Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[zaffiroborant]

1voice,

The text doesn’t say “created from nothing”, nor does any Biblical text say that about creation.

The Latter-day Saint belief is that each spirit was created by God, and that there was an entity used in the creation of each spirit that was what has come to be called an “intelligence” which is not the same entity as a “spirit”. We don’t know much about it at all–just that it had individuality in some way.

So God is not really our father, just the creator of one third of us, the spirit part. We were self existing individuals living a life of some sort prior to being put into a spirit “creation”, which in turn was put into a physical body, a body that is the actual and literal offspring of our parents.

 

[RebeccaJ]

1voice,

The text doesn’t say “created from nothing”, nor does any Biblical text say that about creation.

The Latter-day Saint belief is that each spirit was created by God, and that there was an entity used in the creation of each spirit that was what has come to be called an “intelligence” which is not the same entity as a “spirit”. We don’t know much about it at all–just that it had individuality in some way.

I don’t now what is so hard to understand about God created ALL things…seems to me all means everything and that logically precludes anything pre-existing God, or existing without having being created by God. Including an idea of pre-existing soul material, whatever that is.

 

[mercytruth]

mercytruth,

The Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:7 that has been translated as either “soul” or “being” has the meaning of “being”, as follows:

לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ
being

Psalms 51:10 uses a word for “spirit” which is:

וְר֥וּחַ
spirit

I don’t know why you insist on calling the Hebrew word, 'nephesh’ as ‘being’, but it is translated as soul in most places in scripture. The Greek equivalent is 'psuche’, or psyche.

The Hebrew for the ‘spirit’ within man is ‘ruach’, and the Greek equivalent is 'pneuma’

And you are saying that the LDS teaches that the ‘ruach,’ or ‘pneuma’, or ‘spirit’ of man was created, but was created before his earthly body and soul are created of which Gen.2:7 speaks.

Eventhough Zechariah 12:1 states clearly that God **formed the spirit of man within him. This ‘man’ is translated from the Hebrew word ‘adam’. This scripture seems to clearly indicate that God formed our spirit within **our earthly body and not outside our earthly body.

And you are saying that the LDS teaches that there is some sort of ‘memory veil’ over the spirit so that we can not remember anything before we became body and soul on earth.
That ‘memory veil’ is very convenient for explaining the pre-existent spirit prior to coming to this earth as a created human being of body and soul.

 

[ParkerD]

I don’t know why you insist on calling the Hebrew word, 'nephesh’ as ‘being’, but it is translated as soul in most places in scripture. The Greek equivalent is 'psuche’, or psyche.

mercytruth,

Here is a website that provides transliteration from Hebrew to English or from Greek to English, which is where I looked up that information:

interlinearbible.org/

The Hebrew for the ‘spirit’ within man is ‘ruach’, and the Greek equivalent is 'pneuma’

Agreed.

And you are saying that the LDS teaches that the ‘ruach,’ or ‘pneuma’, or ‘spirit’ of man was created, but was created before his earthly body and soul are created of which Gen.2:7 speaks.

Eventhough Zechariah 12:1 states clearly that God **formed the spirit of **man **within him. This ‘man’ is translated from the Hebrew word ‘adam’. This scripture seems to clearly indicate that God formed our spirit within **our earthly body and not outside our earthly body.

Yes, that is what I am saying.

If one looks at all the uses in the Bible of the words “form” or “formed”, those words do not mean “made from nothing”. Often it is evident right in the text that there was a preceding unorganized entity which God used to “form”.

Especially is this true of the creation of man, Adam.

Here is an example:

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

God “formed” the spirit which is within man. This does not have to mean that at the same time the body was “formed”, the spirit was “formed”. It can just as well mean God “formed” both the spirit, in its time, and the body, in its time.

And you are saying that the LDS teaches that there is some sort of ‘memory veil’ over the spirit so that we can not remember anything before we became body and soul on earth.

Yes, but it appears likely based on how babies respond to the people around them and how much light and wonder is conveyed in their eyes, that the “memory veil” isn’t necessarily automatic right in the womb or right at the moment of birth. It will be interesting to find out all about this someday.

That ‘memory veil’ is very convenient for explaining the pre-existent spirit prior to coming to this earth as a created human being of body and soul.

As I noted to “1voice”, one can see the precedent in the words of Luke about Jesus having “increased in wisdom”, meaning that when He was a young child He didn’t bring His full memory of His pre-mortal life and His perfect knowledge and wisdom with Him from that pre-mortal life. He grew in wisdom on earth, and regained perfect wisdom and perfect knowledge.

We take the example of Jesus having increased in wisdom as an example of what we should do–increase in wisdom–which is one of the reasons we are here on this earth. Ours is a different purpose than Jesus had, since we didn’t have perfect wisdom or perfect knowledge in pre-mortal life, whereas He did.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Thread over 1000 posts.
Wrap it up guys.

 

[Miriam1947]

Thread over 1000 posts.
Wrap it up guys.

Bummer, Eric. I was really hoping that this thread could continue until the question was actually answered.

 

[Telstar]

Maybe this one needs to be restarted as a new one, so we can all have a chance to respond to Parker’s last few posts.

 

[ParkerD]

Bummer, Eric. I was really hoping that this thread could continue until the question was actually answered.

Miriam,

It is evident from your post here and from the posts of several others, that what they have assumed from the word “evidence” is that it means exactly the same thing as the words “definitive proof which cannot be refuted”.

The word “evidence” does not mean “proof”.

God has a plan of salvation in place that is doing its wonderful work here on this earth. Within that plan of salvation is the opportunity of free will choice, which means God will not force behavior. If the Bible contained “proof” about pre-mortal life that was definitive to the point of not being able to be refuted, then that would defeat the purpose of being able here on earth to develop faith and walk by faith.

This is why a person looking for “proof” about this subject will not find it in the Bible. But there is ample “evidence”, even though each item of evidence can be disputed, as has been shown on this thread.

 

[Telstar]

1voice,

I have only a couple of minutes right now, but one has to figure this out when they realize that Christ as a baby and as a young child “grew in wisdom” as Luke described, which means He didn’t have all wisdom as a baby and as a young child, but had a fullness of perfect wisdom as He grew to maturity. So it is evident that He had a “memory veil” such that He didn’t have the memory of all His knowledge of His pre-mortal life and his perfect knowledge and perfect wisdom from His pre-mortal life.

Jesus was True Man, as well as being True God. While He lived on earth as a man, His experience in growing up to maturity was the same as any other human being. That was the whole point of God taking on flesh, so men could see that it’s not impossible for any man to follow God’s will, completely, without having any special knowledge. The “veil” that covered Jesus and hid His knowledge as God, was done by the Father because He wanted to experience life in the same way that any normal man does. So, while He was still fully God, His experience on earth was the same as any man.

Jesus and Mary, were the New Adam and Eve that would show the world the way we should all live our lives for God. Their exemplary lives prove that it can be done by anyone, as long as we remain totally focused on living for God, instead of ourselves. They’re the perfect models for all mankind, unlike the first Adam and Eve, who gave in to their own selfishness and turned away from God.

We did not come “down from Heaven” to become man. Only Jesus did that, because He is God, Who created all of Heaven and earth. We’re just a very small part of all His creations, but He still loves us.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Bummer, Eric. I was really hoping that this thread could continue until the question was actually answered.

I’ll let it go to 1100

 

[Telstar]

1voice,

The concept of being a spirit in pre-mortal life doesn’t mean we weren’t “created” by God. We were indeed “formed” by God to be spirits, and each spirit is joined with a body and thus the result is “formeth the spirit of man within him.”

The breath of the Almighty certainly gives all of us life.

1voice,

The text doesn’t say “created from nothing”, nor does any Biblical text say that about creation.

The Latter-day Saint belief is that each spirit was created by God, and that there was an entity used in the creation of each spirit that was what has come to be called an “intelligence” which is not the same entity as a “spirit”. We don’t know much about it at all–just that it had individuality in some way.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

[Isaias 45:] [18] For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens, God himself that formed the earth, and made it, the very maker thereof: he did not create it in vain: he formed it to be inhabited. I am the Lord, and there is no other. [19] I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I have not said to the seed of Jacob: Seek me in vain. I am the Lord that speak justice, that declare right things. [20] Assemble yourselves, and come, and draw near together, ye that are saved of the Gentiles: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven work, and pray to a god that cannot save.

[21] Tell ye, and come, and consult together: who hath declared this from the beginning, who hath foretold this from that time? Have not I the Lord, and there is no God else besides me? A just God and a saviour, there is none besides me. [22] Be converted to me, and you shall be saved, all ye ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is no other. [23] I have sworn by myself, the word of justice shall go out of my mouth, and shall not return: [24] For every knee shall be bowed to me, and every tongue shall swear. [25] Therefore shall he say: In the Lord are my justices and empire: they shall come to him, and all that resist him shall be confounded.There is only ***one ***God that created the heavens and the earth. The “heavens” include everything in the spiritual world, all angels and all souls, as well as all of space, matter, and time, itself. Those things never existed in any other form before He created them. Absolutely nothing is “co-eternal” with God, no matter how much you might want to believe it to be true. There is no “other” God on any “other” world, or in any “other” universe. He is the only God, the Eternal Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All One God. There is only one Creator, Who made everything from nothing.

 

[TexanKnight]

IF we proved ourselves in the pre-existence as you claim, in the the battle where Satan was cast out, doesn;t it seem cruel to you that we have to come to earth to prove ourselves again? What kind of cruel God would do that?

“Sorry, but helping me defeat Satan and his army was not enough, now you must go down to earth and suffer in order to prove yourselves again.”

Sorry, Brother Parker, the True God is not nearly as cruel as the LDS one…

 

[Telstar]

I’ll let it go to 1100

Thank you, Eric!

 

[Telstar]

IF we proved ourselves in the pre-existence as you claim, in the the battle where Satan was cast out, doesn;t it seem cruel to you that we have to come to earth to prove ourselves again? What kind of cruel God would do that?

“Sorry, but helping me defeat Satan and his army was not enough, now you must go down to earth and suffer in order to prove yourselves again.”

Sorry, Brother Parker, the True God is not nearly as cruel as the LDS one…

The LDS version of “god” is much more of a “god of vengeance”, based on Joseph Smith’s distorted views of the Old Testament stories. Even though they claim to follow Jesus, they actually follow a distortion of the OT Law of Moses, much more than anything that was taught by Jesus. Apparently, JS missed the part where Jesus said that He had fulfilled the Laws of the Old Covenant and made a New Covenant with mankind, based on the love and mercy of God. Jesus was the perfect example of how we should all live by that love and mercy of God, and leave all vengeance up to Him.

 

[Miriam1947]

I’ll let it go to 1100

You sir, are a scholar and a gentleman. Thank you.

 

[Jerusha]

It is a matter of faith, and evidently for Parker, is a very important part of his faith. I, for one agree to disagree.

Eric-- can I spam this thread up to 1100? Please? :hypno: No, I won’t, but I would certainly like to.

 

[Telstar]

Yes, that is what I am saying.

If one looks at all the uses in the Bible of the words “form” or “formed”, those words do not mean “made from nothing”. Often it is evident right in the text that there was a preceding unorganized entity which God used to “form”.

God had to create all matter before He could use it to form the universe and all that’s in it, including the earth, and man. He creates souls in the same way that He created matter, except souls are not made of any kind of matter. They’re pure spirits that come directly from God, just like the angels.

Power is a thing, but it’s not made of matter. A thought is a thing, but it’s not made of matter, either. You can see light and darkness, but they’re not made of matter. Do all those ‘things’ exist? Of course they do, but you can’t touch them, or hold them in your hands. They’re intangible objects, just like spirits are, but, God still created them all. All spirits, and everything else that exists, come directly from the mind of God. All He had to do was imagine it all, and it was created. That’s just how powerful He really is. He doesn’t need any kind of ‘material’ in order to create something that He wants to exist.

Especially is this true of the creation of man, Adam.

Here is an example:

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

God “formed” the spirit which is within man. This does not have to mean that at the same time the body was “formed”, the spirit was “formed”. It can just as well mean God “formed” both the spirit, in its time, and the body, in its time.

In the Bible, the word formed has the same meaning as created, especially when referring to any of God’s creations. In all languages, there are many ways to convey the same meaning. Some prefer different words over others, but that doesn’t change the intended meaning, at all. The fact that God created everything that exists is a given, everywhere in Holy Scripture.

Yes, but it appears likely based on how babies respond to the people around them and how much light and wonder is conveyed in their eyes, that the “memory veil” isn’t necessarily automatic right in the womb or right at the moment of birth. It will be interesting to find out all about this someday.

Babies are born completely innocent because they haven’t learned to sin, yet. The veil that separates the physical world from the spiritual world is not as strong for them as it is when children begin to lose their first innocence. That’s why babies and small children often see things that adults can’t see, like angels and other spiritual things.

“[Mark 10:][13] And they brought to him young children, that he might touch them. And the disciples rebuked them that brought them. [14] Whom when Jesus saw, he was much displeased, and saith to them: Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of God.”

To go to Heaven, we must all have the same innocence that we had as little children.

As I noted to “1voice”, one can see the precedent in the words of Luke about Jesus having “increased in wisdom”, meaning that when He was a young child He didn’t bring His full memory of His pre-mortal life and His perfect knowledge and wisdom with Him from that pre-mortal life. He grew in wisdom on earth, and regained perfect wisdom and perfect knowledge.

We take the example of Jesus having increased in wisdom as an example of what we should do–increase in wisdom–which is one of the reasons we are here on this earth. Ours is a different purpose than Jesus had, since we didn’t have perfect wisdom or perfect knowledge in pre-mortal life, whereas He did.

As I said in a previous post, Jesus grew in wisdom and knowledge because He was the same as any other man while He was living on the earth. So, He had to learn everything the same way we all do.

 

[1voice]

1voice,

I don’t agree with the words “coming out of God’s own being”

How do you square that statement with the fact that the Bible clearly states “Christ in me”
Colossians 1:27

 

[ParkerD]

How do you square that statement with the fact that the Bible clearly states “Christ in me”
Colossians 1:27

1voice,

The Greek should be translated, “this mystery among the Gentiles: the hope of glory in Christ that is in you.”

 

[1voice]

It seems that at the heart of the differences between many Mormon and traditional Christian beliefs lies the doctrine of pre-mortal existence; the idea that we have co-existed from eternity with God as eternal “intelligences” who then become “spirit children” of God and then came to earth to take on human flesh in order to begin the process of exaltation for the final purpose of becoming gods ourselves. Within this doctrine is also the belief that even inert matter is co-eternal with God, having no beginning. This doctrine is so basic to Mormon thought that it governs nearly all of its subsequent theology and is the cause, in my opinion, of much misunderstanding. If I have mis-stated anything here I am open to correction.

My question is this. Where in biblical Scripture is there any evidence of this? The best I can find are verses such as “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer 1:5). It does not appear though, that this conveyed the meaning held by the LDS Church to anyone but the LDS, rather it is interpreted by most Christians to mean that God is omniscient, or “all knowing”.

Since this doctrine is so basic to Mormon theology, and so oppossed to traditional Christian theology, I thought it was worth discussion.

Steve … I know that a lot has been said here … But I feel like we are just beginning to crack the surface and get to the heart of the question … Wonder if you would not mind starting another thread with the same / or a similar title (and link it) since this one is about to expire … if it hasnt already. I have noticed that Sunday nite is a time when a lot of the mods review the topics. How bout … I will start the second chapter … Just in case and then if you have the opportunity … You start and we can follow your link …

and drop my extension of the topic … Linked here …