Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[ParkerD]

What are your grounds for believing in the “memory veil” idea? It sounds to me like you’re merely ressurecting old Platonic concepts.

theidler,

I have no idea whether Plato had a concept in his mind about a pre-mortal life.

Luke certainly had a concept that there was a pre-mortal life of Jesus Christ, and that there was a “memory veil” (a way to describe that knowledge previously held was now “veiled” in this life) over his perfect knowledge, such that He “grew in wisdom” rather than already bringing that perfect wisdom and perfect knowledge to this life with Him as a baby and a youth.

Luke 2:52

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

 

[theidler]

theidler,

I have no idea whether Plato had a concept in his mind about a pre-mortal life.

Luke certainly had a concept that there was a pre-mortal life of Jesus Christ, and that there was a “memory veil” (a way to describe that knowledge previously held was now “veiled” in this life) over his perfect knowledge, such that He “grew in wisdom” rather than already bringing that perfect wisdom and perfect knowledge to this life with Him as a baby and a youth.

Luke 2:52

Then I suggest you study up on your Platonism, as the idea is directly taken from the dialogue Meno.
The verse you cite says nothing implicitly or explicitly about a memory veil or pre-mortal existence.

 

[Telstar]

This life has a “memory veil” drawn over any memory we would have of pre-mortal life and what occurred there.

There’s no such thing as a “memory veil”. That was a creation of Joseph Smith’s imagination, so he could explain and justify his theory that all souls existed as “spirit children”, before we came to earth. But, the veil referred to in the Bible is the veil between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. It keeps us from seeing anything in the spiritual realm while we’re here on earth. Occasionally, God will favor some of us by slightly opening that veil, so we can see spiritual things. This is what visions are. They’re just a small peek into the spiritual realm, meant to open our minds to seeing the things that He wishes to reveal to us. We can’t see angels or demons, but they surround us at every moment. It’s “the veil” that keeps them hidden from our view. When we die, our souls will pass through that veil, so we can finally see all of that spiritual realm. We will no longer be blinded to it.

It would be contrary to God’s purposes for that veil, if He gave us the direct information (which would thus be “proof” for us and we wouldn’t need the opportunity to draw upon faith to ask Him and thus develop a personal, one-to-one relationship) that we lived with Him in a pre-mortal life, as spirits.

We must all establish our own one-on-one relationship with God. The desire to find God is built into every soul. That’s why all mankind searches for God, and can not rest until we find Him. The whole purpose of Holy Scripture is to read what God has already revealed to us, so we can more easily find Him, by following His Word (Jesus Christ).

The words “the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” have specific meaning and application to the idea of pre-mortal existence. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) So do the words “accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.” (Revelation 12:10) Especially in light of Revelation 22:9 (“of thy brethren”).

Yes, they do have specific meaning, but it’s not the meaning that LDS believe it to be. It means that we all came from the Heart of God, Who created us out of His love. So, we must all find our own way to get back to Him so we can live in His love, forever. All souls will return to God for judgement. Only those who truly love Him, and have lived by His Word, will stay with Him. Those who do not, will be separated from Him, forever. That’s the worst suffering of hell, being separated from God.

 

[mercytruth]

Parker,

One of the earliest church father’s writings on this subject can be found in Justin Martyr’s
Dialogue with Trypho. In this writing, Justin Martyr, the philosopher is explaining his conversion experience to Trypho the Jewish philosopher.

Justin Martyr has a conversation with a disciple of Jesus Christ, and this probable disciple of the apostles, states very clearly in their discussion on the subject of souls, that the human soul has no pre-existence prior to human birth.

Anything that LDS is teaching on the pre-existence of the human soul is contrary to very early church teaching.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

One of the earliest church father’s writings on this subject can be found in Justin Martyr’s
Dialogue with Trypho. In this writing, Justin Martyr, the philosopher is explaining his conversion experience to Trypho the Jewish philosopher.

Justin Martyr has a conversation with a disciple of Jesus Christ, and this probable disciple of the apostles, states very clearly in their discussion on the subject of souls, that the human soul has no pre-existence prior to human birth.

Anything that LDS is teaching on the pre-existence of the human soul is contrary to very early church teaching.

mercytruth,

If by “early church teaching” then you mean the teachings of Justin Martyr, it would mean that those were his own teachings using his philosophy background, since he had studied Greek philosophy. This means he started from a premise he had already accepted from Greek philosophy.

This is a good example of the beginnings of what you no doubt have read about as being described as the “apostasy”. It means Greek philosophy entered into the teachings that became accepted as “early church teaching”.

 

[mercytruth]

Parker,

When I wrote of Justin Martyr, the philosopher, I was speaking of his pre-conversion experience as a philosopher speaking to a disciple of Jesus Christ.

If one reads the writings of Justin Martyr (which I would recommend to you), you will see that he is an apologist for the Christian faith against the ideas of Greek philosophy. Justin Martyr repudiated his previous Greek philosophic views, including the immortality of the soul.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mormons are discovering St. Justin the Martyr and early church teachers, fathers, martyrs…

The Mormons are using a reflection by St. Justin the Martyr in his beginning attempt to understand the meaning that we are heirs of God…Mormons think early church writings were all sanctioned as truth.

But in this case, St. Justin the Martyr is being rejected because he did not believe in pre mortal existence.

The difference between the two is when one is writing in pondering and reflection and proposing vs speaking through the Holy Spirit in the communion of the Church, which St. Justin the Martyr was doing when he denied premortal existence…

We do not pick and choose who and what we want that meets our fancy…true teaching from God resonates with the Holy Spirit and is affirmed by all believers as true…there were others in early Christianity who also pondered the meaning and implications of heirs of God…but never anything about prior eternal existence with God…that is mixing the divine, which is eternal, with the human, who is finite…saved for eternal life through Christ.

 

[Telstar]

mwok,

You answered your own question. (But it was only “a few more” who would be totally weeded out.)

Are you saying that God didn’t already know who all of His “bad children” were, so He had to retest them? That would imply that God is not “All-Knowing”. It also implies that He is incapable of discerning between good and bad spirits. Those are incredible insults to God.

It is also answered in John 17:12, by the Savior in His intercessory prayer. Only a few more are “lost” and become like the son of perdition, because of their own personal choices to fight God. The rest are part of the rescue plan which is a successful plan–the plan of salvation.

That line is a reference to Judas, who was chosen by Jesus, but decided to follow his own evil heart rather than do what Jesus taught him. But for Judas, his choice was the cause of his own damnation because of the seriousness of his sin. He was an example to all of us that follow Jesus, that even though we are drawn toward God through Him, we can still lose our soul by being unfaithful to Him. “Many are called, but few are chosen.” Judas was chosen, but through his own free will he chose evil, instead of good. Which proves that even the chosen can fall away and lose their faith.

It is also answered in 1 Corinthians 15:40-44 and 54-57. We came here for us to make choices, participate in gaining wisdom, and thus choose which kind of body we want when we are resurrected.

You skipped over some key passages that negate the concept of preexistence. You also seem to believe that we can choose what “kind of body we want”, which is only partially true.[33] Be not seduced: Evil communications corrupt good manners. [34] Awake, ye just, and sin not. For some have not the knowledge of God, I speak it to your shame. [35] But some man will say: How do the dead rise again? or with what manner of body shall they come?

[36] Senseless man, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die first. [37] And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be; but bare grain, as of wheat, or of some of the rest. [38] But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body. [39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but one is the flesh of men, another of beasts, another of birds, another of fishes. [40]** And there are bodies celestial, and bodies terrestrial: but, one is the glory of the celestial, and another of the terrestrial. **
In the resurrection, “celestial bodies” are those that are purely spiritual, like God and the angels. “Terrestrial bodies” are those of mankind, which will be transformed through the process of glorification, such as the Body of Jesus when He was Transfigured to show the Apostles what a glorified body will look like. The brightness (glory) of our resurrected bodies will reflect our personal degree of sanctity. Some of us will shine more brightly, and others less, depending on how dearly we loved, and followed the teachings of Jesus.

The bodies of the damned will also rise and be rejoined with their souls. But, their bodies will become hideous and ugly, according to the degree of their evil life, just as the fallen angel’s beautiful celestial bodies were twisted and distorted into hideous demons, according to their degree of evil. So, in a way, we do choose which kind of body we will have, by choosing between doing good or evil in our earthly life. Beyond the point of death, it’s too late to change our minds because our earthly life is over, and we’ll be judged by the choices we make, here and now.
[41] One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, and another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory. [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. [43] It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power. [44] It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: [45] The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.
And below, in red, the most important line that you skipped because it totally negates preexistence:[46] Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual. [47] The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. [48] Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. [49]** Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly**. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.

[51] Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory. [55] O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?

[56] Now the sting of death is sin: and the power of sin is the law. [57] But thanks be to God, who hath given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [58] Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast and unmoveable; always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Jerusha]

I am too lazy/busy right now to look it up, but I believe somewhere in the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg, he says that all people, by their choices in this life, choose what kind of afterlife they will have. Thus, for example, the chronic adulterer will be forced to suffer constant sexual activity in post-mortal existence. I think Parker’s argument leads in that direction, and Mormon doctrine borrowed a lot from him.

 

[ParkerD]

Are you saying that God didn’t already know who all of His “bad children” were, so He had to retest them? That would imply that God is not “All-Knowing”. It also implies that He is incapable of discerning between good and bad spirits. Those are incredible insults to God.

Telstar,

No, I wasn’t saying that He “had to retest them”.

I suggest if you want to pursue this line of reasoning, that you step back enough from your own beliefs to look at them and figure out if you believe God is “All-Knowing” and if you also believe that He will “reward” (or whatever word you wish to use) those who keep the commandments and practice repentance (or penance) in their life, and “punish” those who fail to repent.

If He is all-knowing, then by the logic you have presented, this life shouldn’t be happening and we should be in that future state, all because He is all-knowing.

I suggest that your logic is incorrect and is non-Biblical. God is omniscient, but His plan of salvation has a purpose for us–not for Him, other than it brings Him a continued fullness of joy.

 

[Telstar]

Telstar,

No, I wasn’t saying that He “had to retest them”.

I suggest if you want to pursue this line of reasoning, that you step back enough from your own beliefs to look at them and figure out if you believe God is “All-Knowing” and if you also believe that He will “reward” (or whatever word you wish to use) those who keep the commandments and practice repentance (or penance) in their life, and “punish” those who fail to repent.

If He is all-knowing, then by the logic you have presented, this life shouldn’t be happening and we should be in that future state, all because He is all-knowing.

I suggest that your logic is incorrect and is non-Biblical. God is omniscient, but His plan of salvation has a purpose for us–not for Him, other than it brings Him a continued fullness of joy.

My logic is not the one that’s incorrect. Catholics believe we are all to be tested for the one and only time in this life, not for the second time, or a third, after already passing God’s test. God has no need to test anyone more than once, to know whether they’re truly faithful to Him. He tests us here on earth, just like He tested the angels in Heaven and Adam & Eve in the Garden. We have to either choose to follow His path to Heaven, through love, or follow Satan’s path to hell, through hate.

If we had already been tested in some kind of “preexistence”, then there would be absolutely no purpose in testing us, ever again. So, it’s LDS beliefs that are totally illogical in that regard. Either we were already tested, or we weren’t. If we were, then being tested again in this life, is an exercise in futility which God would never sanction, because everything God does has a specific purpose. He doesn’t have to ‘chew his cabbage twice’. We only get one chance to choose Him.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I am too lazy/busy right now to look it up, but I believe somewhere in the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg, he says that all people, by their choices in this life, choose what kind of afterlife they will have. Thus, for example, the chronic adulterer will be forced to suffer constant sexual activity in post-mortal existence. I think Parker’s argument leads in that direction, and Mormon doctrine borrowed a lot from him.

Shades of reincarnation and caste.

 

[theidler]

mercytruth,

If by “early church teaching” then you mean the teachings of Justin Martyr, it would mean that those were his own teachings using his philosophy background, since he had studied Greek philosophy. This means he started from a premise he had already accepted from Greek philosophy.

This is a good example of the beginnings of what you no doubt have read about as being described as the “apostasy”. It means Greek philosophy entered into the teachings that became accepted as “early church teaching”.

Interesting accusation Parker, as your beliefs are ripping off Platonic and neo-Platonic elements wholesale.
Of course, this is not to say that pagan philosophy is bad, I merely want to point out that Joseph Smith’s ideas aren’t exactly original.

 

[ParkerD]

My logic is not the one that’s incorrect. Catholics believe we are all to be tested for the one and only time in this life, not for the second time, or a third, after already passing God’s test. God has no need to test anyone more than once, to know whether they’re truly faithful to Him. He tests us here on earth, just like He tested the angels in Heaven and Adam & Eve in the Garden. We have to either choose to follow His path to Heaven, through love, or follow Satan’s path to hell, through hate.

If we had already been tested in some kind of “preexistence”, then there would be absolutely no purpose in testing us, ever again. So, it’s LDS beliefs that are totally illogical in that regard. Either we were already tested, or we weren’t. If we were, then being tested again in this life, is an exercise in futility which God would never sanction, because everything God does has a specific purpose. He doesn’t have to ‘chew his cabbage twice’. We only get one chance to choose Him.

Telstar (Lori),

There really was a war in heaven, as briefly noted by John because he had a revelation about that. That was a “test of faith” for those involved in that war in heaven. Whom would they follow?

The same test continues on this earth. It is not a second test, or a new test. It is a continuation of the same test. It isn’t an exercise in futility–it’s actually quite a wonderful, marvelous, remarkable test!

Enjoy it.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

When I wrote of Justin Martyr, the philosopher, I was speaking of his pre-conversion experience as a philosopher speaking to a disciple of Jesus Christ.

If one reads the writings of Justin Martyr (which I would recommend to you), you will see that he is an apologist for the Christian faith against the ideas of Greek philosophy. Justin Martyr repudiated his previous Greek philosophic views, including the immortality of the soul.

mercytruth,

Thanks for asking me to read his writings, which I had done previously if I remember correctly now that I have read some of them again today. I hadn’t read them all, so now I’ve read the part where he presented his refutation of the “immortality of the soul” as taught by Greek philosophy (Plato).

Just because he was converted to Christianity at that time in his life, and just because he disagreed with Plato on that point to support that the Christians shouldn’t be persecuted, does not mean he was right and Plato was wrong about that one particular idea. He didn’t use the teachings of the Bible to support his refutation. He used philosophy. (He did use Biblical teachings to support others of his teachings, but not that one.)

By the way, thanks for your kind approach to this conversation. I appreciate it very much.

 

[Miriam1947]

Interesting accusation Parker, as your beliefs are ripping off Platonic and neo-Platonic elements wholesale.
Of course, this is not to say that pagan philosophy is bad, I merely want to point out that Joseph Smith’s ideas aren’t exactly original.

Love your blog and the music is awesome.

 

[Telstar]

Telstar (Lori),

There really was a war in heaven, as briefly noted by John because he had a revelation about that. That was a “test of faith” for those involved in that war in heaven. Whom would they follow?

The same test continues on this earth. It is not a second test, or a new test. It is a continuation of the same test. It isn’t an exercise in futility–it’s actually quite a wonderful, marvelous, remarkable test!

Enjoy it.

The war in Heaven began with the angels’ rebellion against God. But, that was just the first battle at the very beginning of the war between good and evil. At that point, the only creatures that were involved were the angels, because man had not yet been created in any form. The war will continue to be waged in Heaven, and on earth, until Jesus returns to Judge the living and the dead.

But, LDS belief states that ‘angels’ are really “spirit children”, who were already tested in Heaven. The 2/3 that “sided” with Jesus passed the test, but the other 1/3 that “sided” with Lucifer, failed. (IMHO, that constitutes one complete test.) All those who chose to follow the plan proposed by Jesus remained in Heaven (they passed the test), but Lucifer and his horde were thrown out to be punished (they failed the test). Do LDS also believe those evil “spirit children” are also being tested again on earth, or is their punishment final and permanent? If they’re still being tested, then where are they being tested? If not, then why would God not give them a second chance for redemption, if He knew He was going to give the rest of His children a second chance to fail?

The whole premise of our being tested, both in Heaven and again on earth (so we get two chances to ‘flunk out’… woohoo!), but the “bad spirit children” only getting one shot to fail, is completely illogical, not to mention completely contrary to the Justice and Equity of God. That would be what the courts refer to as ‘double jeopardy’, for anyone to be tried twice for the same crime, or in this case, the same purpose. God is the Author of all Justice, and that premise flies in the face of justice. IMHO… it’s just one more insult to the very dignity of God, perpetrated against Him by LDS beliefs.

 

[ParkerD]

Interesting accusation Parker, as your beliefs are ripping off Platonic and neo-Platonic elements wholesale.
Of course, this is not to say that pagan philosophy is bad, I merely want to point out that Joseph Smith’s ideas aren’t exactly original.

Hi, theidler,

Since the beloved poem by William Wordsworth, “Ode
Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood”

is quoted by Latter-day Saints quite often, then I certainly agree that as to the idea of the immorality of the spirit or “soul”, Joseph Smith wasn’t the originator of that concept.

Here is part of that poem, and I’ll highlight the lines that were quoted in a movie about the Purpose of Life that was shown quite a bit in Latter-day Saint visitor centers:

Whither is fled the visionary gleam?
Where is it now, the glory and the dream?

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
Shades of the prison-house begin to close
Upon the growing Boy,
But he beholds the light, and whence it flows,
He sees it in his joy;
The Youth, who daily farther from the east
Must travel, still is Nature’s priest,
And by the vision splendid
Is on his way attended;
At length the Man perceives it die away,
And fade into the light of common day.

By the way, I’m a great lover of the poetry of William Wordsworth.

 

[ParkerD]

(See Telstar’s quote, which I don’t see the need to repeat)

Telstar,

We have no idea how long the war in heaven lasted, but it was long enough for those who followed Satan to really have a thorough chance to hear Michael’s valiant pleas to them to change their choice and follow the plan that would involve following Father in Heaven and having faith in Jesus Christ.

So the continuation of the war and the test means that the “test of faith” that those who rebelled rejected along with Satan has been put in place here on this earth. It is the “now you must act in faith” part of the test, and some rejected even coming that far and instead rebelled against the very idea of a good purpose in living by faith.

But here we are, living by faith, and learning as we go–all good purposes.

 

[1voice]

1voice,

I don’t agree with the words “coming out of God’s own being”, and I disagree that just because there is no direct reference to “any action on Adam’s part” that the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Adam didn’t exist in any form prior to the creation described in Genesis 1 and 2.

In an earlier post, somewhere, you stated that there is no proof of pre mortal existence in the Bible … but there is evidence.
I dont see either one here in the text describing God’s creation of Adam … that we have been discussing.

Assuming that pre mortal existence… exists … based on the fact that your Idea is not specifically addressed … Makes no sense. It’s just not logical.

Parker,There is an important difference between my approach and yours.
I am not adding anything to the story. … You… are adding something that … changes … everything!! … about the relationship between God and Adam… as well as all mankind. There is a DRAMATIC difference when you assume pre mortal existence … that one addition to the story strips God of who he is. It strips him of his very nature.
I simply cant see how you can draw your conclusion. There is nothing there … at all … I mean** at all **… that would even begin to cause a person to even remotely guess … that Adam’s spirit (essence) showed up … from somewhere off stage… a location separate from God.
Breathe doesnt mean breathe … “all” mean “all” the sons of God that will ever exist … as you claim.

Literal is literal … only when it supports your position?

The Bible … in the same story in Genesis states that God “said” … and what he "said’ caused all of creation to come into being. Can we assume (as you assume that he did not breathe) … that God really didnt … speak? The Bible also states that God “saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good” … Can we assume (aside from the words in the text) … that God really didnt “see” … and that the word really meant something else?

My point … You draw arbitrary meanings in order to support your preconceptions … instead of letting the words just say what they say.
That comes across as … manipulation. Im not trying to be rude … but it just … does.

The entire process of God creating Adam … out of nothing … was described… beginning to end … God created all of Adam in every part … plus nothing. If you add another element that is not anywhere in the text … as you do above … you are clearly … adding to the Bible. You are embellishing the story … in order to support your belief in pre mortal existence … thats all.

How do you defend that?
Adding to the story based on assumption … defies good logic.
No offense intended.
… and then your response implies that a person that doesnt accept that logic … is not comprehending the accurate reading of the text … Based on the fact that they are not adding anything.

This life has a “memory veil” drawn over any memory we would have of pre-mortal life and what occurred there.

Here you make an assertion that makes sense to you for some reason … but …
Where does it come from?

It seems to appear out of thin air. I can see where it would be useful in order to give a reason for Adam … and the rest of mankind not ever saying anything about it … But?? Other than that?? It just comes out of nowhere.

And then (below) … you further justify the idea of a ‘veil’ by going right into giving what you say is God’s strategy … again based completely on the assumption that it obviously couldnt be any other way… and mixing the veil right in with the known fact ( which IS in fact based on sound scripture) that God wants a relationship with us.

It would be contrary to God’s purposes for that veil, if He gave us the direct information (which would thus be “proof” for us and we wouldn’t need the opportunity to draw upon faith to ask Him and thus develop a personal, one-to-one relationship) that we lived with Him in a pre-mortal life, as spirits.

It seems completely out of the realm of possibility to you … that we dont remember it … because it didnt happen. Im not in any way trying to cause offense, Parker, … I just, for the life of me, cant see how you can introduce an entirely foreign concept into the conversation and use it as if it were a perfectly good piece of information. It fits your scenario… perfectly. I get that. … But you cant just create something out of thin air and expect it to be accepted as a perfectly rational piece of the puzzle.

The words “the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” have specific meaning and application to the idea of pre-mortal existence.

You know, that reminds me … As my Sainted Mother used to say … “Honey, the first hundred years are the toughest.”

Alternatively (in response to your statement that a spirit returning to God supports pre mortal existence) … After God created Adam and breathed Adam’s spirit/ source of life into him … and he lived to the end of his life on the Earth … then … Adam’s “spirit returned to God who gave it” in the first place. God lives in Heaven. Adam’s life began with the spirit (which came from God) being breathed into him. Adam’s spirit … survived the death of Adam’s physical body … And returned to live with God (in Heaven)… who gave it … when he created Adam.