Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerD
1voice,

I don’t agree with the words “coming out of God’s own being”

1voice:
How do you square that statement with the fact that the Bible clearly states “Christ in me”
Colossians 1:27
1voice,

The Greek should be translated, “this mystery among the Gentiles: the hope of glory in Christ that is in you.”
nltinterlinear.com/Col.1:27/interlinear

Col 1:27
NLT | Greek NT | Matchup | Interlinear | Reverse-Interlinear

them wanted God to know that the riches glory the secret this Gentiles Christ lives in you
assurance sharing glory

No matter how you slice it … Christ is inside… and Christ is God. ( All things were made by him … John 1:3)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerD
1voice,

I don’t agree with the words “coming out of God’s own being”

1voice:
How do you square that statement with the fact that the Bible clearly states “Christ in me”
Colossians 1:27

nltinterlinear.com/Col.1:27/interlinear

Col 1:27
NLT | Greek NT | Matchup | Interlinear | Reverse-Interlinear

them wanted God to know that the riches glory the secret this Gentiles Christ lives in you
assurance sharing glory

No matter how you slice it … Christ is inside… and Christ is God. ( All things were made by him … John 1:3)
1voice,

What a translator realizes is that the order of words in a sentence affects how the sentence is understood, and that the order of words in one language may not be the order of words in another language.

It should be translated as “assurance of sharing glory which lives in you”. It should not say in translation, “Christ lives in you”. The word “Christ” would have either to do with the sharing of glory or with His grace which allows that sharing of glory.
 
1voice,

What a translator realizes is that the order of words in a sentence affects how the sentence is understood, and that the order of words in one language may not be the order of words in another language.

It should be translated as “assurance of sharing glory which lives in you”. It should not say in translation, “Christ lives in you”. The word “Christ” would have either to do with the sharing of glory or with His grace which allows that sharing of glory.
So, Paul did not say “Christ lives in you” ?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerD
1voice,

I don’t agree with the words “coming out of God’s own being”

1voice:
How do you square that statement with the fact that the Bible clearly states “Christ in me”
Colossians 1:27

nltinterlinear.com/Col.1:27/interlinear

Col 1:27
NLT | Greek NT | Matchup | Interlinear | Reverse-Interlinear

them wanted God to know that the riches glory the secret this Gentiles Christ lives in you
assurance sharing glory

No matter how you slice it … Christ is inside… and Christ is God. ( All things were made by him … John 1:3)
1voice,

What a translator realizes is that the order of words in a sentence affects how the sentence is understood, and that the order of words in one language may not be the order of words in another language.

It should be translated as “assurance of sharing glory which lives in you”. It should not say in translation, “Christ lives in you”. The word “Christ” would have either to do with the sharing of glory or with His grace which allows that sharing of glory.
How does that square up with …

Greater is he that “is in you”. 1 John 4:4

And…
“Christ lives in me.” Gal 2:20
 

How does that square up with …

Greater is he that “is in you”. 1 John 4:4

And…
“Christ lives in me.” Gal 2:20
1voice,

Both of those verses are referring to the Spirit of God, which is the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit who testifies of the living Christ, and thus a testimony of Him lives in the person and vitalizes their life. They follow the path toward becoming sanctified through the grace of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost.

We can see that by reading 1 John 4:13-14 and Galatians 3:1-3 and 27.

Also, God’s love “lives” in them as they keep the commandments and do actions in their daily life that show this attribute of God’s love alive in them. John teaches this also in 1 John.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice

How does that square up with …

Greater is he that “is in you”. 1 John 4:4

And…
“Christ lives in me.” Gal 2:20
1voice,

Both of those verses are referring to the Spirit of God, which is the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit who testifies of the living Christ, and thus a testimony of Him lives in the person and vitalizes their life. They follow the path toward becoming sanctified through the grace of Christ and the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost.

We can see that by reading 1 John 4:13-14 and Galatians 3:1-3 and 27.

Also, God’s love “lives” in them as they keep the commandments and do actions in their daily life that show this attribute of God’s love alive in them. John teaches this also in 1 John.
Again … How does that square with …
Ezekiel 36:25-28 (KJV) "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. {26} "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. {27} “I will put My Spirit within you” and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. {28} "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

Is that not the same Spirit of God that entered into Jesus at his baptism and endued him with the same power … that Jesus promised, would fill his deciples, before he ascended? (He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire) … Which had its fulfillment at Pentecost… with the sign of the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues through them … and immediately expressing the wisdom and power of God, through Peter, that cut the people to the heart… and caused thousands of people to repent and be baptized and become deciples.
 


Again … How does that square with …
Ezekiel 36:25-28 (KJV) "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. {26} "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. {27} “I will put My Spirit within you” and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. {28} "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

Is that not the same Spirit of God that entered into Jesus at his baptism and endued him with the same power … that Jesus promised, would fill his deciples, before he ascended? (He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire) … Which had its fulfillment at Pentecost… with the sign of the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues through them … and immediately expressing the wisdom and power of God, through Peter, that cut the people to the heart… and caused thousands of people to repent and be baptized and become deciples.
1voice,

Those are great verses for illustrating all this subject you have asked about.

“I will give you a new heart” clearly doesn’t mean there will be a replacement of the physical heart of each person as Israel comes back to “being My people” (God’s people). It means their heart will no longer be “stony” (meaning unreachable and unteachable), and will be just as though they have had such a mighty change of heart that it will seem like they have a “new heart”.

“Put a new spirit within you” means that God already had “put a spirit within you” and now with this mighty change of heart, the spirit within each person who has had this mighty change will be accepting of the Holy Spirit ("I will put my Spirit within you). So the spirit will be involved as though it is a “new spirit”, and the “heart” (the seat of feelings and love) will be involved, and it will indeed be similar to the promise given by Christ to his disciples and fulfilled at Pentecost.
 
Brother Parker has dodged, understandably, the issue re: premortal existence wherein the concept means God is incredibly cruel.

We prove ourselves in a vicious battle with Satan, but to the LDs God, that whole war thing is not enough. We must now come down HERE and go through pain and suffering to prove ourselves AGAIN.

The True God just would not do that.
 
We prove ourselves in a vicious battle with Satan, but to the LDs God, that whole war thing is not enough. We must now come down HERE and go through pain and suffering to prove ourselves AGAIN.
And yet a third time in the afterlife, when we have a choice to accept baptism for the dead-- or not.

How is it that an all-powerful God can’t tell whether an individual is deserving of union with Him in Heaven except by three tests?
 
Telstar (Lori),

There really was a war in heaven, as briefly noted by John because he had a revelation about that. That was a “test of faith” for those involved in that war in heaven. Whom would they follow?

The same test continues on this earth. It is not a second test, or a new test. It is a continuation of the same test. It isn’t an exercise in futility–it’s actually quite a wonderful, marvelous, remarkable test!

Enjoy it.👍
Jerusha,

I can see that I need to expand on this concept of our being “tested” as to our willingness to follow God with all our heart and soul.

In the pre-mortal life, the war in heaven consisted in each spirit deciding for themselves whether they trusted God and Jehovah enough to trust that they could accept free will choice with a “memory veil” in the coming time when they would be sent to this earth with a physical body.

Lucifer persuaded some who followed him to not trust God and not trust Jesus Christ. That was the war, simply put.

The trusting was about whether each of us would accept the “plan” that said we would come to earth, have free will choice in the midst of opposition and yet also in the midst of an opportunity to be guided by the Holy Ghost and to be shepherded by Jesus Christ, and grow through making choices, learning wisdom along the way.

We knew that God said He would send Jesus Christ as our Redeemer and Savior since He knew we would definitely make sinful choices some of the time.

The war in heaven was thus about trusting God and trusting Christ and believing in Their “belief” in us–Their confidence that we could do this through the help of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

In the spirit world after death, the only people who are impacted by baptism for the dead are those who had no opportunity for the gift of the Holy Ghost during their mortal life, through no fault of their own. It is not a “third test” nor a “second chance”. It is a “first full opportunity” for those who hadn’t had such an opportunity during their mortal life.
 
Being tested two times…doesn’t hold…

Because it is as if God makes you do the first test…where He then twirls you around and the results mean nothing, even if you do fine…

Then He makes you do it again the second time…and the consequences are far, far worse.

I will stick to the intent of Genesis, not Smith…man made religion can be a very arduous and self-conflicting…
 
Being tested two times…doesn’t hold…

Because it is as if God makes you do the first test…where He then twirls you around and the results mean nothing, even if you do fine…

Then He makes you do it again the second time…and the consequences are far, far worse.

Kathleen,

As I have thought about your comment here, it seems that the idea of being “tested” and that this seems arduous ought to be explored more.

We each no doubt have many “tests” every day we live after we are old enough to make choices. We can view those as opportunities to show God how much we love Him and love keeping the commandments, or I guess someone can view this process as arduous.

It was one basic choice to be made in pre-mortal life–to trust God enough to follow His plan willingly, trusting that indeed Jesus Christ would be our Redeemer and Savior and trusting that God knew “we have what it takes” to learn and gain the wisdom to make right choices by coming to this earth and “walking by faith” with the “memory veil” (about pre-mortal life) so we have greater free will choice.

But in this life we have thousands of “choices”, and we get to learn from making them, and to show (to God and to ourselves as it is mostly a “self test”) our love for God and for others every day by the “right choices” we make.
 
Kathleen,

As I have thought about your comment here, it seems that the idea of being “tested” and that this seems arduous ought to be explored more.

We each no doubt have many “tests” every day we live after we are old enough to make choices. We can view those as opportunities to show God how much we love Him and love keeping the commandments, or I guess someone can view this process as arduous.

It was one basic choice to be made in pre-mortal life–to trust God enough to follow His plan willingly, trusting that indeed Jesus Christ would be our Redeemer and Savior and trusting that God knew “we have what it takes” to learn and gain the wisdom to make right choices by coming to this earth and “walking by faith” with the “memory veil” (about pre-mortal life) so we have greater free will choice.

But in this life we have thousands of “choices”, and we get to learn from making them, and to show (to God and to ourselves as it is mostly a “self test”) our love for God and for others every day by the “right choices” we make.
Loving, trusting and choosing to follow God are the choices we make of our own free will. Not because we chose it before we became mortal but because we choose it now.

This has nothing to do with pre-mortal existence.
 
Loving, trusting and choosing to follow God are the choices we make of our own free will. Not because we chose it before we became mortal but because we choose it now.

This has nothing to do with pre-mortal existence.
Agreed. The LDS God-who-was-once-sinful-man is a very cruel god. I prefer the True God who is loving and forgiving. I pray very much that Brother Parker will see the light.
 
Loving, trusting and choosing to follow God are the choices we make of our own free will. Not because we chose it before we became mortal but because we choose it now.

This has nothing to do with pre-mortal existence.
Miriam,

It needn’t seem so illogical that God would allow us to choose whether or not we would trust Him and trust Jesus enough to choose to embark on this “journey” of life on earth without living where we see Them with our eyes, although we certainly feel Their presence in our lives.

This is consistent with God’s love, and with the whole concept of “free will choice”.

We actually had the opportunity to choose whether or not we would trust Them enough, and trust that They knew what They were doing and that They had the confidence in us (like how a parent or a teacher expresses confidence in a child or a student by saying “you can do it” and then not “helicoptering” or “hovering” but letting them do it on their own so they gain their own confidence that they indeed could do it).
 
Miriam,

It needn’t seem so illogical that God would allow us to choose whether or not we would trust Him and trust Jesus enough to choose to embark on this “journey” of life on earth without living where we see Them with our eyes, although we certainly feel Their presence in our lives.

This is consistent with God’s love, and with the whole concept of “free will choice”.

We actually had the opportunity to choose whether or not we would trust Them enough, and trust that They knew what They were doing and that They had the confidence in us (like how a parent or a teacher expresses confidence in a child or a student by saying “you can do it” and then not “helicoptering” or “hovering” but letting them do it on their own so they gain their own confidence that they indeed could do it).
It is not logical at all that we had to choose and prove ourselves in the alleged pre-existence war and then, because God STILL was not sure, we were sent down here to prove ourselves all over again,
 
Kathleen,

As I have thought about your comment here, it seems that the idea of being “tested” and that this seems arduous ought to be explored more.

We each no doubt have many “tests” every day we live after we are old enough to make choices. We can view those as opportunities to show God how much we love Him and love keeping the commandments, or I guess someone can view this process as arduous.

It was one basic choice to be made in pre-mortal life–to trust God enough to follow His plan willingly, trusting that indeed Jesus Christ would be our Redeemer and Savior and trusting that God knew “we have what it takes” to learn and gain the wisdom to make right choices by coming to this earth and “walking by faith” with the “memory veil” (about pre-mortal life) so we have greater free will choice.

But in this life we have thousands of “choices”, and we get to learn from making them, and to show (to God and to ourselves as it is mostly a “self test”) our love for God and for others every day by the “right choices” we make.
The major problem between LDS and Christian belief about there being a preexistence is not the fact that God tests us. We have no problem with that, because we are meant to be tested here on earth, in a similar manner that the angels were tested in Heaven. It isn’t a matter of a one question test. It’s based on all of our actions during our whole lifetime, and how they develop our spirituality and love of God, as well as how well we interact with all mankind.

God teaches us how to live, by teaching us how to discern between right and wrong (aka: good & evil), in the Bible. We’re all born with an inner knowledge of the existence of God, that urges us to seek Him out and do His will. He sends us grace and inspires us to do what’s right, but the devil also tries to tempt us not to follow God’s inspirations. That’s the spiritual battle that constantly rages within all of us while we’re here on earth.

So, if we’re not properly taught the difference between right and wrong by those around us, then we’ll tend more toward choosing sin, even though we might think we’re doing the right thing. That’s what happens when we’re taught that wrong is right, and right is wrong. We grow up with a distorted view of those basics of spirituality, and it makes it much harder for us to ever do the right thing, so we’re more likely to fail God’s test.

The problem with the LDS belief in the preexistence of souls, that supposedly come from some kind of “intelligence” that’s co-eternal with God, is that it’s just the beginning of learning a distorted view of spiritual reality for all those who believe it. It teaches them that they are co-eternal and, basically, already equal to God from the beginning. All they have to do is follow the proper ‘procedures’ of Mormon belief and they can also become “gods” like Him in the future. That’s why Christians reject that entire premise, because it diminishes Who God really is, and makes men seem to be much higher in position than they really are. Believing that we are actual “spiritual sons of God” before we come to earth, in the same way that Jesus supposedly is, as opposed to our being His adopted sons and daughters through grace, is the worst kind of blasphemy. Because only Jesus is the true Son of God that came down from Heaven. He created us, and we have a totally different nature than Him.

God has a purely spiritual Divine nature, while we have a combination of spiritual and physical human nature, that He created along with the entire universe. They are not the same nature. God took on the flesh of human nature through the Incarnation of Jesus, to show us that He was willing to lower Himself and come down from Heaven, in order to save us from our sins. He became man so we could more easily identify with God. God knew that no man could ever look into His face and understand Him as He truly is, so by becoming one of us, He took on a human face that we could more easily recognize and understand. So, Jesus has two complete natures. He’s completely God (Divine) and completely human at the same time, in the same way that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three individual Persons in One God.

So, believing in the preexistence also sets the precedent that the Holy Trinity is made up of three separate “god-like” entities (three separate gods), instead of One Eternal God, which is another heresy and blasphemy against Him, that leads us into even greater and more serious errors.
 
(Post I am responding to).
Telstar (Lori),

I have a few minutes to answer this post, so here are responses by sentence number:
  1. In sentence 1, it shows that free will choice has been given by God and used within that sentence in a non-Biblical way and in a way that creates a label rather than upholds the teachings of the Bible.
  2. I agree with paragraph 2 and paragraph 3 in principle.
  3. Paragraph 4, sentence 2 is completely incorrect. The Bible teaches that those who believe in Christ and stay faithful in those beliefs access His grace and become “sons of God”. The intercessory prayer teaches that God and Christ desire that humankind become one with Them. This is not inaccessible–it is what the Bible teaches, but it certainly doesn’t mean that humankind started out “already equal to God”–that’s nonsense.
    Sentence 3 should be modified to something similar to “follow Biblical beliefs including making covenants, keeping the commandments, heeding the guiding influence of the Holy Spirit after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, believing that Christ was inspired when He “gave some apostles, and some prophets” for the work of the ministry and the edifying of the members together while we become a Zion people.”
There is not a belief at all that we were “spiritual sons and daughters of God” in the same sense that Jesus is the Son of God. We are spiritual sons and daughters of God in the sense expressed by Paul, “We have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us; shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of our spirits, and live?” (Hebrews 12:9)

I have to go now, but I’ll add more sometime later tonight. A wish of peace to you and all readers.
 
Telstar (Lori), (continuation)

Paragraphs 5 and 6 get to the real heart of the whole matter and depict the apostasy that led to the Nicene Creed, since the real underlying question is how to understand and come to know God the Father and His Beloved Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, and how to understand the guiding influence of the Holy Spirit in gaining that knowledge. “For this is life eternal, that they might know thee”, as Jesus prayed in His intercessory prayer–so it is absolutely the most important thing to do in this life, to come to understand how to know God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. (John 17)

It is clear through the teachings of Jesus that one does this through personal, sincere prayer with an open-ended state of mind and an open-ended question and a willingness to be taught by the Holy Spirit, through personal prayer.

I among many thousands of others have prayed sincerely in that way to know Them, so I know that They are Separate Persons, truly, with a Oneness that is also complete in all They do, in Their will, in Their love, and in Their united voice of truth and goodness and light. This does not diminish the Son to know that He really is the Son of God just as He said He is, and that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, just as He told the Jews that He is, the Great I AM.
 
Also wondering how long the moderators will allow the insults and lies to continue, or maybe how much longer they can be kept up.
 
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