Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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mercytruth,

Thanks for asking me to read his writings, which I had done previously if I remember correctly now that I have read some of them again today. I hadn’t read them all, so now I’ve read the part where he presented his refutation of the “immortality of the soul” as taught by Greek philosophy (Plato).

Just because he was converted to Christianity at that time in his life, and just because he disagreed with Plato on that point to support that the Christians shouldn’t be persecuted, does not mean he was right and Plato was wrong about that one particular idea. He didn’t use the teachings of the Bible to support his refutation. He used philosophy. (He did use Biblical teachings to support others of his teachings, but not that one.)

By the way, thanks for your kind approach to this conversation. I appreciate it very much.
Parker,

Yes, what you say is true. This was a conversation that Justin as a preconverted philosopher had with a disciple of Jesus Christ. This disciple used philosophical arguments with Justin.

However, toward the end of their conversation the disciple of Jesus Christ uses a concept regarding the origin of the soul that is taken from Gen.2:7 by saying that the soul is not life, but a partaker of life. That is to say, "And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of earth, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul"

Gen.2:7 is quoted by Bishop Ireneaus to prove that the human soul did not previously exist as Plato taught with his idea of the transmigration of the soul. (Ireneaus Against Heresies, Book II, Chap. 34, paragraph 4). In this chapter, Ireneaus reaffirms the concept of the human soul being a partaker of life, and not life itself.

Gen 2:7 is also quoted by Tertullian in explaining that the ****origin of the human soul ****is by the inspiration of God. (Treatise on the Soul, chap.III).

Romans 5 states that we are all of Adam, and of Adam we are all under the penalty of sin and death. It is logical to assume that since the soul of Adam had a beginning, so does the soul of every human being, since we are all descendants of Adam.
 
Parker,

Yes, what you say is true. This was a conversation that Justin as a preconverted philosopher had with a disciple of Jesus Christ. This disciple used philosophical arguments with Justin.

However, toward the end of their conversation the disciple of Jesus Christ uses a concept regarding the origin of the soul that is taken from Gen.2:7 by saying that the soul is not life, but a partaker of life. That is to say, **“And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of earth, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became **a living soul”

Gen.2:7 is quoted by Bishop Ireneaus to prove that the human soul did not previously exist as Plato taught with his idea of the transmigration of the soul. (Ireneaus Against Heresies, Book II, Chap. 34, paragraph 4). In this chapter, Ireneaus reaffirms the concept of the human soul being a partaker of life, and not life itself.

Gen 2:7 is also quoted by Tertullian in explaining that the ****origin of the human soul ****is by the inspiration of God. (Treatise on the Soul, chap.III).

Romans 5 states that we are all of Adam, and of Adam we are all under the penalty of sin and death. It is logical to assume that since the soul of Adam had a beginning, so does the soul of every human being, since we are all descendants of Adam.
mercytruth,

When I think of the word “soul”, I don’t think of it being interchangeable with the word “spirit” and that those two words mean the same thing. Throughout the Old Testament, and in several places in the New Testament including the words of Jesus Christ in at least one instance, the word “soul” is evident to mean “the living, breathing person”–meaning the person who has both a body and a spirit which are alive.

Here are examples:

Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Acts 27:37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.

Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Psalms 107:9
9 For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.

Zechariah 11:8
8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Jeremiah 31:25
25 For I have satiated the weary soul, and I have replenished every sorrowful soul.

1 Samuel 18:1
1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

Proverbs 27:7
7 The full soul loatheth an honeycomb; but to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.

Proverbs 13:4
4 The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat.

Leviticus 7:27
27 Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Exodus 1:5
5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.

Thank you again for the truly felt kindness and charity in your conversation.🙂
 
Parker,

I am not sure whether I understand you. Gen.2:7 is speaking of the living ‘soul’, ‘nephesh’, and not of the spirit, ruach as in Ps.51:10.

So there is no interchange between the soul and the spirit in Gen.2:7. because this verse does not specifically speak of the spirit that is in man. We know that both the Tanach and the NT speak of both soul and spirit, and that there is a distinction.

Irenaeus, as I recall, says that the body houses the soul, and the soul houses the spirit.
So as I understand the scriptures and the teachings of the Church, we are a three part being.

A soul can be dead in tresspasses and sins as the scripture states. It is through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit which becomes united to our spirit that our souls are born anew in baptism.

The reverse can also be true, we are ‘not to grieve the Holy Spirit’, ‘resist the Holy Spirit’, nor ‘quench the Holy Spirit’ as the scriptures say. If we do, it is because our souls are rebelling against God through the graces, inclinations and revelations that our souls are receiving from our spirit being united to the Holy Spirit.

May his peace be with you.
 
Hi, theidler,

Since the beloved poem by William Wordsworth, “Ode
Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood”

is quoted by Latter-day Saints quite often, then I certainly agree that as to the idea of the immorality of the spirit or “soul”, Joseph Smith wasn’t the originator of that concept.

Here is part of that poem, and I’ll highlight the lines that were quoted in a movie about the Purpose of Life that was shown quite a bit in Latter-day Saint visitor centers:

By the way, I’m a great lover of the poetry of William Wordsworth.🙂
Well Parker, for once we agree on something - I too absolutely love William Wordsworth, and am a big fan of the Romantics in general. 🙂
Anyways, I am not speaking of the immortality of the soul - this we agree on I believe. I am speaking of its pre-existence before the body - this is where the disagreement lies.
Of course, philosophy of all kinds influenced Christianity - we Catholics were very influenced by Platonism during the first thousand years, and Aristotle later on, not to mention countless others. But the Fathers wisely sifted through the errors made by the pagan philosophers, and so did the great theologians of the medieval era.
So, that is why I am trying to get to the root of the concept of pre-existence of souls on philosophical grounds. But of course, I have to go to work…😛
So I’ll try to respond more in depth later on.
 
Well Parker, for once we agree on something - I too absolutely love William Wordsworth, and am a big fan of the Romantics in general. 🙂
Anyways, I am not speaking of the immortality of the soul - this we agree on I believe. I am speaking of its pre-existence before the body - this is where the disagreement lies.
Of course, philosophy of all kinds influenced Christianity - we Catholics were very influenced by Platonism during the first thousand years, and Aristotle later on, not to mention countless others. But the Fathers wisely sifted through the errors made by the pagan philosophers, and so did the great theologians of the medieval era.
So, that is why I am trying to get to the root of the concept of pre-existence of souls on philosophical grounds. But of course, I have to go to work…😛
So I’ll try to respond more in depth later on.
Parker’s definition of the “immortality” of a soul is that it comes from some kind of “intelligence” that is co-eternal with God, which God uses to procreate (form) “spirit children” with “heavenly mother” (aka, God’s wife from his previous life on some other planet/earth). So, LDS believe our souls are eternal, not just immortal from the time they’re first created by God out of nothing, as Catholics and all other Christians believe. When he claims that we “agree” on the “immortality” of the soul, he is using the LDS definition of “immortality” and all of the other terminology that they define completely differently than any other Christians do.
 
Well Parker, for once we agree on something - I too absolutely love William Wordsworth, and am a big fan of the Romantics in general. 🙂
Anyways, I am not speaking of the immortality of the soul - this we agree on I believe. I am speaking of its pre-existence before the body - this is where the disagreement lies.
Of course, philosophy of all kinds influenced Christianity - we Catholics were very influenced by Platonism during the first thousand years, and Aristotle later on, not to mention countless others. But the Fathers wisely sifted through the errors made by the pagan philosophers, and so did the great theologians of the medieval era.
So, that is why I am trying to get to the root of the concept of pre-existence of souls on philosophical grounds. But of course, I have to go to work…😛
So I’ll try to respond more in depth later on.
theidler,

If you study that long poem, it really does point to a pre-mortal life. The phrase “trailing clouds of glory do we come from God” and the phrase “not in entire forgetfulness”, plus other phrases such as “heaven lies about us in our infancy” point to a feeling Wordsworth had that there was life before birth. In the poem, the “veil of forgetfulness” would be “shades of the prison house” which “begin to close upon the growing boy”. I agree with that concept–that infants still retain some inkling of their pre-mortal life, and if they could talk, they could tell us much about where their spirit came from and how happy they are to have come to earth in this grand plan of salvation.

I love the look in babies’ eyes. It is more than just innocence. It is the kind of light Wordsworth was describing, such that “heaven lies about them” as they look around in wonder. They have much more delight in the world around them than adults do. They love nature, they love faces of people, they love to look in peoples’ eyes and catch their gaze.
 
theidler,

If you study that long poem, it really does point to a pre-mortal life. The phrase “trailing clouds of glory do we come from God” and the phrase “not in entire forgetfulness”, plus other phrases such as “heaven lies about us in our infancy” point to a feeling Wordsworth had that there was life before birth. In the poem, the “veil of forgetfulness” would be “shades of the prison house” which “begin to close upon the growing boy”. I agree with that concept–that infants still retain some inkling of their pre-mortal life, and if they could talk, they could tell us much about where their spirit came from and how happy they are to have come to earth in this grand plan of salvation.

I love the look in babies’ eyes. It is more than just innocence. It is the kind of light Wordsworth was describing, such that “heaven lies about them” as they look around in wonder. They have much more delight in the world around them than adults do. They love nature, they love faces of people, they love to look in peoples’ eyes and catch their gaze.
Brother Parker, it is possible to see vestiges of anything you want in anything you read. The problem is, you have your need to believe in something, so you read things with that as your goal. But you follow a false prophet who said men are the moon, had affairs that led to polygamy, and said God was once a sinful man. He is a false prophet. Deep inside, you know it. You are just too afraid to face it. I know. I was in your position once.
 
theidler,

If you study that long poem, it really does point to a pre-mortal life. The phrase “trailing clouds of glory do we come from God” and the phrase “not in entire forgetfulness”, plus other phrases such as “heaven lies about us in our infancy” point to a feeling Wordsworth had that there was life before birth. In the poem, the “veil of forgetfulness” would be “shades of the prison house” which “begin to close upon the growing boy”. I agree with that concept–that infants still retain some inkling of their pre-mortal life, and if they could talk, they could tell us much about where their spirit came from and how happy they are to have come to earth in this grand plan of salvation.

I love the look in babies’ eyes. It is more than just innocence. It is the kind of light Wordsworth was describing, such that “heaven lies about them” as they look around in wonder. They have much more delight in the world around them than adults do. They love nature, they love faces of people, they love to look in peoples’ eyes and catch their gaze.
The difference is Parker is that I do not go to Wordsworth to validate my beliefs ;), but if you are merely using a poem to illustrate what it is you believe in, that’s fine by me. Might interest you to know that Wordsworth was an Anglican, by the way.
 
The difference is Parker is that I do not go to Wordsworth to validate my beliefs ;), but if you are merely using a poem to illustrate what it is you believe in, that’s fine by me. Might interest you to know that Wordsworth was an Anglican, by the way.
theidler,

The poets sought to find the meaning of life. Wordsworth spent time meditating, being close to nature, pondering the meaning of life. Through doing that, the Holy Ghost inspired him–it’s that simple. I don’t “go to Wordsworth to validate my beliefs”, but what was happening is that as people broke away from traditional teachings that clouded independent thought, poets such as Wordsworth were able to receive impressions that were beyond the ways of thinking that those around them thought were set in stone.

This is but one example, and it’s valued by many people. It shows that God is no respecter of persons as they seek His inspiration and seek to find the meaning of life.
 
theidler,

The poets sought to find the meaning of life. Wordsworth spent time meditating, being close to nature, pondering the meaning of life. Through doing that, the Holy Ghost inspired him–it’s that simple. I don’t “go to Wordsworth to validate my beliefs”, but what was happening is that as people broke away from traditional teachings that clouded independent thought, poets such as Wordsworth were able to receive impressions that were beyond the ways of thinking that those around them thought were set in stone.

This is but one example, and it’s valued by many people. It shows that God is no respecter of persons as they seek His inspiration and seek to find the meaning of life.
You’re not actually serious here are you??:confused:
So, if this is the case - what about poets like St. Robert Southwell, George Herbert, John Donne, etc.? When they write about Christian doctrines and beliefs, are they not inspired by the Holy Ghost?
 
Are you saying that God didn’t already know who all of His “bad children” were, so He had to retest them? That would imply that God is not “All-Knowing”. It also implies that He is incapable of discerning between good and bad spirits. Those are incredible insults to God.

That line is a reference to Judas, who was chosen by Jesus, but decided to follow his own evil heart rather than do what Jesus taught him. But for Judas, his choice was the cause of his own damnation because of the seriousness of his sin. He was an example to all of us that follow Jesus, that even though we are drawn toward God through Him, we can still lose our soul by being unfaithful to Him. “Many are called, but few are chosen.” Judas was chosen, but through his own free will he chose evil, instead of good. Which proves that even the chosen can fall away and lose their faith.

You skipped over some key passages that negate the concept of preexistence. You also seem to believe that we can choose what “kind of body we want”, which is only partially true.[33] Be not seduced: Evil communications corrupt good manners. [34] Awake, ye just, and sin not. For some have not the knowledge of God, I speak it to your shame. [35] But some man will say: How do the dead rise again? or with what manner of body shall they come?

[36] Senseless man, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die first. [37] And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be; but bare grain, as of wheat, or of some of the rest. [38] But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body. [39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but one is the flesh of men, another of beasts, another of birds, another of fishes. [40]** And there are bodies celestial, and bodies terrestrial: but, one is the glory of the celestial, and another of the terrestrial. **
In the resurrection, “celestial bodies” are those that are purely spiritual, like God and the angels. “Terrestrial bodies” are those of mankind, which will be transformed through the process of glorification, such as the Body of Jesus when He was Transfigured to show the Apostles what a glorified body will look like. The brightness (glory) of our resurrected bodies will reflect our personal degree of sanctity. Some of us will shine more brightly, and others less, depending on how dearly we loved, and followed the teachings of Jesus.

The bodies of the damned will also rise and be rejoined with their souls. But, their bodies will become hideous and ugly, according to the degree of their evil life, just as the fallen angel’s beautiful celestial bodies were twisted and distorted into hideous demons, according to their degree of evil. So, in a way, we do choose which kind of body we will have, by choosing between doing good or evil in our earthly life. Beyond the point of death, it’s too late to change our minds because our earthly life is over, and we’ll be judged by the choices we make, here and now.
[41] One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, and another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory. [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. [43] It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power. [44] It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: [45] The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.
And below, in red, the most important line that you skipped because it totally negates preexistence:[46] Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual. [47] The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. [48] Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. [49]** Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly**. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.

[51] Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory. [55] O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?

[56] Now the sting of death is sin: and the power of sin is the law. [57] But thanks be to God, who hath given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. [58] Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast and unmoveable; always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
This is clear as well:
Zechariah 12

1 A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel.
The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person.

And this:
Hebrews 12
9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to o the Father of spirits and live?
 
This life has a “memory veil” drawn over any memory we would have of pre-mortal life and what occurred there.
Where is that stated in the Bible?

… And how does LDS belief of pre mortal existence deal with this verse:

Zechariah 12
1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

and this:
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
 
1voice,

I don’t agree with the words “coming out of God’s own being”, and I disagree that just because there is no direct reference to “any action on Adam’s part” that the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Adam didn’t exist in any form prior to the creation described in Genesis 1 and 2. Just because he received a name on earth doesn’t mean he hadn’t already been created as a spirit. What I agreed with was “came from God as a direct result of God’s own creative power.”
Praise ye him all his angels, praise ye him all his hosts
Let them praise the name of the Lord, for he commanded and they
were created. (Psalml48:2,5)

If God can create these spirits. Why can he not create Adam’s spirit?

… and if all means “all” as you stated in an earlier post … does this not prove that God created “all”.
 
1voice,

I disagree that just because there is no direct reference to “any action on Adam’s part” that the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Adam didn’t exist in any form prior to the creation described in Genesis 1 and 2. ."
For by him were all things created that are in heaven, and
that are in earth, visible and invisible …(Coloss:1:l6)

LDS teaching supports the idea that mans individual spirit/being has always existed in some form … just as God’s spirit has always existed. How does this belief reconcile with the above scripture?
 
theidler,

The poets sought to find the meaning of life. Wordsworth spent time meditating, being close to nature, pondering the meaning of life. Through doing that, the Holy Ghost inspired him–it’s that simple. I don’t “go to Wordsworth to validate my beliefs”, but what was happening is that as people broke away from traditional teachings that clouded independent thought, poets such as Wordsworth were able to receive impressions that were beyond the ways of thinking that those around them thought were set in stone.

This is but one example, and it’s valued by many people. It shows that God is no respecter of persons as they seek His inspiration and seek to find the meaning of life.
Now we have Brother Parker, who cannot find Scriptures to support him, looking for poets who do…

it is desperation at its finest…
 
Where is that stated in the Bible?
1voice,

I have only a couple of minutes right now, but one has to figure this out when they realize that Christ as a baby and as a young child “grew in wisdom” as Luke described, which means He didn’t have all wisdom as a baby and as a young child, but had a fullness of perfect wisdom as He grew to maturity. So it is evident that He had a “memory veil” such that He didn’t have the memory of all His knowledge of His pre-mortal life and his perfect knowledge and perfect wisdom from His pre-mortal life.
 
1voice,

I have only a couple of minutes right now, but one has to figure this out when they realize that Christ as a baby and as a young child “grew in wisdom” as Luke described, which means He didn’t have all wisdom as a baby and as a young child, but had a fullness of perfect wisdom as He grew to maturity. So it is evident that He had a “memory veil” such that He didn’t have the memory of all His knowledge of His pre-mortal life and his perfect knowledge and perfect wisdom from His pre-mortal life.
Wait, What?! Seriously? Oh, man. Jesus is GOD. That’s how He grew in perfect knowledge and wisdom. There is no “memory veil”. Jesus was the only one who pre-existed and became a man. The Bible is very clear on that.
 
… And how does LDS belief of pre mortal existence deal with this verse:

Zechariah 12
1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

and this:
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
1voice,

The concept of being a spirit in pre-mortal life doesn’t mean we weren’t “created” by God. We were indeed “formed” by God to be spirits, and each spirit is joined with a body and thus the result is “formeth the spirit of man within him.”

The breath of the Almighty certainly gives all of us life.
 
For by him were all things created that are in heaven, and
that are in earth, visible and invisible …(Coloss:1:l6)

LDS teaching supports the idea that mans individual spirit/being has always existed in some form … just as God’s spirit has always existed. How does this belief reconcile with the above scripture?
1voice,

The text doesn’t say “created from nothing”, nor does any Biblical text say that about creation.

The Latter-day Saint belief is that each spirit was created by God, and that there was an entity used in the creation of each spirit that was what has come to be called an “intelligence” which is not the same entity as a “spirit”. We don’t know much about it at all–just that it had individuality in some way.
 
Parker,

I am not sure whether I understand you. Gen.2:7 is speaking of the living ‘soul’, ‘nephesh’, and not of the spirit, ruach as in Ps.51:10.

So there is no interchange between the soul and the spirit in Gen.2:7. because this verse does not specifically speak of the spirit that is in man. We know that both the Tanach and the NT speak of both soul and spirit, and that there is a distinction.

Irenaeus, as I recall, says that the body houses the soul, and the soul houses the spirit.
So as I understand the scriptures and the teachings of the Church, we are a three part being.

A soul can be dead in tresspasses and sins as the scripture states. It is through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit which becomes united to our spirit that our souls are born anew in baptism.

The reverse can also be true, we are ‘not to grieve the Holy Spirit’, ‘resist the Holy Spirit’, nor ‘quench the Holy Spirit’ as the scriptures say. If we do, it is because our souls are rebelling against God through the graces, inclinations and revelations that our souls are receiving from our spirit being united to the Holy Spirit.

May his peace be with you.
mercytruth,

The Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:7 that has been translated as either “soul” or “being” has the meaning of “being”, as follows:

לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ
being

Psalms 51:10 uses a word for “spirit” which is:

וְר֥וּחַ
spirit
 
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