

You are saying that the question was not specifically addressed/ answered by Job and so there is no proof that Job was not among the sons of God… I submit, based on your logic, that the opposite conclusion is just as valid and therefore there is no evidence of man’s pre existence based on this passage.

 

[Telstar]

1voice,

Whether Job was a part of the group who were “all the sons of God” who “shouted for joy” is neither stated nor implied one way or the other.

The scripture states clearly that when the foundations of the earth were laid, there were “sons of God” who “shouted for joy.” That means before mortal life on this earth began, there was an existing condition for a group identified as the “sons of God”. They pre-existed the mortal earth experience, since earth was just barely being “founded” or “formed” as described in Job 38.

As many of us have already said, the “sons of God” referred to throughout the book of Job and many other places in the Bible, are the angels. They’re always present when the book of Job refers to Satan, who was once the angel named Lucifer, speaking with God. Remember, when Catholics refer to angels, we understand that they’re a completely separate creation from mankind. They’re not “spirit children” (aka, pre-mortal human beings) waiting to be born, or the souls of those who have died. They’re pure spirits that have no physical form or gender. They were created by God before the earth was formed, so of course, they existed long before any man was ever created.

 

[Telstar]

… Job wasn’t really given an opportunity to answer the questions that came to him from God…

… but Job was given an opportunity …and did answer:
“Lord, how can I answer You? I’m vile and evil and have no right to question you because I have nothing to say and am ashamed.”

You are saying that the question was not specifically addressed/ answered by Job and so there is no proof that Job was not among the sons of God… I submit, based on your logic, that the opposite conclusion is just as valid and therefore there is no evidence of man’s pre existence based on this passage.

Yes indeed, Job did answer God, after a very long tongue lashing that he was given by Him.
[Job 39] [31] And the Lord went on, and said to Job: [32] Shall he that contendeth with God be so easily silenced? surely he that reproveth God, ought to answer him. [33] Then Job answered the Lord, and said: [34] What can I answer, who hath spoken inconsiderately? I will lay my hand upon my mouth. [35] One thing I have spoken, which I wish I had not said: and another, to which I will add no more.
When God scolds you, directly, it’s apparently a very humbling experience.

 

[1voice]

Originally Posted by 1voice
Parker,
The pre existence of living beings/ Angels and these Sons of God as described in Job … that dwell in the presence of God, is not in question.
The sons of God, as described in Mormon terms, however, are specifically those that were pre mortal, became men, lived, died and are now (if they completed all that was required) sons of God.
The topic of discussion is specifically related to man’s pre mortal existence … not that of other beings… or other levels of achievement.
How does the passage in Job prove the pre mortal existence of man before he chooses to enter the physical realm … as described in Mormon thought.

1voice,
I already noted that it doesn’t.

Whew! Wow! … Well we finally got that settled.

I also noted that a person clearly, from the teachings of the Bible, has the opportunity to pray about an answer to the question of who were the “sons of God” described in Job 38.

Agreed.

If a person is going to be sincere in praying about that question, then presumably they will have been sincere enough to try and find other passages that talk about “sons of God”

That is the point of this topic… the ‘sincere’ question was asked… “Scriptural evidence for “pre-mortal existence”. Is there any?”

presumably they will have been sincere enough to try and find other passages that talk about the goings on in “heaven” during the time when the “foundations of the earth were laid” and during the time when “mortal life” on earth began.

… Again, that is the point of the topic. A sincere question leading to the sincere sharing/ critique of information leading to a clearer understanding.

 

[ParkerD]

Quote:
I also noted that a person clearly, from the teachings of the Bible, has the opportunity to pray about an answer to the question of who were the “sons of God” described in Job 38.

1voice,

Such a person, as they study the words “sons of God”, would find the following verses:

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Such a person would also find that nowhere does the Bible, in its text, equate or replace the words “sons of God” with the word “angels”.

“all the sons of God shouted for joy”. All means “all”.

 

[rmcmullan]

God does not create evil. God created our nature, that of humans as perfect. The world is fallen, Jesus has redeemed the world from its fallen nature. St. Paul speaks to this several times, most often quoted as “the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak”.

I’ve heard the same question asked from what would be considered social and moral deviancies. God created me to love X sin. The answer is, of course God did not create you to love whatever sin it is that you love. Love for sin that is greater than love for God is a choice that people make. God gave us free will, he did not give us a desire for sin.

Do you believe God created you to love sin? Do you really think when Jesus teaches to forsake all sin that he’s really saying, “I know that I created you with a sinful nature, but you need to get over that?”

Sad way to view yourself and the world if that is how you see it. A cruel and trickster god that is not the God we worship. God created us as His children, children of light not children of darkness.

Sin is a disorder. A person who aligns themselves to the will of God can come to view sin as not a choice at all. Do you believe this is not only possible but being who you are created to be?

Thank you, I agree! But that’s what I seem to be hearing. And that’s my entire point. If you take the viewpoint that we were all 100% created by God, then He’s responsible for our proclivities, good or evil. Whereas if we are eternal beings, sent here to prove ourselves, then God cannot be blamed for the evil we do. He only allows it in sorrow and only because we agreed to be proved.

 

[sallybutler]

Thank you, I agree! But that’s what I seem to be hearing. And that’s my entire point. If you take the viewpoint that we were all 100% created by God, then He’s responsible for our proclivities, good or evil. Whereas if we are eternal beings, sent here to prove ourselves, then God cannot be blamed for the evil we do. He only allows it in sorrow and only because we agreed to be proved.

In your theory, if you have been around as long as God has been and you will be around as long as He will be, how would He stop you from doing whatever you want? Why do you need God at all?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you, I agree! But that’s what I seem to be hearing. And that’s my entire point. If you take the viewpoint that we were all 100% created by God, then He’s responsible for our proclivities, good or evil. Whereas if we are eternal beings, sent here to prove ourselves, then God cannot be blamed for the evil we do. He only allows it in sorrow and only because we agreed to be proved.

I think it is apparent that you aren’t paying attention to what people are saying.

 

[Miriam1947]

Thank you, I agree! But that’s what I seem to be hearing. And that’s my entire point. If you take the viewpoint that we were all 100% created by God, then He’s responsible for our proclivities, good or evil. Whereas if we are eternal beings, sent here to prove ourselves, then God cannot be blamed for the evil we do. He only allows it in sorrow and only because we agreed to be proved.

God created us but that does not mean He is responsible for our choices. Where’s that free will choice you believe in?

If you chose to be born to prove yourself then how can you, as an eternal creature equal to God, do any wrong?

 

[TexanKnight]

I think it is apparent that you aren’t paying attention to what people are saying.

He does not want to hear. To hear is to understand. To understand is to be aware of the the truth. To be aware of the truth is to be Catholic