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ParkerD
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1voice,
I’d like to understand first if your question has as its foundation, the premise that God has a physical body, whereby He breathes and thus has personal “breath”–that He inhales and exhales?
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I’d like to understand first if your question has as its foundation, the premise that God has a physical body, whereby He breathes and thus has personal “breath”–that He inhales and exhales?
1
1voice
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
The physical part of Adam was made from the dust created by God.
So, You dont believe that it was God’s own (personal) breath that contains/is the “breath of life” … that God “breathed into his (Adam’s) face”?
Jesus said “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father”.
The physical body that God created from the dust remained dormant/ lifeless until God breathed the “breath of life” into Adam’s face. The breath of God brought the life. God may have had a physical body… or not. It doesnt change the context. The Bible states that “God breathed”
… and it was not until after that specific action that Adam … began to breathe (in the image and likeness of God).
So we dont get too far off track …Again I ask:
So, You dont believe that it was God’s own (personal) breath that contains/is the “breath of life” … that God “breathed into his (Adam’s) face”?
Originally Posted by 1voice
The physical part of Adam was made from the dust created by God.
So, You dont believe that it was God’s own (personal) breath that contains/is the “breath of life” … that God “breathed into his (Adam’s) face”?
It says in the Bible that man was made in the image and likeness of God. Genesis 1:27.1voice,
I’d like to understand first if your question has as its foundation, the premise that God has a physical body, whereby He breathes and thus has personal “breath”–that He inhales and exhales?
Jesus said “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father”.
The physical body that God created from the dust remained dormant/ lifeless until God breathed the “breath of life” into Adam’s face. The breath of God brought the life. God may have had a physical body… or not. It doesnt change the context. The Bible states that “God breathed”
… and it was not until after that specific action that Adam … began to breathe (in the image and likeness of God).
So we dont get too far off track …Again I ask:
So, You dont believe that it was God’s own (personal) breath that contains/is the “breath of life” … that God “breathed into his (Adam’s) face”?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
We have to get back to the original concept of the Christian understanding of God.
He made us to know, love, and serve Him with all our heart, soul, and mind in this life, and to be with Him in the next.
God created us out of love. We cannot fathom just how much He loves us for who we are. He loves all of creation.
But the sin of our first parents…affected the entire universe…as it was through Christ, Eternal Word, that Our Heavenly Father created it. And Adam and Eve followed the flaming sword and angel out of the Garden of Eden, that protected the Tree of Life from them…whose fruits were offered to them before their fall.
Christians, and especially Catholic/Orthodox have a great concept of Who Christ is that far transcends who we are or any musing derived from a man considering our premortal existence.
It is Christ Himself that Psalm 19 (18), “The sun (Christ) comes forth like a bridgegroom leaving his chamber…its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them”…Christ is the Living Word, the eternal Logos, the true light of history…from the bridal chamber of the Blessed Virgin Mary…pouring His light otu onto the world…
Referring back to philosophers of antiquity…of non-divine falling down from the divine…that it becomes farther away from God…finitude some kind of sin…which has to be saved by coming back, being reconnected to the infinite…The journey back is called ‘reditus’…the sin of not being god…they, too, perceived the forbidden fruit offered by Satan to mankind, to then God becomes all in all…the way of ‘reditus’ means redemption…but here, liberation from finitude…a belief on turning around…
These ancient philosophies sought redemption…movement, return, redemption…but some believed only the intellectual of higher knowledge was able to return to redemption…for the more simple without full vision…they could go through certain rituals where they would find some kind of consolation and relief…but not in union with the Godhead.
In the first concept of movement, there was this concept of transmigration of souls,…compensating what the more simple could not achieve in returning to the Divine…where one can find relief…I think of reincarnation here…and one having one’s planet to rule after this life as in Mormonism…
And these are based on having some kind of knowledge…Gnosticism…secret knowledge…the real power of redemption…to bring union with God…For the Gnostics, Original Sin was so hard to understand…that all it could be conceptualized was one falling into finitude…having an end…The eastern religions lead one to empty one’s mind and relax the body…
But to the Christian, 'Exitus is not a fall from the infinite, the rupture of being, and thus the cause for all sorrow for the world…instead, ‘exitus’ to the Christian is acknowledging the Creator creating us and the cosmos…freely. That which is not divine, is still seen as something created freely…and with Love.
And ‘reditus’…‘is the creature coming home to one’s self and is an answer in freedom to God’s love. It accepts creation from God as his offer of love, and thus ensures a dialogue of love, that wholly new kind of unity that love alone can create. The being of the other is not absorbed or abolished, but rather, in giving itself, it becomes fully itself.’…Pope Benedict, ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’…‘this ‘reditus’ bestows its full and final creation.’…But as we are broken from Original Sin, the essence of our belief and worship is sacrifice…the essence is sacrifice…returning to God’s love through our Redeemer…
Our focus is Christ as the center and light of our life…Christ passing over from divine to human…Christ’s Body and Blood, not lost but here with us at the Eucharist…giving us life and not death, and uniting us to the Heavenly Father and Creator…and man.
Even the cosmos is awaiting its regeneration and renewal in Christ. And at the Mass, ’ John 12:32, Christ proclaimed in Jerusalem, 'I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
To ponder or desire pre mortal existence…if something alien and not really pondered among the ancient philosophers…but facing their reality that something is broken in them…and they have to move, to find their way back…
The Gnostics sought knowledge and actually fulfilled God’s will in causing Christianity to define itself in its beginnings… I think of St. Ireneaus and other saints and teachers in the first 200 years of faith…
Pre Mortal existence resembles Greek mythology figures…but it does not address what the Divine always forces upon us…the moral nature of things…our purpose is moral, we have a conscience…God does not keep secrets with us…
No man can trump Christ in an attempt to bring us something better or more knowing…
Christ’s Body, Soul, Blood, and Divinity remains with us here. His transfiguration was the sign that He was about to begin his Divine Ministry that would connect to Moses and past prophets to those apostles He called to witness this event…and to the future of mankind.
Christ’s resurrection broke the power of death. Pentecost began His Church…and His glorious ascension into heaven…fulfilled the annual entrance of the sole High Priest to bless the Mercy Seat with sacrificial blood and the Passover…Christ standing at the heaven’s throne as the Sacrificial Lamb of God, wounded but risen and triumphant, united to the altar before us here on earth…we entitled to share in the praises of the angels…‘Holy, Holy, Holy’…
Our focus is on salvation and redemption…in Jesus Christ…
He made us to know, love, and serve Him with all our heart, soul, and mind in this life, and to be with Him in the next.
God created us out of love. We cannot fathom just how much He loves us for who we are. He loves all of creation.
But the sin of our first parents…affected the entire universe…as it was through Christ, Eternal Word, that Our Heavenly Father created it. And Adam and Eve followed the flaming sword and angel out of the Garden of Eden, that protected the Tree of Life from them…whose fruits were offered to them before their fall.
Christians, and especially Catholic/Orthodox have a great concept of Who Christ is that far transcends who we are or any musing derived from a man considering our premortal existence.
It is Christ Himself that Psalm 19 (18), “The sun (Christ) comes forth like a bridgegroom leaving his chamber…its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them”…Christ is the Living Word, the eternal Logos, the true light of history…from the bridal chamber of the Blessed Virgin Mary…pouring His light otu onto the world…
Referring back to philosophers of antiquity…of non-divine falling down from the divine…that it becomes farther away from God…finitude some kind of sin…which has to be saved by coming back, being reconnected to the infinite…The journey back is called ‘reditus’…the sin of not being god…they, too, perceived the forbidden fruit offered by Satan to mankind, to then God becomes all in all…the way of ‘reditus’ means redemption…but here, liberation from finitude…a belief on turning around…
These ancient philosophies sought redemption…movement, return, redemption…but some believed only the intellectual of higher knowledge was able to return to redemption…for the more simple without full vision…they could go through certain rituals where they would find some kind of consolation and relief…but not in union with the Godhead.
In the first concept of movement, there was this concept of transmigration of souls,…compensating what the more simple could not achieve in returning to the Divine…where one can find relief…I think of reincarnation here…and one having one’s planet to rule after this life as in Mormonism…
And these are based on having some kind of knowledge…Gnosticism…secret knowledge…the real power of redemption…to bring union with God…For the Gnostics, Original Sin was so hard to understand…that all it could be conceptualized was one falling into finitude…having an end…The eastern religions lead one to empty one’s mind and relax the body…
But to the Christian, 'Exitus is not a fall from the infinite, the rupture of being, and thus the cause for all sorrow for the world…instead, ‘exitus’ to the Christian is acknowledging the Creator creating us and the cosmos…freely. That which is not divine, is still seen as something created freely…and with Love.
And ‘reditus’…‘is the creature coming home to one’s self and is an answer in freedom to God’s love. It accepts creation from God as his offer of love, and thus ensures a dialogue of love, that wholly new kind of unity that love alone can create. The being of the other is not absorbed or abolished, but rather, in giving itself, it becomes fully itself.’…Pope Benedict, ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’…‘this ‘reditus’ bestows its full and final creation.’…But as we are broken from Original Sin, the essence of our belief and worship is sacrifice…the essence is sacrifice…returning to God’s love through our Redeemer…
Our focus is Christ as the center and light of our life…Christ passing over from divine to human…Christ’s Body and Blood, not lost but here with us at the Eucharist…giving us life and not death, and uniting us to the Heavenly Father and Creator…and man.
Even the cosmos is awaiting its regeneration and renewal in Christ. And at the Mass, ’ John 12:32, Christ proclaimed in Jerusalem, 'I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
To ponder or desire pre mortal existence…if something alien and not really pondered among the ancient philosophers…but facing their reality that something is broken in them…and they have to move, to find their way back…
The Gnostics sought knowledge and actually fulfilled God’s will in causing Christianity to define itself in its beginnings… I think of St. Ireneaus and other saints and teachers in the first 200 years of faith…
Pre Mortal existence resembles Greek mythology figures…but it does not address what the Divine always forces upon us…the moral nature of things…our purpose is moral, we have a conscience…God does not keep secrets with us…
No man can trump Christ in an attempt to bring us something better or more knowing…
Christ’s Body, Soul, Blood, and Divinity remains with us here. His transfiguration was the sign that He was about to begin his Divine Ministry that would connect to Moses and past prophets to those apostles He called to witness this event…and to the future of mankind.
Christ’s resurrection broke the power of death. Pentecost began His Church…and His glorious ascension into heaven…fulfilled the annual entrance of the sole High Priest to bless the Mercy Seat with sacrificial blood and the Passover…Christ standing at the heaven’s throne as the Sacrificial Lamb of God, wounded but risen and triumphant, united to the altar before us here on earth…we entitled to share in the praises of the angels…‘Holy, Holy, Holy’…
Our focus is on salvation and redemption…in Jesus Christ…
S
SteveVH
Guest
While “prove” may be a strong word, you certainly do your best to provide the strongest evidence you can muster to “disprove” Catholic doctrines such as the “real presence” in the Eucharist.SteveVH,
No, my statement said that I wouldn’t want to prove pre-mortal existence if it were provable from the Bible, as in the meaning of the word “prove”, but that the Bible doesn’t “prove” pre-mortal existence, as you and others have shown when scriptures that present “evidence of a belief in pre-mortal existence” have been cited and quoted.
I am trying to be honest by agreeing that the Bible would not “prove” pre-mortal existence because God, being all-knowing and all-powerful and also giving free will choice, would be going against His own plan if it were to be able to be “proven” using the Bible.
He is the One doing a favor, abiding by His own plan, which He obviously would do.
Your notion that “God, being all-knowing and all-powerful and also giving free will choice, would be going against His own plan if it were to be able to be “proven” using the Bible.” is contradicted by Jesus’ own actions in “proving” who he was as is very clearly set out in the Scriptures. When questioned as to whether or not Jesus could forgive sin (since only God could forgive sin) he responded by asking “Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?” You know the rest of the story. He left no doubt that he had authority. Rather than leaving anyone to wonder, he performed miracles to leave no doubt.
God wants us to know the truth. He established his Church and sent the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, not to keep it hidden in order to preserve our “free will choice”. We always have the choice to reject that truth. I find this a very strange notion, indeed.
The Scriptural evidence you have provided in answering the question of this thread is not at all convincing and to say that you would not want to prove it, if you were able, is equally unconvincing, IMO.
T
theidler
Guest
Parker, again - could we debate this on philosophical grounds at all? I really dislike having to ask you the same question multiple times, but I am interested in approaching this from a more theological/philosophical point of view. Maybe we could actually get somewhere concrete, instead of this endless circular arguing.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The ancients did not propose or ponder premortal existence…
Premortal existence teaches fully conscious spirit beings – us, and we then decide to be born…to be tested…
When already seeing God…they are already capable of being tested right then and there like the angels did…serving Him or serving Lucifer who is in competition with God.
I think one would prefer to choose God then and there…seeing Him face to face in divine bliss, where there is no need…God, All Wisdom.
Otherwise the premortals are being tested twice…there…and down here…double talk to me…
Premortal existence teaches fully conscious spirit beings – us, and we then decide to be born…to be tested…
When already seeing God…they are already capable of being tested right then and there like the angels did…serving Him or serving Lucifer who is in competition with God.
I think one would prefer to choose God then and there…seeing Him face to face in divine bliss, where there is no need…God, All Wisdom.
Otherwise the premortals are being tested twice…there…and down here…double talk to me…
S
SteveVH
Guest
Good luck with that. Philosophy is a four letter word in Mormonism from what I’ve gathered.Parker, again - could we debate this on philosophical grounds at all? I really dislike having to ask you the same question multiple times, but I am interested in approaching this from a more theological/philosophical point of view. Maybe we could actually get somewhere concrete, instead of this endless circular arguing.
P
ParkerD
Guest
theidler,Parker, again - could we debate this on philosophical grounds at all? I really dislike having to ask you the same question multiple times, but I am interested in approaching this from a more theological/philosophical point of view. Maybe we could actually get somewhere concrete, instead of this endless circular arguing.
It had looked to me like an earlier conversation on this thread dealt with the “philosophical grounds” of the question of pre-mortal existence, and seemed to just get bogged down.
Here are some thoughts:
The major reason to explore the possibility of a pre-mortal life, shared with Michael and with “the angels” and with Jehovah, is that it would mean God knew us already and made a plan for us that was personal to all of us, given our own distinct “personalities” and “weak tendencies or strong tendencies”. So that would mean our place in this world is personal to each and every one of us, including our family backgrounds, where we live on the earth, and at what point in time in history. It was all planned, and was specific to our needs such that the “greatest possible good” would be available for each of us through both mortality and the spirit world after death.
(The spirit world after death is intended as a growth and learning place, not a punishment place if we have done our best in this life to love others and keep the commandments.)
That may not be what you meant by “philosophical”, but it’s what came to my mind as pertinent to the question of “pre-mortal existence” and why it is something to ponder and explore, including seeking inspiration from heaven about this if a person desires to know for sure.
P
ParkerD
Guest
1voice,Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
The physical part of Adam was made from the dust created by God.
So, You dont believe that it was God’s own (personal) breath that contains/is the “breath of life” … that God “breathed into his (Adam’s) face”?
It says in the Bible that man was made in the image and likeness of God. Genesis 1:27.
Jesus said “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father”.
The physical body that God created from the dust remained dormant/ lifeless until God breathed the “breath of life” into Adam’s face. The breath of God brought the life. God may have had a physical body… or not. It doesnt change the context. The Bible states that “God breathed”
… and it was not until after that specific action that Adam … began to breathe (in the image and likeness of God).
So we dont get too far off track …Again I ask:
So, You dont believe that it was God’s own (personal) breath that contains/is the “breath of life” … that God “breathed into his (Adam’s) face”?
“Breath of life” means just as well in translation from Hebrew, “spirit” or “spirit of life”. The transliteration you showed doesn’t say that it was God’s own personal breath (spirit), and since Solomon said specifically, “the spirit returns to God who gave it”, then that means God gave the body which He had created its final needed component for life by “breathing” or “giving life through giving the body its spirit”. At the point of death, the individual spirit of that person who died “returns to God who gave it.”
We are dual beings. We each have a spirit which is a necessary part of giving our body life. Both are gifts from God. He gives us both, and our spirit is more drawn to Him than our body is, so we have the opportunity to “teach” our body to listen to our spirit, instead of being pulled down by our bodily appetites and needs and desires.
1
1voice
Guest
Parker,1voice,
“Breath of life” means just as well in translation from Hebrew, “spirit” or “spirit of life”. The transliteration you showed doesn’t say that it was God’s own personal breath (spirit),
This is what I posted…
" And / he breathed / into / his face / breath of life."
Are you saying that God didnt breathe his own life/ spirit/ spirit of life … into Adam?
M
mwok
Guest
So if there isn’t any evidence that directly supports pre-existence, what is the foundation of its proof?
And don’t say faith because some people actually have faith that vampires, fairies, bigfoot and Elvis exist.
Some people need more than a warm, peaceful feeling to find something to be true, because I don’t know about you but I don’t ever get a warm, peaceful feeling whenever I have to think of 1+1 equalling 2.
And don’t say faith because some people actually have faith that vampires, fairies, bigfoot and Elvis exist.
Some people need more than a warm, peaceful feeling to find something to be true, because I don’t know about you but I don’t ever get a warm, peaceful feeling whenever I have to think of 1+1 equalling 2.
1
1voice
Guest
I asked the same question about 800 posts ago. the response was Job 38 and specifically Job 38:7 describing at the creation of the world/ universe … “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” Parker believes that “all the sons of God” means literally “all” the sons that God will ever have were there at that event … long before they actually became men here on Earth.So if there isn’t any evidence that directly supports pre-existence, what is the foundation of its proof?
… and verses such as … Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.” Parker believes that statement to be strong evidence that supports pre-mortal existence… nd that God chose Jeremiah for the task because God knew Jeremiah’s character in his pre-mortal existence.He believes that the “sons of God” described in Job … were not angels because angels are not specifically defined as “sons of God” anywhere in the Bible. Although Romans 8:14 states “those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God”… and angels fit that definition.
This topic is about to hit the magic number and dive into the archives … but I had a fairly lengthy discussion with Parker … related to your question. You might sift back through if you are so inclined. The conclusion I heard from Parker is that there is no “proof”. but there is evidence that he feels has been confirmed by the spirit… and suggests that the same conclusion can be reached by anyone following the same path that he did.
M
mwok
Guest
Job 38:7 is a hard sell for me since Mormons and Catholics see Angels differently. Plus, I don’t believe God’s creative power is limited by time in that He has already created all that He will create, He is continuously creating and will continue to do so forever.
As for Isaiah; I heard an apologist explain that thoughts for God are infinitely different than ours in that when God speaks his mind it is created. So yeah, He could know us completely before He formed us out of the dust, but spoke us into existence.
As for Isaiah; I heard an apologist explain that thoughts for God are infinitely different than ours in that when God speaks his mind it is created. So yeah, He could know us completely before He formed us out of the dust, but spoke us into existence.
1
1voice
Guest
I agree with you, but that is the basic logic behind Parker’s conclusions. All of it is pretty much based on assumptions read into the text. There is no rock solid evidence for any of it in Scripture. Parker never directly disagrees … but then he never “directly” seems to say anything. LOL! … You have to cut off his tendency to go down very convoluted rabbit trails in order to get a straight answer. If you ask him if it is raining outside … He will give you the trans literation of the word rain from the original Greek and then start talking about the difference between cirrus clouds and cumulonimbus clouds in the United Arab Emirates last month.Job 38:7 is a hard sell for me since Mormons and Catholics see Angels differently. Plus, I don’t believe God’s creative power is limited by time in that He has already created all that He will create, He is continuously creating and will continue to do so forever.
As for Isaiah; I heard an apologist explain that thoughts for God are infinitely different than ours in that when God speaks his mind it is created. So yeah, He could know us completely before He formed us out of the dust, but spoke us into existence.
… but it doesnt change his mind about the validity of his assumptions.
M
mwok
Guest
I think the idea that we had to exist before we existed cuts Gods creative power short.
1
1voice
Guest
The concept is not supported by scripture. It is based on weak assumptions.I think the idea that we had to exist before we existed cuts Gods creative power short.
M
mwok
Guest
Sounds about right, as with most of the beliefs of my childhood.The concept is not supported by scripture. It is based on weak assumptions.
P
ParkerD
Guest
1voice,Parker,
This is what I posted…
" And / he breathed / into / his face / breath of life."
Are you saying that God didnt breathe “his own life/ spirit/ spirit of life” … into Adam?
As far as I’m concerned, the answer is “yes” if by “his own” you mean “His creation (which has its own life/spirit apart from Him)”.
As far as I’m concerned, the answer is “no” if you mean “His own (personal) spirit”.
Please also note that each soul is given the light of Christ “which lighteth every man who cometh into the world” (John 1:9).
P
ParkerD
Guest
1voice,Parker,
This is what I posted…
" And / he breathed / into / his face / breath of life."
Are you saying that God didnt breathe his own life/ spirit/ spirit of life … into Adam?
In re-reading, I see that I got mixed up on the negative in the question, so here is what I had intended to comment:
1voice,
As far as I’m concerned, the answer is “no” if by “his own” you mean “His creation (which has its own life/spirit apart from Him)”.
As far as I’m concerned, the answer is “yes” if you mean “His own (personal) spirit”.
Please also note that each soul is given the light of Christ “which lighteth every man who cometh into the world” (John 1:9).
T
theidler
Guest
That’s why I am trying to see if Parker will engage on a theological/philosophical level. Then we can actually get to the bottom of this.So if there isn’t any evidence that directly supports pre-existence, what is the foundation of its proof?
And don’t say faith because some people actually have faith that vampires, fairies, bigfoot and Elvis exist.
Some people need more than a warm, peaceful feeling to find something to be true, because I don’t know about you but I don’t ever get a warm, peaceful feeling whenever I have to think of 1+1 equalling 2.
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