Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[ParkerD]

That’s why I am trying to see if Parker will engage on a theological/philosophical level. Then we can actually get to the bottom of this.

theidler, (here is my earlier response again)

It had looked to me like an earlier conversation on this thread dealt with the “philosophical grounds” of the question of pre-mortal existence, and seemed to just get bogged down.

Here are some thoughts:

The major reason to explore the possibility of a pre-mortal life, shared with Michael and with “the angels” and with Jehovah, is that it would mean God knew us already and made a plan for us that was personal to all of us, given our own distinct “personalities” and “weak tendencies or strong tendencies”. So that would mean our place in this world is personal to each and every one of us, including our family backgrounds, where we live on the earth, and at what point in time in history. It was all planned, and was specific to our needs such that the “greatest possible good” would be available for each of us through both mortality and the spirit world after death.

(The spirit world after death is intended as a growth and learning place, not a punishment place if we have done our best in this life to love others and keep the commandments.)

That may not be what you meant by “philosophical”, but it’s what came to my mind as pertinent to the question of “pre-mortal existence” and why it is something to ponder and explore, including seeking inspiration from heaven about this if a person desires to know for sure.

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Parker,

This is what I posted…
" And / he breathed / into / his face / breath of life."

Are you saying that God didnt breathe his own life/ spirit/ spirit of life … into Adam?

1voice,

In re-reading, I see that I got mixed up on the negative in the question, so here is what I had intended to comment:

1voice,
As far as I’m concerned, the answer is “no” if by “his own” you mean “His creation (which has its own life/spirit apart from Him)”.

As far as I’m concerned, the answer is “yes” if you mean “His own (personal) spirit”.

Please also note that each soul is given the light of Christ “which lighteth every man who cometh into the world” (John 1:9).

Based on your statement here as well as your statements above … can I take it to mean that you believe that both the physical (dust) part of Adam as well as the soul/ spirit of life … part of Adam … came out of/ from God and were a direct result of God’s creative power?

 

[RebeccaJ]

ParkerD, the “breath of God” is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit.

God breathed across the water…does that mean you believe God put a spirit into the ocean? What is this spirit?

For us, and everyone else I know but Mormons, it is a creative description of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the giver of life. God gave your life to you, body and soul. A human being is both. Why do you believe resurrection is important if not to restore life? As scripture tells us, DEATH was conquered. How I see your reasonging, you’re saying that one never really dies to begin with, so what do you think is conquered when the scriptures teach us that death is conquered.

 

[Telstar]

I think Parker is confused over the term “breath” of life, or “breath” of God, as if it was an inference that somehow, God actually “breathes” air. It stems from the LDS belief that God the Father has a “body”, which is probably where JS got that idea, because of all the references to the “breath” of God in the Bible. But, when the Bible refers to the “breath” of God, or says that God “breathes” something into existence, it’s meant to be an indication of Him using His power, as God, either to create or cause something to happen. Since God’s actions are not easily understood in human terms or ideas, it’s a way for men to describe those actions of God, simply by using the analogy of Him breathing. Especially the references to “breath of life”, because men can easily associate ‘breathing’ with ‘life’. Everything that lives must somehow breathe, but it’s a simple action that no one really has to think about doing. When there is no longer any sign of “breath” in a man, he dies.

So, using that kind of analogy to indicate how God does things so easily, like creating a man or the entire universe, is meant to show us the truly immense power of God. He creates all things out of nothing, just as easily as any man breathes air. The other analogy that’s also used in the Bible is that God does things by a mere thought of His Divine Mind. It’s incomprehensible to us that God could have such unbelievable power, but He does. It also shows us how insignificant we are compared to Him, yet He loves us enough to lower Himself, and come down from Heaven to become a man like one of us, in order to reconcile us to Him.

IMHO, LDS beliefs diminish the true power and dignity of God, by making men appear to be on the same level as Him. They see all men (at least, all LDS) as having the same ‘divine’ nature as God. If we are all believed to be His true “spirit children” and co-eternal with Him, just like Jesus, then there would be no real distinction between God and man. That’s the worst kind of blasphemy because, not only does it deny the immense power of God, but it reduces His superior position in relation to all mankind. By believing in the possibility of man’s “exaltation” as a god, they see themselves as being in the same position that He alone holds, at some point in their future. That’s the ultimate sin of pride and arrogance in any man, to try and put himself on the same level as God. It was also the greatest sin of Lucifer and his horde.

 

[ParkerD]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Parker,

This is what I posted…
" And / he breathed / into / his face / breath of life."

Are you saying that God didnt breathe his own life/ spirit/ spirit of life … into Adam?

Based on your statement here as well as your statements above … can I take it to mean that you believe that both the physical (dust) part of Adam as well as the soul/ spirit of life … part of Adam … came out of/ from God and were a direct result of God’s creative power?

1voice,

The answer to your last question is “yes”. (came from God and were a direct result of God’s creative power).

 

[ParkerD]

Testar,

By setting up several wrong premises, one who does that is always going to arrive at wrong conclusions. But pertinent to those wrong conclusions is the great truth that “perfect love casteth out fear”. (1 John 4:18) So that would mean and does mean that there is nothing to be feared from those wrong conclusions–they result in zero fear, because the goal is “perfect love”–“to love as God loves”. Thus, pointed fingers convey no sense of needing to “fear”, at all.

Whether God is omnipotent or not becomes the crucial question for one who says He cannot bring humankind, through the grace of His Beloved Only Begotten Son, into the kind of love and selflessness that qualifies for being entrusted to be “made ruler over many things”.

Latter-day Saints believe God is truly that omnipotent–with no qualification and limitation brought about by an underpinning of Greek philosophy which is not a valid premise for God’s plan of salvation.

 

[mwok]

That’s the worst kind of blasphemy because, not only does it deny the immense power of God, but it reduces His superior position in relation to all mankind. By believing in the possibility of man’s “exaltation” as a god, they see themselves as being in the same position that He alone holds, at some point in their future. That’s the ultimate sin of pride and arrogance in any man, to try and put himself on the same level as God. It was also the greatest sin of Lucifer and his horde.

:thumbsup:What I’ve been trying to tell my brother and LDS friends all along!!

As I’ve heard somewhere, that when God and Satan say the exact same thing one of them is lying.

 

[mwok]

So why was Satan wrong for wanting to be a god?

 

[ParkerD]

So why was Satan wrong for wanting to be a god?

mwok,

By reading Isaiah 14:12-14 and Revelation 12:7-17, we learn that Satan was an “accuser of his brethren”, a maker of war not peace, a deceiver of the “whole world”. There was no love in those motives–not a particle of it. There was complete selfishness in those motives, and hatred of anything that is good.

Wrong motives cannot lead to right actions or right desires, which is surely obvious. The wrong motives led to the wrong desires which led to abhorrent actions, and still do.

Everything Satan does is deceptive, including what he did in the garden of Eden. But that doesn’t mean Eve bought into his deception, although his deception worked to deceive many others (even today) into accusing her and thinking that she did buy into it.

 

[mwok]

mwok,

By reading Isaiah 14:12-14 and Revelation 12:7-17, we learn that Satan was an “accuser of his brethren”, a maker of war not peace, a deceiver of the “whole world”. There was no love in those motives–not a particle of it. There was complete selfishness in those motives, and hatred of anything that is good.
Wrong motives cannot lead to right actions or right desires, which is surely obvious. The wrong motives led to the wrong desires which led to abhorrent actions, and still do.

Isaiah 14:
9 'On your account, Sheol below is astir to greet your arrival. He has roused the ghosts to greet you, all the rulers of the world. He has made all the kings of the nations get up from their thrones.
10 They will all greet you with the words, “So, you too are now as weak as we are! You, too, have become like us.
11 Your pride has been flung down to Sheol with the music of your lyres; under you a mattress of maggots, over you a blanket of worms.
12 How did you come to fall from the heavens, Daystar, son of Dawn? How did you come to be thrown to the ground, conqueror of nations?
13 You who used to think to yourself: I shall scale the heavens; higher than the stars of God I shall set my throne. I shall sit on the Mount of Assembly far away to the north.
14 I shall climb high above the clouds, I shall rival the Most High.”
15 Now you have been flung down to Sheol, into the depths of the abyss!16 'When they see you, they will scrutinise you and consider what you have become, “Is this the man who made the world tremble, who overthrew kingdoms?
17 He made the world a desert, he levelled cities and never freed his prisoners to go home.”
18 All other kings of nations, all of them, lie honourably, each in his own tomb;
19 but you have been thrown away, unburied, like a loathsome branch, covered with heaps of the slain pierced by the sword who fall on the rocks of the abyss like trampled carrion.
20 'You will not rejoin them in the grave, for you have brought your country to ruin and destroyed your people. The offspring of the wicked leave no name behind them.
21 Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their father! Never again must they rise to conquer the world and cover the face of the earth with their cities.
22 ‘I will rise against them, declares Yahweh Sabaoth, and deprive Babylon of name, remnant, offspring and posterity, declares Yahweh.
23 I shall turn it into the haunt of hedgehogs, a swamp. I shall sweep it with the broom of destruction, declares Yahweh Sabaoth.’

The text in the red I can see how it alludes to Satan, but how are the motives in the context of the rest of the chapter different than LDS? Did not the Israelites believe that they were destined to conquer?

Everything Satan does is deceptive, including what he did in the garden of Eden. But that doesn’t mean Eve bought into his deception, although his deception worked to deceive many others (even today) into accusing her and thinking that she did buy into it.

So which part of Satan’s lie did Eve not believe, or which part did she believe. What convinced her that she should disobey God by eating the fruit in order that she should obey Satan, who told presented the fruit in hopes that she would eat it?

 

[ParkerD]

The text in the red I can see how it alludes to Satan, but how are the motives in the context of the rest of the chapter different than LDS? Did not the Israelites believe that they were destined to conquer?

So which part of Satan’s lie did Eve not believe, or which part did she believe. What convinced her that she should disobey God by eating the fruit in order that she should obey Satan, who told presented the fruit in hopes that she would eat it?

mwok,

I have no idea what translation that was, but I suggest the KJV as a far better translation of those verses.

The motives of Latter-day Saints are exactly what the Savior taught–service to others (be the “servant of all”), love of God and all men, exercising faith, hope, and charity, being a peace-maker and a peace-giver, and doing all this through loving Him and loving the Father who sent Him. Satan is diametrically opposed to any of that.

Eve had independent thought, as shown in Genesis 3:6 (KVJ). She reached her own conclusion that eating the fruit was “to be desired to make one wise”, so that was her primary motive, as told to us by Moses and thus by the inspiration he received from God.

She also said “the serpent beguiled me”, but that doesn’t mean she bought into all of his lies, and in fact Genesis 3:6 shows that she didn’t.

 

[Telstar]

Testar,

By setting up several wrong premises, one who does that is always going to arrive at wrong conclusions. But pertinent to those wrong conclusions is the great truth that “perfect love casteth out fear”. (1 John 4:18) So that would mean and does mean that there is nothing to be feared from those wrong conclusions–they result in zero fear, because the goal is “perfect love”–“to love as God loves”. Thus, pointed fingers convey no sense of needing to “fear”, at all.

Parker, why do you always have to talk in riddles? Why don’t you just come right out and say what you really mean, instead of playing flowery word games to cover up what you really want to say? It’s pretty clear that you like to use vague circular statements that are intended to make you sound more ‘mystical’, as if you were talking in parables, but it really doesn’t work for you.

Whether God is omnipotent or not becomes the crucial question for one who says He cannot bring humankind, through the grace of His Beloved Only Begotten Son, into the kind of love and selflessness that qualifies for being entrusted to be “made ruler over many things”.

I never said God can’t do it, because I know that He can do anything. Lucifer also knew, very well, that God could have given Him much more power. But, God knew that giving His creatures too much power could eventually corrupt them, which is what happened in the case of Lucifer. His power was only second to God’s (by a lot), but it went to his head. The more he got the more he wanted, and the more evil he became because he couldn’t handle it. He was drunk with his own power and defied God.

God will never give that kind of power to any other creature, no matter how much He loves them. Lucifer was God’s most beloved of all the angels that He created, but even though he was created good, he chose to turn away from the love of God, and become evil. His jealousy and envy of God’s immense power came from of his excessive love for himself, that only served to feed his pride, arrogance and hatred. This old saying is very true, “Power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts, absolutely.” Only God can wield unlimited power without being corrupted by it, because Omnipotent Power is an attribute of His Divine Nature. We are not divine, we’re human. We were created by God. He is the only Divine Being, in all of existence. He offers us a share in His Divinity through our partaking of the Holy Eucharist, but we will never be fully divine, because it’s just not a normal part of our human nature.

Latter-day Saints believe God is truly that omnipotent–with no qualification and limitation brought about by an underpinning of Greek philosophy which is not a valid premise for God’s plan of salvation.

You’re certainly free to believe anything you like, even if it’s wrong. That’s what free will is all about. God is definitely Omnipotent, and Greek philosophy has nothing to do with the Truth about God that’s taught by the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ is the only source of Truth in the Catholic Church, that He built on Saint Peter, just as He promised. She’s still standing. No matter how hard the devil, or anyone else, tries to stomp Her into the ground, they will never succeed.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think Parker is confused over the term “breath” of life, or “breath” of God, as if it was an inference that somehow, God actually “breathes” air. It stems from the LDS belief that God the Father has a “body”, which is probably where JS got that idea, because of all the references to the “breath” of God in the Bible. But, when the Bible refers to the “breath” of God, or says that God “breathes” something into existence, it’s meant to be an indication of Him using His power, as God, either to create or cause something to happen. Since God’s actions are not easily understood in human terms or ideas, it’s a way for men to describe those actions of God, simply by using the analogy of Him breathing. Especially the references to “breath of life”, because men can easily associate ‘breathing’ with ‘life’. Everything that lives must somehow breathe, but it’s a simple action that no one really has to think about doing. When there is no longer any sign of “breath” in a man, he dies.

So, using that kind of analogy to indicate how God does things so easily, like creating a man or the entire universe, is meant to show us the truly immense power of God. He creates all things out of nothing, just as easily as any man breathes air. The other analogy that’s also used in the Bible is that God does things by a mere thought of His Divine Mind. It’s incomprehensible to us that God could have such unbelievable power, but He does. It also shows us how insignificant we are compared to Him, yet He loves us enough to lower Himself, and come down from Heaven to become a man like one of us, in order to reconcile us to Him.

IMHO, LDS beliefs diminish the true power and dignity of God, by making men appear to be on the same level as Him. They see all men (at least, all LDS) as having the same ‘divine’ nature as God. If we are all believed to be His true “spirit children” and co-eternal with Him, just like Jesus, then there would be no real distinction between God and man. That’s the worst kind of blasphemy because, not only does it deny the immense power of God, but it reduces His superior position in relation to all mankind. By believing in the possibility of man’s “exaltation” as a god, they see themselves as being in the same position that He alone holds, at some point in their future. That’s the ultimate sin of pride and arrogance in any man, to try and put himself on the same level as God. It was also the greatest sin of Lucifer and his horde.

In all honesty, “parkerd” thinks he is being all insightful and i’m just thinking he is full of it, making it up as he goes along.

 

[mwok]

mwok,

I have no idea what translation that was, but I suggest the KJV as a far better translation of those verses.

My translation was www.catholic.org, either translation however states that the individual being spoken to was a man, not an angel. And even given the differences in what the LDS and Catholic Church teach concerning what an angel is, Lucifer was never a man. Plus, note in verse 14 the writer states that Lucifer said he would be like the Most High(God). So, in both Isaiah and in Genesis, Lucifer states that one could be like God and what was the result? Adam and Eve being cast out of Eden, and Lucifer being cast out of Heaven.

Eve had independent thought, as shown in Genesis 3:6 (KVJ). She reached her own conclusion that eating the fruit was “to be desired to make one wise”, so that was her primary motive, as told to us by Moses and thus by the inspiration he received from God.

So as long as she thought about it long and hard and her motives were pure it was the best action for her to disobey God and eat the fruit to make herself wiser?

She also said “the serpent beguiled me”, but that doesn’t mean she bought into all of his lies, and in fact Genesis 3:6 shows that she didn’t.

The serpent tricked me, but I didn’t believe him?? What kind of logic is that?!
Is that like saying “I took what didn’t belong to me, but I didn’t steal it?”

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice

Based on your statement here as well as your statements above … can I take it to mean that you believe that both the physical (dust) part of Adam as well as the soul/ spirit of life … part of Adam … came out of/ from God and were a direct result of God’s creative power?

1voice,

The answer to your last question is “yes”. (came from God and were a direct result of God’s creative power).

That said…

And

Given that the following is agreed to be true:
Genesis 2:7

και / έπλασεν ο θεός / τον / άνθρωπον / χουν / λαβών / από / της / γης / και /
And / God shaped / the / man, / dust / taking / from / the / earth. / And /

ενεφύσησεν / εις / ενεφύσησεν αυτού / πνοήν ζωής / και / εγένετο άνθρωπος / εις /
he breathed / into / his face / breath of life, / and / became man / a /

ψυχήν / ζώσαν
soul / living

(taking note of your earlier clarification/ interpretation of the words “breath of life”)

---

Given the fact that Adam’s physical body as well as his spirit/ soul were produced by God’s own creative power as described in the span of those few verses posted above …

How do you reconcile the Biblical description of Adam’s creation …Which gives God all the credit…and drawing on nothing but the elements described … coming out of Gods own being … with no reference to any action/ (name removed by moderator)ut on Adam’s part (Adam didnt even have a name until God gave it to him after creating the first man.)
How do you reconcile the above Biblical description… with the LDS belief that Adam came from a pre mortal existence?

 

[ParkerD]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice

Based on your statement here as well as your statements above … can I take it to mean that you believe that both the physical (dust) part of Adam as well as the soul/ spirit of life … part of Adam … came out of/ from God and were a direct result of God’s creative power?

That said…

And

Given that the following is agreed to be true:
Genesis 2:7

και / έπλασεν ο θεός / τον / άνθρωπον / χουν / λαβών / από / της / γης / και /
And / God shaped / the / man, / dust / taking / from / the / earth. / And /

ενεφύσησεν / εις / ενεφύσησεν αυτού / πνοήν ζωής / και / εγένετο άνθρωπος / εις /
he breathed / into / his face / breath of life, / and / became man / a /

ψυχήν / ζώσαν
soul / living

(taking note of your earlier clarification/ interpretation of the words “breath of life”)

---

Given the fact that Adam’s physical body as well as his spirit/ soul were produced by God’s own creative power as described in the span of those few verses posted above …

How do you reconcile the Biblical description of Adam’s creation …Which gives God all the credit…and drawing on nothing but the elements described … coming out of Gods own being … with no reference to any action/ (name removed by moderator)ut on Adam’s part (Adam didnt even have a name until God gave it to him after creating the first man.)
How do you reconcile the above Biblical description… with the LDS belief that Adam came from a pre mortal existence?

1voice,

I don’t agree with the words “coming out of God’s own being”, and I disagree that just because there is no direct reference to “any action on Adam’s part” that the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Adam didn’t exist in any form prior to the creation described in Genesis 1 and 2. Just because he received a name on earth doesn’t mean he hadn’t already been created as a spirit. What I agreed with was “came from God as a direct result of God’s own creative power.”

This life has a “memory veil” drawn over any memory we would have of pre-mortal life and what occurred there.

It would be contrary to God’s purposes for that veil, if He gave us the direct information (which would thus be “proof” for us and we wouldn’t need the opportunity to draw upon faith to ask Him and thus develop a personal, one-to-one relationship) that we lived with Him in a pre-mortal life, as spirits.

The words “the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” have specific meaning and application to the idea of pre-mortal existence. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) So do the words “accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.” (Revelation 12:10) Especially in light of Revelation 22:9 (“of thy brethren”).

 

[mwok]

If there was a pre-existence in which we already chose God over Satan, why come to earth to weed out more of God’s children?

pre-mortal existence only comes from the misconception that God didn’t create matter but reorganized it.

 

[ParkerD]

My translation was www.catholic.org, either translation however states that the individual being spoken to was a man, not an angel. And even given the differences in what the LDS and Catholic Church teach concerning what an angel is, Lucifer was never a man.

mwok,

The “King of Babylon” is not a “man”. Those words mean the “ruler of Babylon”, and “Babylon” is a symbol of Satan’s “rulership” as seen again and again in the book of Revelation.

Plus, note in verse 14 the writer states that Lucifer said he would be like the Most High(God).

Yes, Lucifer was being defiant of God and saying that he would triumph through his own personal power and thus "be like the Most High (God).

So, in both Isaiah and in Genesis, Lucifer states that one could be like God and what was the result?

Lucifer was being defiant of God in both instances. He was being deceptive in both instances. He was using his own knowledge of the pre-mortal life in both instances to both deceive and to blind men and bind them and to “lead them captive at his will”.

In the garden of Eden, Satan was sneering at God’s plan of salvation by tempting Eve with words that sneered at that plan. That means he thought the plan wouldn’t work, and that he would try with all his deceptive powers to make the plan of salvation not work.

Adam and Eve being cast out of Eden, and Lucifer being cast out of Heaven.

But the conclusion you drew about the “why” of Adam and Eve’s being cast out is incorrect. Moses has given us the “why” by inspiration, and it wasn’t “because they followed Satan into thinking they could be “like God””.

John wrote that God’s plan includes becoming “sons of God” and becoming “like Christ”. So John directly refutes this notion that Satan was telling all the world (through telling Eve) that he has correct knowledge that “no one can be like God”.

So as long as she thought about it long and hard and her motives were pure it was the best action for her to disobey God and eat the fruit to make herself wiser?

Her decision had consequences. She understood that “knowledge of good and evil” could lead to the gaining of wisdom, which was her primary motive.

I can think it was the “best action” given the circumstances of the garden of Eden, and you and others can think it wasn’t; but it is clear that

1. God had a fore-knowledge that Eve would be tempted by Satan, and that she would eat the forbidden fruit.
2. God allowed Satan to tempt Eve, and had a plan in place already for eventually “rescuing” her and Adam from the consequences of their disobedience to God.

The serpent tricked me, but I didn’t believe him?? What kind of logic is that?!

She stated two factual things that had happened, and the serpent had indeed “beguiled her”.

She didn’t have to have believed everything Satan told her in order to make a decision about eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

God didn’t tell either her or Adam that they were being punished for having believed that “they could become like God”. There is not the slightest reason to believe from that account that Eve thought by eating the fruit she could “become like God”. (Other than jumping to that conclusion by being led on by Satan’s deceptive, sneering words of temptation to her alone.)

 

[ParkerD]

If there was a pre-existence in which we already chose God over Satan, why come to earth to weed out more of God’s children?

mwok,

You answered your own question. (But it was only “a few more” who would be totally weeded out.)

It is also answered in John 17:12, by the Savior in His intercessory prayer. Only a few more are “lost” and become like the son of perdition, because of their own personal choices to fight God. The rest are part of the rescue plan which is a successful plan–the plan of salvation.

It is also answered in 1 Corinthians 15:40-44 and 54-57. We came here for us to make choices, participate in gaining wisdom, and thus choose which kind of body we want when we are resurrected.

 

[theidler]

1voice,

I don’t agree with the words “coming out of God’s own being”, and I disagree that just because there is no direct reference to “any action on Adam’s part” that the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Adam didn’t exist in any form prior to the creation described in Genesis 1 and 2. Just because he received a name on earth doesn’t mean he hadn’t already been created as a spirit. What I agreed with was “came from God as a direct result of God’s own creative power.”

This life has a “memory veil” drawn over any memory we would have of pre-mortal life and what occurred there.

It would be contrary to God’s purposes for that veil, if He gave us the direct information (which would thus be “proof” for us and we wouldn’t need the opportunity to draw upon faith to ask Him and thus develop a personal, one-to-one relationship) that we lived with Him in a pre-mortal life, as spirits.

The words “the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” have specific meaning and application to the idea of pre-mortal existence. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) So do the words “accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.” (Revelation 12:10) Especially in light of Revelation 22:9 (“of thy brethren”).

What are your grounds for believing in the “memory veil” idea? It sounds to me like you’re merely ressurecting old Platonic concepts.